Education Blows

[ares1023]

Will say that the topic is not irrelevant to engineering, engineering is a very broad field, so while this talks about stuff that may not concern your focus in engineering, it may be very relevant to others. Otherwise, I know exactly what your talking about, I have taken so many classes that I feel do not pertain to my major, Business Administration. I have taken classes that my adviser assigned me to take that did not even count towards the major requirements to graduate.

College is a business, that not only gets a steady stream of income from customers, but also treats it's customers like employees instead. Colleges have all these backdoor deals with the textbook companies that help to make us go broke too, I can't tell you how many times I have bought the new textbook because the teacher requires you too, then I find out later that I could have gotten the same textbook 3 editions older, that had the exact same contents. I also have a friend in engineering that is going to school in NYC, and he is I think in his 7th year because they didn't accept his previous college credits, made him take classes that weren't required, and not too mention the difficulty of the math courses you have to take.

But you know what, the education you get in College is still better than what you get in K-12 in public schools. That system is totally screwed up, not only with the lack of quality in the content taught, but the teachers as well. Go watch the movie, Waiting for Superman, it is a real eye opener that talks about stuff many probably don't know about, like the "Rubber Room" in NY, and things like the "Lemon Dance" in other states.

[morbidone]

Ahhh, strawmen.. so we've slid back into logical fallacies.

The purpose of professional ethics is to teach ethical thought and self-awareness of exactly what makes up the backbone of our moral decisions. It also teaches the importance of said ethics in daily life as a professional. Professional ethics is, therefore, technical knowledge (unless you somehow think you're smarter than Kant, Artistotle, Bentham, Hume, and a dozen other people combined?). You can, of course, gain such technical knowledge somewhere else.. but it is by no means spontaneous. Just like you could gain engineering knowledge without going to college for engineering.

So no. You do not know professional ethics as a standard. So the burden of proof is, again, on you.

What logical fallacy. There are no strawmen here...

You just don't have an answer, so you googled logical fallacies!
I know that, because it took you 10 minutes to reply with some BS that doesn't even make sense.


The burden of proof is on them to show that taking ethical courses makes one more likely to make ethical decisions.

[Kasierith]

What logical fallacy. There are no strawmen here...

You just don't have an answer, so you googled logical fallacies!

Your line: "Unless you are arguing that everyone who doesn't take an ethics course is complete unethical."

Strawman: "A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."

I never made such a statement, or anything of the sort. Yet you misrepresented my post in order to attack it. Hence, a strawman.


Also, seeing as I gave you an answer to your post despite it being a strawman, I'm guessing you're having trouble with that whole... reading thing.

[morbidone]

Note the word UNLESS. If you aren't making that argument, which was a laughably bad one, then disregard.

Now the semantics is over, show me that study!

[Deleted]

Educated population is a threat to the head(s) of state.
Now thing why republicans do what they do.

[tiporispit]

There is nothing in this country that can be construed as education. The curriculum should have 12 years of logic, government and finance. You shouldn't graduate until you can recite the Constitution word for word. Maybe then, those in power would have to deal with citizens, instead of sheep.

[Kasierith]

Not the word UNLESS. If you aren't making that argument, then disregard.

Now the semantics is over, show me that study!

And now we don't know the meaning of a rhetorical statement. Hapless ignorance is quite bemusing, really. And you still didn't respond to my post.. it's sad... it's like you don't have the technical knowledge to engage in a coherent conversation.

As for your study, lets see...

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journa...1357&show=html

"The findings indicate that providing ethics courses reshapes the ethical thinking of future accountants and thus are likely to improve the local ethical climate amongst professionals in the field. Results indicate significant improvements in cognitive moral development, although many students continue to apply conventional (Stage 4) reasoning skills when dealing with issues. The research provides a positive signal to the accounting faculties indicating that their effort in inculcating ethical values is worthwhile and this endeavour has to continue."

Mod Warning: Watch the personal attacks.

[Someudontno]

There is nothing in this country that can be construed as education. The curriculum should have 12 years of logic, government and finance. You shouldn't graduate until you can recite the Constitution word for word. Maybe then, those in power would have to deal with citizens, instead of sheep.

Ouch, I don't think any one person could do that in its original text without the aid of index cards or something. The Constitution is a fairly large document. Also, just because you can recite something word for word does not mean that you can interpret it in any way.

[cmennare]

This is one of the problems with the US educational system. It is being continually eroded and diluted with information that does not pertain to the degree in question. This info is required for political correctness that is common in the workplace now. So while it seems like garbage to learn it may help those without the proper people skills get and maintain a job in the future.

[morbidone]

And now we don't know the meaning of a rhetorical statement. Hapless ignorance is quite bemusing, really. And you still didn't respond to my post.. it's sad... it's like you don't have the technical knowledge to engage in a coherent conversation.

As for your study, lets see...

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journa...1357&show=html

"The findings indicate that providing ethics courses reshapes the ethical thinking of future accountants and thus are likely to improve the local ethical climate amongst professionals in the field. Results indicate significant improvements in cognitive moral development, although many students continue to apply conventional (Stage 4) reasoning skills when dealing with issues. The research provides a positive signal to the accounting faculties indicating that their effort in inculcating ethical values is worthwhile and this endeavour has to continue."

I did not misrepresent your post, thus no strawman, and that study isnt about egr.

[Kasierith]

I did not misrepresent your post, thus no strawman, and that study isnt about egr.

Than go back and respond to it. You can't, can you.

So you are saying that professional ethics somehow benefit accountants but not engineers? Well, that's a pretty clear demonstration of cognitive dissonance, but very well.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/loui/www/hashemian.pdf

"Students who had completed the ethics course considered more options before making a decision, and they responded consistently despite changes in the cases. For both cases, even when they were not directly involved, they were more likely to feel responsible and take corrective action. Students who were less successful in the ethics course gave answers similar to students who had not taken the course. This latter group of students seemed to have weaker
feelings of responsibility: they would say that a problem was “not my business.” It appears that instruction in ethics can increase awareness of responsibility, knowledge about how to handle a difficult situation, and confidence in taking action."

Face it. You have literally nothing to stand on.

[morbidone]

Respond to what? We were arguing who the burden of proof was on, and I won.

[Fuzzzie]

Watch the personal attacks and bickering guys.

[Kasierith]

Respond to what? We were arguing who the burden of proof was on, and I won.

You asked for a study showing the connection between professional ethics classes and ethical thought. I have. Is there anything else or?

[Absolem]

I don't really see the problem here to be honest.

[morbidone]

You asked for a study showing the connection between professional ethics classes and ethical thought. I have. Is there anything else or?

Ok, ok, you showed a study. You win!

[Moon-Man]

You should not learn that you dont need.

But If you do, you gain more knowledge. The more you know, the better.

[Badpaladin]

If wells was in this thread he'd be throwing a fit over the fallacious logic, ignorance and general ass-hattery of someone presenting the case that courses that deal with this exact sort of attitude are unnecessary and below him. At the very least, someone who's worth their while as an engineering major would not care if he thought the class was bullshit, but still strive for an A anyways because success in everything is more important than whining about what isn't fun.

Here's a fun anecdote. One of my part-time jobs (if you'd call it that) to help pay for the wonderful high cost of education in this country is working in a tutor center at a local community college. I've noticed a correlation: the kids who come in and "hate" their class and "think it's useless to their major" are almost always course-repeaters, while the kids who give a legitimate effort are almost always carrying competitive GPA's for eventual university transfer. If I were betting on if a student's GPA was above or below a 3.0 based solely on that criteria, I'd have already paid for my education.

If you have to summarize a short article about something that doesn't interest you, make like Littlefinger and When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, best close your eyes, get it over with. Don't make threads where you insult other users, play "forum games" and seek only to argue rather than actually learn something from other people.

closan