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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Sareth's Avatar
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    What is harder, 10 or 25?

    I'm having this discussion with a friend. My guild has switched from 25 man to 10 man, and we're progressing much faster. But which do you think is harder? In 10 man there is more of a chance of failure if people screw up because there is less people, but on 25 man it's harder to organize. If I had my way we'd be back to 25 because the more people the better, I think, and it feels more special. I'd like to think they are both equal, because they are supposed to be, but I keep having the feeling that 10 man isn't proper raiding.
    'Lord Sargeras, sweep your molten fist through this world, so that it may be reborn in flames and darkness!'
    'So the light's vaunted justice has finally arrived.'
    'Boldly said. But I remain...unconvinced.'

    My Warrior

  2. #2
    25 man is harder on alot of fights atm. Harder to coordinate, more hectic, harder to organise and from what I've seen tighter on enrage. Also any fight that requires room to spread out or move is harder on 25 man. (Feng the Accursed comes to mind).
    Blizzard wanted them to be balanced though they failed.

  3. #3
    So 25m is harder to organise + you need more people + the fight are harder ..... and yet morez guilds have killed shek'zeer in 25m.
    Makes sense.

    On a side note : i know other things have to be taken into account but imo they are rightly runed to be equal-ish, some fight will be harder for 10m some others for 25 but overall the difference isn't very noticeable (in terme of pure fight)

  4. #4
    Here's my opinoin and from my experience.

    25m generally is more difficult to organize. Rarely will an encounter be more difficult on 25 man due to mechanics. Historically, because of less bodies and tighter tuning due to that fact, 10 man has had harder times with Enrage timers. I don't agree with Pieterman at all. 25 man is harder to organize. The mechanics are usually made easier to handble by more bodies. (Stone Guard, before they nerfed the chains is a perfect example.)

  5. #5
    please for the love of god not another one of these topics all they do is start arguments

  6. #6
    Well, I think 100men raids are the hardest.
    lol @ 25men... sorry, but even if we are heroes, 25men are never enough to kill Yogg-Saron, Arthas, Ragnaros, Deathwing or Sha of Fear... don't understand why it's more epic to kill a boss with 15 more men. It would be epic if we were 100 oder 1000, but telling me 25men is more epic then 10men is just silly.

  7. #7
    25's will always be harder. Statistically this is fact. But it's not harder in terms of mechanics. Just harder because it's harder to organize 25 people, and to get them to all play at the top of their game.

    I was in US 221 guild for H DW kill and we were 25's.
    I was in a 10 man prior to that up until 5/8H.
    25's took longer to kill(more attempts/more nights) than in the 10 because in 25's you have more people with the potential to make a mistake.

    For the people saying that 25s are easier because more guilds have killed heroic bosses in 25s; You're wrong.
    Top tier 25 guilds usually have players who are just better because they've been in 25s since it was actually a "harder" difficulty.
    They're just used to that environment and playing to the top of their potential.
    Last edited by xsublymonalx; 2012-11-02 at 01:21 PM.
    I am American mentally, with Japanese tendencies.

  8. #8
    I understand that the idea would be "mo' money mo' prollums." But in this case, money is people.

    Mo' people do usually make mo' prollums. But to be a competitive 10 you have to have 10 -solid- ass players. I don't understand how 10 mans are less glorified than 25s as probably 70% of the time the fights are more challenging to manage everything on 10.

  9. #9
    "Isn't the same" is a fact, to attempt to argue over it is silly.

    "10 man isn't proper raiding" is rellevant and no matter how much you will discuss over it with the other side you will never manage one or the other to get convinced on the oposite.

    "25 Is harder" is also relevant but here a few things can be discussed.
    If you see a 10 man and a 25 man with excactly the same average skill per person and excactly the same variance in skill between the best and worse player, in a fight that is 100% tuned then they should be equally difficult although 25 would still be slower.

    Obviously you have to make too many assumptions to reach to that conclusion.
    First off, the fights are never 100% tuned. Others are harder in 10 man and others in 25 with obvious results.
    Secondly the variance of skill in a 25 is obviously much larger between the best and the last person. So even in teams with the same average skill there will be some ppl in 25 that are worse than the worse player in the equally skilled 10 man group and will screw things over for all.
    And last but not least. It is infinately easier to find or create a group with decent average skill if you have to put only 10 people together as oposed to 25.

    Put all those things together and you know why 25 is slower and harder during progress. Not rocket science really, but certain 10 man raiders prefer to turn a blind eye because they like to think by taking the assumptions i mentioned above for granded.

    All in all this hole thing is a mess, and the proof can be found in the millions of posts on those same subjects since changes were announced, both here in mmo, other non official wow related sites and official wow forums.

    I am doing the only thing that i can, by asking for this model to be changed. Blizzard lately changed their point of view on the matter and stop playing dump. Now whats left to be seen is if they will actually gonna do something, what that something would be, and if it is too late already for the situation to be rationalized.
    My opinion is that they should be ready with the changes before expansion launch, as they were ready to announce changes in all previous expansions.
    Right now, even if changes will help 25s, they would be very disturbing for the other part of the player base.

  10. #10
    Some fights are easier, or have more possible ways to do it on one mode vs another.

    Gara'jai is considered harder on 10 man due to requireing 3 healers(whereas 25man you can get away with 4) and a strict enrage timer. Will has the option of using the CC method on 25man, where that is not an option on 10 man. 25man puts less pressure per person due to everyone being worth roughly half that of 10 man. If 1 dps dies in 10 man, that's 10% of your raid, if 1 dies in 25 man, that's ~4% of your raid. Huge difference. In heroic level raiding, this is irrelevant though - they pretty much equal out.

    Is 10 man harder? Is 25 man harder? It varies from fight to fight - but as a whole it's pretty balanced now.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sareth View Post
    I'm having this discussion with a friend. My guild has switched from 25 man to 10 man, and we're progressing much faster. But which do you think is harder? In 10 man there is more of a chance of failure if people screw up because there is less people, but on 25 man it's harder to organize. If I had my way we'd be back to 25 because the more people the better, I think, and it feels more special. I'd like to think they are both equal, because they are supposed to be, but I keep having the feeling that 10 man isn't proper raiding.


    Your anecdotal account of progressing faster is because you have your most skilled players in 10 man.

    These threads are stupid because people only are able to present anecdotal evidence becuase they're generally too stupid to realize that:
    A) difficulty is always subjective
    B) fight requirements can be easily quantified


    Garalon for example, people whining saying 25m is harder when there is hard math that can affirm or refute (it refutes) that claim but nobody ever brings it up.

    There needs to be a global rule against making these threads if there isn't already.

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Sareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Your anecdotal account of progressing faster is because you have your most skilled players in 10 man.
    o.o Are you in my guild? How do you know that? The guild split into 2 10 mans, they are both fairly balanced.
    'Lord Sargeras, sweep your molten fist through this world, so that it may be reborn in flames and darkness!'
    'So the light's vaunted justice has finally arrived.'
    'Boldly said. But I remain...unconvinced.'

    My Warrior

  13. #13
    Some fights are harder in 10, some in 25. Its a circlular arguement though. Alot of people have said all the facts such as organising and finding people at the same level.

    The most important thing is do what YOU find fun, anything else is irellivant this is a game... FYI I run 25 man and always will as i love the bigger community.

  14. #14
    25 man isn't just blatantly harder, it's different encounter design.
    In 10-man reducing roster by 1 healer actually provides sizable raid DPS increase (around 15% if you count tank DPS too), some fights are designed for such move.
    Eg. Elegon 10-man has just shy of 300M health, you're meant to fight him with 2 tanks, 2 healers and six DPS. 25-man mode has 880M hp, you're supposed to have 2 tanks, 5 healers and 18 DPS to match the ratios. I think the encounter is pretty balanced.

    Also shit in 25-man hits harder, unavoidable raid damage is higher, tuned for 25 players in group instead of just ten. If 25-man was just boss hp x2.5, then everyone would do 25-mans as they would be faceroll if incoming damage remained at 10-man level. In 25s single healer cooldown just won't cut it, you have to use multiple ones because you have many more available. The only mechanic I find flat out harder in 25m (in Mogushan) is Feng phase 3. One person fails to spread at resonance and it's instant wipe, as damage is based on number of people caught by explosion.

    Raidbosses themselves are just differently designed, to take relatively constant raid DPS into account. You can't go with one tank + 2 healers and increase your raid DPS output by 1/3 anymore. I killed 4/6 in 25-man and last two in 10-man, just sharing experiences.

    Obvious difficulty is of course getting twenty five competent raiders of roughly the same skill. Especially difficult as I'm in late night guild, we often ended up with several signups short and had to go 10-man. We also took highest geared/skilled 10-man online to down Elegon and Will cos our 25m group was nowhere near a kill. It was unofficial raid day but still, 30 seconds left on enrage timer. Unified raid size would be best IMO, like in BC there was only 25-mans (40 vanilla is overkill) because two different ones lead to drama ie. we don't have enough to do 25-man run but we have 18 people online and raid size is ten-man. 8 people must sit out which is almost half of people that signed for a raid.

  15. #15
    The easiest way to understand what is harder - make a pug.

    Try to clear normal mogushan in 10man pug and in 25man pug.

    You'll see the difference.
    Last edited by traen; 2012-11-02 at 01:57 PM.

  16. #16
    They are both harder - depending on how you look at it.

    From an individual perspective - 10 man is harder, that is just straight maths - you are 10% of the result of a 10 man run, 4% of the result of a 25 man run.

    From a group perspective - 25 man is harder, that is also straight maths - several times more complex to organise and run. So many more variables.

  17. #17
    Epic! Lora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Your anecdotal account of progressing faster is because you have your most skilled players in 10 man.

    There needs to be a global rule against making these threads if there isn't already.
    This please. There is no point in these discussions. Neither are more difficult. They both coexist at the same level.
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  18. #18
    This kinda of thread causes alot of flaming, so take all the opinions as persona and dont offend other ppl just because of their's. I belive some of the fights are easier on 10man some are harder, but overall 10man its easier.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    They are both harder - depending on how you look at it.

    From an individual perspective - 10 man is harder, that is just straight maths - you are 10% of the result of a 10 man run, 4% of the result of a 25 man run.

    From a group perspective - 25 man is harder, that is also straight maths - several times more complex to organise and run. So many more variables.
    It's only harder from an individual perspective if you are a baddie getting carried, if you are one of the best in your raid group it's actually much easier (individually) cause your skill accounts for more.

  20. #20
    Warchief Asmodias's Avatar
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    Neither of them are harder... both of them are harder... The real difficulty is debating it, because no one ever wins.


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