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  1. #1

    Chaos Bolt: How to make everybody happy

    So there seem to be a huge elephant in the room right now when it comes to warlocks and PvP: Chaos Bolt. And everyone seems to be arguing about it.

    Here is the issue with this ability:
    FOR THE WARLOCK'S TARGET, the ability can be extremely frustrating to deal with. The reason for that is that if you fail to interrupt a cast, it WILL pretty much rock your world. There is nothing "fun" with being blown up by a single spell.

    FOR THE WARLOCK, the ability can be extremely frustrating to deal with. The reason for that is that in current PvP a 3 seconds cast that shares a very limited ressource with your self-healing is extremely easy to shut off. The fact that all our damage is loaded into it means our damage outside that one cast is laughable. Delay, CC, interrupts, knockbacks, reflects, magic absorbs (AMS/CoS), and even sheer pressure, forcing the lock to Ember Tap, are all enough to ensure the warlock will have an extremely aggravating time getting the cast off at the opportune moment.

    Now don't get me wrong, its really satisfying to see that big $?%! land on some unsuspecting folk in a BG or a low ranking arena match, but at the end of the day, its a all-or-nothing mechanic, and thats never good for anybody.

    So here is my suggestion to fix the frustration on both sides of that spell:
    - Reduce Chaos Bolt's damage
    - Reduce Chaos Bolt's casting time
    - Buff ember generation
    - Chaos Bolt gains a proc, allowing the use of a single Shadowburn (at x% potency, x not necessarely being 100) above execute range
    What this does:
    Destruction warlocks get to keep their identity as the burst-on-demand spec and Chaos Bolt gets to keep its role as our burst setter. Our burst is now split between 2 different skills, but it becomes less susceptible to disruption. No one gets hit by 180k+ damage spells anymore, yet warlocks can still put out serious pressure. Makes Ember a more interactive ressource (destro is straight up boring right now in PvE).

    Numbers would need tweaking, but what would you guys think of the overall design?
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2012-11-06 at 07:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Moving some of the damage from chaos bolt to other spells could definitely be a good idea, as it currently stands it feels impossible to get a chaos bolt off when focused unless you use Unending Resolve and even then stuns and CC effects still work to interrupt you... I've been playing a bit of Demo in PvP lately as all or nothing isn't all that fun in the long run, since it never works out against someone who knows what they are doing, so a bit of a rebalance in destro's damage could definitely make me want to play it more again.

  3. #3
    I'm fine with them moving damage out of destro and into something else, it's not that much fun for the warlock when you spend half the fight prancing around building up embers while not really doing anything, then use the ability you've worked hard to build up for and is pretty trivial to prevent if the player is paying attention, only to have forum posts whine about how destruction can just 1 shot people.

    Frankly, I wish they'd just make affliction work in pvp again, destro is too turret-y for my tastes, regardless of the faults with chaos bolt.

  4. #4
    Epic!
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    What you have to remember is that single target damage will be (more or less) balanced around your whole toolkit, so if you nerf Chaos Bolt damage and do other stuff your single target damage should not change much. However in the process you just nerfed the cleaving potential of the spec (copied CB's will also hit for less obviously), which is the only field where the spec shine.

    (PvP)
    I don't really see how nerfing Chaos Bolt a bit and then adding a Shadowburn proc to it would reduce Destro's burst
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I'm fine with them moving damage out of destro and into something else, it's not that much fun for the warlock when you spend half the fight prancing around building up embers while not really doing anything, then use the ability you've worked hard to build up for and is pretty trivial to prevent if the player is paying attention, only to have forum posts whine about how destruction can just 1 shot people.

    Frankly, I wish they'd just make affliction work in pvp again, destro is too turret-y for my tastes, regardless of the faults with chaos bolt.
    Unfortunately, Affliction is just a turret currently as well. =/

    I will burn your soul.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire Tovarish24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I'm fine with them moving damage out of destro and into something else, it's not that much fun for the warlock when you spend half the fight prancing around building up embers while not really doing anything, then use the ability you've worked hard to build up for and is pretty trivial to prevent if the player is paying attention, only to have forum posts whine about how destruction can just 1 shot people.

    Frankly, I wish they'd just make affliction work in pvp again, destro is too turret-y for my tastes, regardless of the faults with chaos bolt.
    What doesn't work about affliction pvp? Lol. I play affliction and I'm doing better off then I was even in Cata. Affliction is baller right now.
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  7. #7
    I crit for maybe 100k on a player with chaos bolt.
    That wont kill him so im gonna spend 10 sec spamming floppy noodle incinerates so i can shadowburn him to death.
    All while a rogue/warrior/dk takes 5 seconds to split my ass on a soufflé.

    There is only one change for CB to get, and that is to ignore damage reducers.
    Anyone else remember when CB went through pally bubble?
    Good times.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supernex View Post
    Unfortunately, Affliction is just a turret currently as well. =/
    i suspect once KJC gets improved in 5.1 affliction will be a lot better off.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    (PvP)
    I don't really see how nerfing Chaos Bolt a bit and then adding a Shadowburn proc to it would reduce Destro's burst
    It not about reducing our burst, it's about reducing the psychological impact of our burst while still being able to burst. simply allocating
    damage away from chaos bolt would not be the right fix, however the OP's suggestion of several changes might work because casters generally burst a target by layering several abilities in rapid succession (Frost Bomb+Ice lance+Frostfire Bolt)(Lava Burst+Fulmination)(Mind Spike+Mind Blast+Devouring Plague) etc.

    the general benefits of this method are:
    ・if one can't get the full combo off one can still get a partial combo off, it's not a yes-or-no proposition.
    ・the combos incorporate several instants and so one can perform it while moving,
    ・the combos don't have the psychological impact of a single super-crit which makes one's opponents cry foul in forums even though they could have easily avoided the damage.

    Chaos Bolt is none of these things. It's not nearly as deadly as opponents THINK it is, but because they THINK it's deadly they call for nerfs, and in reality it's a total pain in the ass to ever use.

    reallocating the damage of Chaos Bolt also requires that it be combinable with a proc and an instant and have a reduced cast time.

    Instead of just Chaos Bolt, our burst would be something like Conflagrate>Chaos Bolt>Proc>Conflagrate>Shadowburn
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2012-11-02 at 07:25 PM.

  9. #9
    Give it the conflag treatment by adding a reducing the direct damage part but adding a dot.

    While they do that they can reduce the cast time a bit as well

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    (PvE)
    What you have to remember is that single target damage will be (more or less) balanced around your whole toolkit, so if you nerf Chaos Bolt damage and do other stuff your single target damage should not change much. However in the process you just nerfed the cleaving potential of the spec (copied CB's will also hit for less obviously), which is the only field where the spec shine.

    (PvP)
    I don't really see how nerfing Chaos Bolt a bit and then adding a Shadowburn proc to it would reduce Destro's burst
    (PvE)
    To be completely fair I had not thought about that, but it would only make sens to allow more CBs per havok if the CB isnt gonna be the heavy monster truck hitter it is now.

    (PvP)
    As I tried to explain in my mirror thread on wow boards, Destro's burst is nothing special at all. Arms, Ret, Ele, BM, Frost, etc they have all the same or higher burst then us. The difference is that ours is in a single skill, while theirs is in multiple. Its basically a psychological issue, not a numerical one.

    When your average player goes to his combat log and sees "white hit for 90k, HS for 110k, etc", he goes "ouch that hurt!". But when he sees "Chaos Bolt 180k" he goes "Wtf thats so OP!". In the end its not that the damage is actually massive, its that it LOOKS massive.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Supernex View Post
    Unfortunately, Affliction is just a turret currently as well. =/
    Yeah, that's my problem with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tovarish24 View Post
    What doesn't work about affliction pvp? Lol. I play affliction and I'm doing better off then I was even in Cata. Affliction is baller right now.
    I've found I'm a complete monster with CDs available, paper without them. We're now forced to turret due to our dots being completely neutered due to dependence on MG, but we lack sufficient passive survivability that we used to have with SL, nor is drain life much use anymore, pitiful healing now and using it as filler loses MG, thus pitiful dots.

    When I play I feel incapable of dancing around with dots, COE and felflame. Nor does drain tanking seem to work anymore. I'm sure some people will get it to work, but I've not managed to get much out of it, arena representation is poor at the moment and what representation there is seems to mostly be destro - so I'm sure I'm not the only one.

    I'd prefer affliction to be either tanky enough to turret and / or mobile enough to play the slippery caster model mages have often had, but malefic grasp seems to cause problems for both of those models. I really wish it hadn't been added, even if I can see why it was.

    But, I digress.

  12. #12
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    I myself have never had problems with warlocks and Chaos bolt. Then again i am a good player so. ( Not being bigheaded ) Anytime i am in a BG people i play with just nuke down any warlock ASAP. The great thing for us is that Blood Fear pins a massive " IMUSTDIE1ST" on DES Warlocks, Chaos Bolt seals it. The thing i love doing the most? When I DPS i let them cast Chaos bolt....then place my my Glphyed Grounding totem and wacth it refect back and rape them xD

    Before anyone starts. Yes i Glphy Grounding totem, IMO 1 of the best tools we have. Once you master how to use it its god like. Laugh in the faces of pallys that HoJ themself or that priceless mage self Deep Freeze.
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  13. #13
    Stood in the Fire Tovarish24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Yeah, that's my problem with it.



    I've found I'm a complete monster with CDs available, paper without them. We're now forced to turret due to our dots being completely neutered due to dependence on MG, but we lack sufficient passive survivability that we used to have with SL, nor is drain life much use anymore, pitiful healing now and using it as filler loses MG, thus pitiful dots.

    When I play I feel incapable of dancing around with dots, COE and felflame. Nor does drain tanking seem to work anymore. I'm sure some people will get it to work, but I've not managed to get much out of it, arena representation is poor at the moment and what representation there is seems to mostly be destro - so I'm sure I'm not the only one.

    I'd prefer affliction to be either tanky enough to turret and / or mobile enough to play the slippery caster model mages have often had, but malefic grasp seems to cause problems for both of those models. I really wish it hadn't been added, even if I can see why it was.

    But, I digress.
    Ok, so out of curiosity what's your PvP gear looking like. I can sort of see where you are coming from, but personally I don't feel like my damage without MG is all that low. In fact, I find myself actually out-damaging most opponents in 2v2 and 3v3, even when we *lose* the match. Personally, I feel like the drain life method was a worthy sub out for some of the defensive cooldowns we have now. Something about "healing over time" always felt weak to me in arena. What I mean here is that it used to be "Healthstone, Portal, Spam Drain Life." Without help from your partners (Assuming they're CC'd or whatever and can't help), that doesn't add up to very much survivability, outside of maybe duels. I'm perfectly happy subbing out my TOTAL lack of burst, and a bit of Healing over time, for a spammable ability that gives me some burst potential, and also a veritable smorgasbord of potential defensive cooldown options.

    I feel far tankier now than I did in cata. I also feel like I have more control over where my damage is, rather than just spilling it everywhere and hoping it doesn't get dispelled. I'm not saying Affliction is perfect, but I'm most certainly happy with how it is. I'd rather it not get tampered with and let the other classes get nerfed/buffed on their own. I feel like Affliction is kind of in that sweet spot of not being OP but also being 100% viable. I'd prefer to stick with what we got then have Blizzard get their hands on it again. The changes to the 90 talents are welcome and needed however.

    This perspective is coming from a ~1950 player currently in 38.8% PvP Power 59% Resil gear.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I'm fine with them moving damage out of destro and into something else, it's not that much fun for the warlock when you spend half the fight prancing around building up embers while not really doing anything, then use the ability you've worked hard to build up for and is pretty trivial to prevent if the player is paying attention, only to have forum posts whine about how destruction can just 1 shot people.

    Frankly, I wish they'd just make affliction work in pvp again, destro is too turret-y for my tastes, regardless of the faults with chaos bolt.
    Meh, affliction is so boring though... Dot everything up and dance around the pillar... Same reason I hate healers in arenas. Would much rather have demo as the main lock pvp spec.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Meh, affliction is so boring though... Dot everything up and dance around the pillar... Same reason I hate healers in arenas. Would much rather have demo as the main lock pvp spec.
    I agree so much. As Affli I pop all my shit and dot everything then I run around spamming enfeeblements/fears/shadowfuries while trying to keep my dots up because channelinng is never an option. The playstyle relies so much on other people finishing the job for you. I see no real pressure outside of CDs and you're so easy to shut down. Demo has so much potential I really hope it can keep growing because it's a lot of fun to play in PvP atm.

    Edit: To stay on topic I feel like your suggestion is just gonna make Destro hurt even more. You name no numbers but I'm pretty sure that pressure is gonna be really hard to deal with, like we'll hit harder than mages and if we play with one things will be out of control.
    Last edited by Bonkura; 2012-11-02 at 09:24 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post

    reallocating the damage of Chaos Bolt also requires that it be combinable with a proc and an instant and have a reduced cast time.

    Instead of just Chaos Bolt, our burst would be something like Conflagrate>Chaos Bolt>Proc>Conflagrate>Shadowburn
    I have to say I wasn't that happy with the idea of moving/reducing the damage from CB but I think this idea is kinda awesome and would actually be a bit more fun for the spec and add a wee bit more excitement.

  17. #17
    To stay on topic
    ^ Please lol. This isnt an Affliction thread

    Anyway, the reason I didnt mention numbers Bonkura is actually because I wanted people to comment on the design first. Numbers themselves lead to pointless arguments as they could technically be tweaked in a way to let us do exactly the same amount of damage as currently, but split between two spells instead of one. Or more. Or less. Numbers are easilly changed.

    Design-wise the idea was to see how many players would be willing to essentially split their burst in two if those two spells could be more reliable to cast in PvP.

  18. #18
    old spell :
    Chaos Bolt Warlock: Level 90
    10 Burning Embers 40 yd range
    3 sec cast
    Requires level 1
    Unleashes a blast of chaos, causing (2164 ( + 225% of SpellPower) * (1.24)) Shadow damage.
    Chaos Bolt always critically strikes. In addition, the damage is increased by your critical strike chance.
    /
    New Spell:
    Chaos Bolt Warlock: Level 90
    10 Burning Embers 40 yd range
    3 sec cast
    Requires level 1
    Unleashes a blast of chaos, causing (2164 ( + 225% of SpellPower) * (1.24))+25% Shadow damage.
    Chaos Bolt always critically strikes. In addition, the damage is increased by your critical strike chance.

    Chaos Bolt deals 25%(or 27%, or 28 %...) less damage to players.
    /

    better balance for PVE and PVP ?

  19. #19

  20. #20
    The crit for a full geared person isnt too high, 80k aprox. I think is well but if u compare against and learn crys about ungeared people obviously is OP.

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