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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    Why don't you wait with you're DB untill you pop BW? Last time i checked it benefits from BW, same with aMoC.
    What do you think about this?
    I just checked that stuff myself, and came to different results (was a few days ago, so if it hasn't changed with yesterdays updates, it should still hold true)
    Dire Beast does not profit from BW. nor does Stampede. and they don't cost any focus, so there's absolutly no point in casting them under BW.

    aMoC does profit from BW, because it counts as a spell cast by you.
    for those who don't know: Spells do damage not according to a snapshot of your gear(and stats/proccs) when casting the spell, but to the current stats, which get updated and recalculated every hit!
    example: You cast BW and aMoC simultaneously. aMoC will only cost 30focus, and do 10% increased dmg for the first 10 hits, and after BW expires, aMoC will also do its normal damage again. similarly you can cast aMoC 10sec befor BW, and aMoC will do 10% increased damage at ticks 11-20. (then when BW is active)

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    I just checked that stuff myself, and came to different results (was a few days ago, so if it hasn't changed with yesterdays updates, it should still hold true)
    Dire Beast does not profit from BW. nor does Stampede. and they don't cost any focus, so there's absolutly no point in casting them under BW.

    aMoC does profit from BW, because it counts as a spell cast by you.
    for those who don't know: Spells do damage not according to a snapshot of your gear(and stats/proccs) when casting the spell, but to the current stats, which get updated and recalculated every hit!
    example: You cast BW and aMoC simultaneously. aMoC will only cost 30focus, and do 10% increased dmg for the first 10 hits, and after BW expires, aMoC will also do its normal damage again. similarly you can cast aMoC 10sec befor BW, and aMoC will do 10% increased damage at ticks 11-20. (then when BW is active)
    Well fuck me side ways, i knew that SP didn't benefit from BW but the rest sure was new.
    Where did you read this btw?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    Well fuck me side ways, i knew that SP didn't benefit from BW but the rest sure was new.
    Where did you read this btw?
    ingame :-) take off everything that can procc dmg enhancing stuff, and you will see that your dire beast will always hit for exactly the same amount (give or take 1dmg, but as its AP dependant, its very static) and try it out yourself. thats what I did a few mins ago.
    it's always a good idea to not just blindly believe everything you read somewhere, go and try it out yourself!

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    Why don't you wait with you're DB untill you pop BW? Last time i checked it benefits from BW, same with aMoC.
    What do you think about this?

    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=40/ Bestial Wrath, Kill Command, Dire Beast, Glaive Toss, A Murder of Crows, Arcane Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Command, Readiness, Kill Command, Dire Beast, Glaive Toss, Arcane Shot, Bestial Wrath, Serpent Sting

    The whole opener ->

    1. HM/MD
    2. Pre pot
    3. SrS + Orc racial
    4. RF + Stampede
    5. Spam the macro
    6. Throw KC when the macro is over and wait with the second RF untill BW expires

    In this i get 3 KC's in the first BW and 2 in the second by delaying the second BW with 1 second.
    Using a castsequence macro will never work in real fights. Many of the fights currently require you to time things differently, depending on each boss you are on. You won't get your ideal opener every time.

    The reason I pop DB in BW is 1.) If I delay BW by another second there is a good chance I lose out on some Pre Pot time. and 2.) While DB does update dynamically, it does so very slowly. After much testing the update for it seems to be every 2 seconds, which is a long time depending on when your pet swings it can be longer. It's simply easier to do it during cooldowns to guarantee DB has the buffs the entire duration.
    Last edited by Arktem; 2012-11-14 at 10:26 PM.

  5. #45
    Only bad thing about using cobra shot and dire beast during bestial wrath is that by not using arcane shots in their place you are losing out on potential cobra strike procs. Any cobra strike procsduring bestial wrath would also gain the extra 20% damage from bestial wrath. Only speculating/guessing... I have no data to back this up thought.

    I sometimes wonder if Glaive toss might not be worth using during bestial wrath for the same reason.... but I suppose that since arcane shot only has a 15% chance to proc cobra strikes and glaive toss does substantially more damage it's probably correct to still use glaive toss.

    For those that aren't sure what cobra strikes are:
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=53260

    "You have a 15% chance when you hit with Arcane Shot to cause your pet's next 2 Basic Attacks to critically hit. This effect can stack up to 6 times"

  6. #46
    any chance we can have an update opener for 5.1 ?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by andolee View Post
    any chance we can have an update opener for 5.1 ?
    The default opener, I say default because some fights will change it, that I linked on the second page of this thread is not only still the best, but has also been buffed significantly with the SrS changes.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...fed-about-time


    Quote Originally Posted by Arktem View Post
    My guild does not make our WoL public. Many top Hunters have no logs right now due to currently being in the middle of progression.




    Already talked to you about this, but he appears to be correct after some testing. Honestly, I didn't think to test SrS on the new trinkets as SrS has always procced trinkets in the past. The real question now is whether or not it procs your Scope. With that said the priority is still not lowered. SrS is still more Damage than an AS, assuming you refresh it before it expires. This video has quite a few problems with it, not including the SrS, and I am in the process of making the next video, much higher quality, that will fix all of these things. For now, here is a rough idea of the opener I am currently playing with.

    -10 Set up Traps
    -5 MD
    -1 Prepot
    0 SrS
    +1 MoC
    +2 Stampede/Rapid Fire
    +3 KC/Cooldowns
    +4 Dire Beast
    +5 Glaive Toss
    +6 AS
    +7 CoS
    +8 CoS
    +9 KC
    Readiness
    +10 KC
    +11 DB
    +12 GT
    +13 CoS (Before your first RF expires)
    +14 AS/BW (First expires here)
    +15 AS
    +16 KC
    +17 AS
    +18 AS
    +19 AS
    +20 AS
    +21 AS
    +22 KC
    Once BW Expires, find a good place to pop your second Rapid Fire. By this point you should also have 5 stacks of Focus Fire, which can also be popped (Not with Rapid fire though)

    Use your second Rapid fire to easily gain the focus cost for your second MoC, without losing any KC's.


    If you want to see the opener in action, you can find our H Empress kill this week at

    http://www.twitch.tv/arktem_wow/b/343779936

    Skip to 1:01:15

    Here is the WoL

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=3650#Arktem

    If you break it down you can see that I easily burst over 350k, which is lower than usual (Can easily get 400k), but the important factor is that while it bursts very well, it also has much more sustained damage than other openers.
    Last edited by Arktem; 2012-12-01 at 04:39 AM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Arktem View Post
    Using a castsequence macro will never work in real fights. Many of the fights currently require you to time things differently, depending on each boss you are on. You won't get your ideal opener every time.
    I disagree, it works well on every boss i have encountered and we are at 6/6 HC vaults, 5/6 HC Hof and the only fight that needs timing differently is stone guards but the vast majority plays SV on them anyways.
    I might add that i'm ranked among the top 15 on several of the fights on WoL as BM.
    This is how the macro looks today ->

    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=40/ Bestial Wrath, Kill Command, A Murder of Crows, Dire Beast, Glaive Toss, Arcane Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Command, Readiness, Kill Command, Glaive Toss, Dire Beast, Arcane Shot, Bestial Wrath, Serpent Sting

    So it's a 12 seconds macro and this is how the whole opener looks ->

    1. HM
    2. MD/Pre pot
    3. SrS + Orc racial
    4. RF + Stampade
    5. Macro spamming
    6. Using KC directly after the SrS are casted in the macro and then wait with the second RF untill the BW expires

    This way there is no human error, the macro will ALWAYS be faster and more accurate then a person doing it manually.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    I disagree, it works well on every boss i have encountered and we are at 6/6 HC vaults, 5/6 HC Hof and the only fight that needs timing differently is stone guards but the vast majority plays SV on them anyways.
    I might add that i'm ranked among the top 15 on several of the fights on WoL as BM.
    This is how the macro looks today ->

    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=40/ Bestial Wrath, Kill Command, A Murder of Crows, Dire Beast, Glaive Toss, Arcane Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Command, Readiness, Kill Command, Glaive Toss, Dire Beast, Arcane Shot, Bestial Wrath, Serpent Sting

    So it's a 12 seconds macro and this is how the whole opener looks ->

    1. HM
    2. MD/Pre pot
    3. SrS + Orc racial
    4. RF + Stampade
    5. Macro spamming
    6. Using KC directly after the SrS are casted in the macro and then wait with the second RF untill the BW expires

    This way there is no human error, the macro will ALWAYS be faster and more accurate then a person doing it manually.
    I might add I have multiple 1-3 parses. It's irrelevant to this discussion.

    Your opener/macro has many things wrong with it.

    1.) your Blood Fury is losing 3 seconds of stack time with your BW for no reason.

    2.) Using MoC within BW is pointless, at least the first.

    3.) You're letting your initial SrS drop with your macro. Especially considering the recent buffs, letting SrS fall at all will result in a DPS loss.

    Fights like Zor'lok that require the boss to move to a platform completely ruin this opener. Garalon is another good example where this macro just doesn't work well.

    The problem with macro's is that the macro can't change with the encounter. You're going to have to have your abilities bound anyways, as that macro will not work for cooldown popping in the middle of the fight.

    Since I can't seem to find any kind of Armory from you, I wouldn't mind seeing one so I could break it down.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Arktem View Post
    I might add I have multiple 1-3 parses. It's irrelevant to this discussion.

    Your opener/macro has many things wrong with it.

    1.) your Blood Fury is losing 3 seconds of stack time with your BW for no reason.

    2.) Using MoC within BW is pointless, at least the first.

    3.) You're letting your initial SrS drop with your macro. Especially considering the recent buffs, letting SrS fall at all will result in a DPS loss.

    Fights like Zor'lok that require the boss to move to a platform completely ruin this opener. Garalon is another good example where this macro just doesn't work well.

    The problem with macro's is that the macro can't change with the encounter. You're going to have to have your abilities bound anyways, as that macro will not work for cooldown popping in the middle of the fight.

    Since I can't seem to find any kind of Armory from you, I wouldn't mind seeing one so I could break it down.
    Oh my bad, the orc racial should not be with SrS, i pop that together with RF and stampede, that's not better tho so thank's for pointing that out.
    Why is using MoC with BW pointless? They will do 10% more dmg while BW is active and i will save a shit load of focus by using it when BW is up.
    And how big dps loss are we talking about when it comes to SrS? Isn't it dynamic like MoC?
    And the macro is ment to only be used once every fight and that's at the start.
    On garalon and Zor'lok it has to be done manually tho.
    Last edited by Rusk; 2012-12-02 at 12:01 AM.

  11. #51
    He means that AmoC is pointless in BW because you can rather just use an arcane shot/cobra shot inside the BW for more damage, since AmoC gets the buff from BW anyway for it's (the bws) full duration.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Rullis View Post
    He means that AmoC is pointless in BW because you can rather just use an arcane shot/cobra shot inside the BW for more damage, since AmoC gets the buff from BW anyway for it's (the bws) full duration.
    Yea i know that, but since i haven't found any reliable data on this i choose to use MoC with BW and loose 1 sec on it with 10% increased dmg and get it for half the focus cost instead.
    I really doubt that 1 sec extra with 10% to moc is better then the 30 focus you save by using it under BW.

  13. #53
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    Another thing is that spending half your focus bar on MoC right before your first BW doesn't matter because between Dire Beast and the focus reduction of BW, you'll have a net positive focus change practically, especially if you use a cobra shot to refresh your SrS in there.

    Is DB a snap shot ability? If I pop it before BW, will it not update to 10%+ damage when I pop BW? DB does count as *my* damage.

    Right now I'm using this opening:

    1. SrS
    2. DB
    3. Stampede/RF
    4. BW/KC
    5. AMoC
    6. GT
    7. AS
    8. AS
    9. AS
    10. KC
    11. Readiness/KC
    12. GT
    13. AS
    14. CoS as BW is expiring, potentially a couple to get SrS up to a good duration depending on fight
    15. DB
    16. BW/AS
    17. KC
    18-22. AS
    23: KC
    24.-26 AS, BW falls off
    27. RF into normal rotation. CoS
    29ish: KC
    30-33: CoSx2
    34: AS
    35. AMoC

    Obviously I see where this can be tightened up, my first AMoC isn't under BW the whole 20s, neither is DB. But it works for me and makes sense for most fights.

    I obviously left off the pre-pots/MDs/HMs, etc. The only issue I have with this rotation is that it puts my AMoC about 20s behind my BW CD, but depending on the fight, I find I get the same number of AMoCs delaying that 20s, and I can manage the 60 focus cost fine-ish. With 4 pc, I might consider delaying BW 5s to get AMoC off right at the tail end of the BW, but currently it doesn't seem worth it.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    Oh my bad, the orc racial should not be with SrS, i pop that together with RF and stampede, that's not better tho so thank's for pointing that out.
    Why is using MoC with BW pointless? They will do 10% more dmg while BW is active and i will save a shit load of focus by using it when BW is up.
    And how big dps loss are we talking about when it comes to SrS? Isn't it dynamic like MoC?
    And the macro is ment to only be used once every fight and that's at the start.
    On garalon and Zor'lok it has to be done manually tho.
    Popping your first MoC with BW is pointless for two reasons. 1.) MoC updates dynamically, so any DPS buffs you gain will be applied to MoC regardless of whether or not you use it before or after MoC. You're right in the 10% more damage, but it doesn't matter when you use MoC. 2.) The Focus cost of MoC is 100% irrelevant at the start, and your 2x DB and RF will give you more than enough focus to be focus capped. It comes down to not wasting a GCD during your BW, and while it's not huge by any means, any kind of Min/Max adds up in the end.

    With any opener that uses SrS, you have to use either CoS or another SrS before/after the initial one expires. I use a CoS during the opener, always while RF is still up, because with that haste boost my CoS cast is nearly 1 second anyways (Near our GCD while using AS), and the damage of CoS + SrS refresh is more than 1 AS. So with this rotation specifically you won't see as high of burst as say someone who just spams AS, but your sustained will be much higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rullis View Post
    He means that AmoC is pointless in BW because you can rather just use an arcane shot/cobra shot inside the BW for more damage, since AmoC gets the buff from BW anyway for it's (the bws) full duration.
    ^^ This

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    Yea i know that, but since i haven't found any reliable data on this i choose to use MoC with BW and loose 1 sec on it with 10% increased dmg and get it for half the focus cost instead.
    I really doubt that 1 sec extra with 10% to moc is better then the 30 focus you save by using it under BW.
    I said this in my first response, but I'll say again. Focus cost of spells is 100% irrelevant in the initial opener (As BM of course)

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Another thing is that spending half your focus bar on MoC right before your first BW doesn't matter because between Dire Beast and the focus reduction of BW, you'll have a net positive focus change practically, especially if you use a cobra shot to refresh your SrS in there.

    Is DB a snap shot ability? If I pop it before BW, will it not update to 10%+ damage when I pop BW? DB does count as *my* damage.

    Right now I'm using this opening:

    1. SrS
    2. DB
    3. Stampede/RF
    4. BW/KC
    5. AMoC
    6. GT
    7. AS
    8. AS
    9. AS
    10. KC
    11. Readiness/KC
    12. GT
    13. AS
    14. CoS as BW is expiring, potentially a couple to get SrS up to a good duration depending on fight
    15. DB
    16. BW/AS
    17. KC
    18-22. AS
    23: KC
    24.-26 AS, BW falls off
    27. RF into normal rotation. CoS
    29ish: KC
    30-33: CoSx2
    34: AS
    35. AMoC

    Obviously I see where this can be tightened up, my first AMoC isn't under BW the whole 20s, neither is DB. But it works for me and makes sense for most fights.

    I obviously left off the pre-pots/MDs/HMs, etc. The only issue I have with this rotation is that it puts my AMoC about 20s behind my BW CD, but depending on the fight, I find I get the same number of AMoCs delaying that 20s, and I can manage the 60 focus cost fine-ish. With 4 pc, I might consider delaying BW 5s to get AMoC off right at the tail end of the BW, but currently it doesn't seem worth it.
    DB is not a snapshot, it works just like MoC and updates dynamically. The issue with DB is that the best doesn't attack very quickly, and you can easily lose 1-2 attacks within your buffs if you miss time your CD's.

    Your opener seems fine. If it works for you I would definitely keep using it. My only issue with your opener is that you delay MoC a long time.

    Whenever I was mapping out this opener I took many things into consideration. 1.) Cooldowns 2.) Prepot 3.) DPC (Damage per cast) (NOT DPF Damage per focus because, like I've said, focus is irrelevant)

    MoC and DB are are two highest Damage Per Cast abilities. Therefor they should have, roughly, highest priority when choosing what spells to cast. MoC being our longest attack (30 seconds), I opt to cast it first so that is benefits from as much of my initial Pre pot as possible. The same thing applies to Stampede.

    DB is the one ability I still haven't found a home for. I would really like to pop it before BW and cooldowns, but I just can't delay my cooldowns anymore or lose out on my Pre Pot, so I am forced to use it when I do for that reason.

  15. #55
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    I've considered moving AMoC higher up the list. I just haven't done it because we're working on fights where I'm not really using AMoC.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Arktem View Post
    Popping your first MoC with BW is pointless for two reasons. 1.) MoC updates dynamically, so any DPS buffs you gain will be applied to MoC regardless of whether or not you use it before or after MoC. You're right in the 10% more damage, but it doesn't matter when you use MoC. 2.) The Focus cost of MoC is 100% irrelevant at the start, and your 2x DB and RF will give you more than enough focus to be focus capped. It comes down to not wasting a GCD during your BW, and while it's not huge by any means, any kind of Min/Max adds up in the end.
    So this would be a better alternative then? ->

    1 - HM
    2 - MD + Pot
    2 - RF + BW
    3 - aMoC
    4 - Macro

    New macro ->

    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=40/ Blood Fury, Bestial Wrath, Kill Command, Dire Beast, Glaive Toss, Arcane Shot, Arcane Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Command, Readiness, Kill Command, Glaive Toss, Serpent Sting, Dire Beast, Bestial Wrath

    In this SrS don't fall off 1 sec like it did in the earlier one at the cost of 1 arcane shot.
    Also, would you put the second dire beast before the second glaive toss instead? This would result in DB being up 1 second longer but GT would not get the benefit of the first BW.
    Or if you don't mind, how would you're castsequence macro look if you used one?
    Last edited by Rusk; 2012-12-02 at 12:27 PM.

  17. #57
    >Kill command before BW

    Yes use you strong pet skill before the damage buff from BW that is smart.

    i like to macro all my CD on BW so i just push 1 key and i am full buffed (synap, trinket, BW (of course), Kill command (if it is off CD), rapid fire and rabid) maybe i will add Stampade but i dunno if will work fine...

    plus Lyxn rush is shit in 5.1 i will change it for blink strike or Crows

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post

    Right now I'm using this opening:

    1. SrS
    2. DB
    3. Stampede/RF
    4. BW/KC
    5. AMoC
    6. GT
    7. AS
    8. AS
    9. AS
    10. KC
    11. Readiness/KC
    12. GT
    13. AS
    14. CoS as BW is expiring, potentially a couple to get SrS up to a good duration depending on fight
    15. DB
    16. BW/AS
    17. KC
    18-22. AS
    23: KC
    24.-26 AS, BW falls off
    27. RF into normal rotation. CoS
    29ish: KC
    30-33: CoSx2
    34: AS
    35. AMoC
    This is exactly what I do but I don't find the time to use Cobra shot to refresh SRS I punched the target dummy for the past half hour and the only way I can get Cobra shot to refresh SRS is if i stand right on top the dummy. When Travel time is taken to account, My SRS always falls off. And that's with me casting Cobra shot Right after GT, but in your opener you find time to arcane shot then cast Cobra Shot after your GT. I don't see that happening on my end. Unless you stack haste of something. With 10% attack speed buff and my rapid fire I'm at 1.3sec cast time on cobra shot.

    With how shitty cobra shot hits, I re apply serpent sting since the focus cost is now retard low. It refreshes at 1 second left so I don't lose any ticks based on the new dot refreshing system. Hopefully our SRS works on that system, I can't verify this.
    Last edited by danightryder; 2012-12-03 at 03:21 AM.
    I want to have a child and use it as a pulling tool in dungeons.

  19. #59
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    Yeah, I actually posted this before the hotfix went live a few days ago, I think it might make sense to just reapply SrS now when it falls off. But definitely reapply it, it hits pretty hard even in BM now.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    So this would be a better alternative then? ->

    1 - HM
    2 - MD + Pot
    2 - RF + BW
    3 - aMoC
    4 - Macro

    New macro ->

    #showtooltip
    /castsequence reset=40/ Blood Fury, Bestial Wrath, Kill Command, Dire Beast, Glaive Toss, Arcane Shot, Arcane Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Command, Readiness, Kill Command, Glaive Toss, Serpent Sting, Dire Beast, Bestial Wrath

    In this SrS don't fall off 1 sec like it did in the earlier one at the cost of 1 arcane shot.
    Also, would you put the second dire beast before the second glaive toss instead? This would result in DB being up 1 second longer but GT would not get the benefit of the first BW.
    Or if you don't mind, how would you're castsequence macro look if you used one?
    Swap out BW with Stampede. So 2- RF + Stampede. BW is off the GCD so it can easily be macro's into other abilities.

    The issue I have with your macro is that... no matter what you do you can only press it so fast, and Macroing shots together is not an option. By pressing the macro, shots that normally wouldn't have a GCD and could be macro'd into other shots can't anymore.

    Other than that issue, I think your macro looks fine.



    Not going to quote anyone in particular, just assume if you post within the last 7 comments that this is directed at you.

    The limiting factor in any BM opener is not Focus. As I've said... way to many times.... focus is 100% irrelevant. You will not run out during your opener. The opposite is also true. You WILL focus cap. I, like many of you, have been taught for years now that you CANNOT FOCUS CAP. And this still holds true 90% of the time, but we have to get out of the mindset that an overabundance of focus is going to make or break out damage, it won't.

    When trying to maximize you have to think about maximizing your GCD's, and maximizing the damage each shot you use in those said GCD's.

    I will take reapplying SrS that danightryder and eschatological are talking about as an example. I will also use a breakdown of my own damage (Yours could change slightly)

    14.4k Regular Hits with SrS and 32k Crits (Roughly)

    20.3k Regular Hits with CoB and 44k Crits (Roughly)

    33.3k Regular Hits with AS and 68K Crits (Roughly)

    Again, taking focus cost out of the equation, you're just looking at these shots for their Damage and Casting Time. Obviously AS has a 1 second GCD, while CoB has a cast time. The big factor here is that when you take your initial haste boost from Rapid Fire into consideration, your CoS also has, very nearly, a 1 second cast time. This is even with extremely low haste.

    So, if we just assume both AS and CoS are 1 second (Under Rapid Fire), you merely break down the damage of each and compare. In this case obviously AS will win out directly, as CoS damage is small in comparison, but if you also take the two extended ticks (+6 seconds on SrS) into account that you also gain by refreshing, even assuming neither of them crit you are still dealing more damage than a single AS, by nearly 15k (At least for me) take into account that generally raid buffed I have at least 30% crit rating, not including the extra crit I have during my opener with Trinkets and such, you can almost guarantee one of the three shots, CoS, SrS ticks, will crit making the gap even wider.

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