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  1. #21
    No DoT, Nikijih's suggestion is perfect. It's what many havel asked for. We've discussed it previously, and shown that it is a great solution. Nobody wants to get hit by giant numbers, and nobody wants to spend countless minutes doing nothing in order to finally put these numbers out. Adding a DoT is a straight out nerf and only mildly pleases one side.
    If Chaos Bolt's damage is nerfed, than Havoc will obviously allow for more than 1 to be cast. It won't nerf cleaving capabilities.

    Basically, the damage within a 1 second interval should remain the same, except it would be distributed in a less drastic way. Instead of pumping out 4 chaos bolts in 10 seconds (considering Backdraft), each hitting for 2.5 damage each (just an example); you put out 4 Chaos Bolts for 2 damage each in 7 seconds and 2 incinerates hitting for 1 damage each.
    The only disadvantage is that damage spikes become smaller, however they're more often. Other than that it's nothing but a buff in PvE and PvP. And last time I checked, the spec is behind the rest, and the only thing keeping it up is clever use of Shadowburn which is not what the spec is based around (curse you Zumzum!).

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 12:20 AM ----------

    The only thing I disagree with is Shadowburn. I hate RNG, and it never really had its place in the warlock class. Plus, putting something as deadly as Shadowburn in the domain of RNG is not the most "stable" idea. I think that Burning Embers depending on crit is RNG enough for us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  2. #22
    why not let its additional crit damage scale with only half the crit you have yes its a big burst nerf but add back in searing pain make it instant on like a 6 sec cd or make it a 15% chance per cast to proc it make it free and instant hit for about 60% of incinerates damage w/e that is but make it give a debuff that increases your crit chance on the target by 10% a decent pve boost and would balance pvp a bit by having to get a searing pain off in order to max your damage out instead this would also help in arena since it would be instant and free something that can be spammed every proc

    you could also make searing pain like exorcism for pallys where you can cast it when its off cd but procs reset it. I not sure if blizz would even think about adding it to a fnb cast though it would be a huge dps increase and ember generator even on smaller groups it could be worth using it on 3 targets since it can crit and would increase your crit rate meaning more embers
    Last edited by Lowdiskspace; 2012-11-03 at 04:36 AM. Reason: more info

  3. #23
    We just came from an expantion (im talking about Cata) that destro locks had shadowfury-fear-deathcoil-seduce AND instand soulfire i think its not the numbers its not the dps what i miss most and what i have always loved with my destro lock and finally what made me to reroll after 4,5 years of only destro lock is that we lost our instant burst it wasnt huge it wanst op but it was instant chain cc while setting non stop instant spells ( come on we all have smiled with Drakedog,Boneshock and the rest destro legends doing that).So in my opinion give a new mechanic which will be instant and will do some dmg not something huge but like "ur immolate ticks have a chance for making ur next chaos bolt free, no embers,instant cast but with 50%, or even lower, i honestly dont care, dmg reduction.All the other specs had their "hard to play" mechanics being a bit of helped ( soulburn+soulswap instnantly applies the dots, demos dont need that much of demo form to do some decent dmg and they don rely on their demon form cd anymore) why destros have been so messed up? we have nothing nothing at all neither burst neither mobilty nothing.Im w8ing anyone that argues with me to speak clearly and fair why he disagrees but honestly i was trained by the best and im not just a destro fan so dont expect to turne me down with instant fears etc.

  4. #24
    stop complaing about CB, you are just bad. CB is super easy to counter if you have a brain, an interrupt, a stun and a pillar, which everyone has nwadays.

    And you will never get a 'free shadowburn charge' for execute above 20% << that is lol.
    That's EXACTLY why they nerfed conflag to the ground in ICC. an instant that strong is unfair.

    Hell, i can even already see the normal version getting a nerf in pvp: an instant critting for 160k is a bit OP

  5. #25
    Brewmaster Cherrypowdah's Avatar
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    I say swap chaos bolt to a always oneshots skill, that has a 5sec cast time not shortened by haste.

  6. #26
    I just registered to write this.
    Chaos bolt is not a 3 seconds cast time spell...unless you are not skilled in playing warlocks. I have a friend of mine who plays a lock in pvp and he is casting Chaos Bolt when he got:
    Backdraft Warlock - Destruction Spec
    Affliction, Demonology:

    When you cast Conflagrate, the cast time and mana cost of your next three Incinerates is reduced by 30%. Lasts 15 sec.

    Destruction:
    When you cast Conflagrate, the cast time and mana cost of your next three Incinerates or one Chaos Bolt is reduced by 30%. Lasts 15 sec.


    as you can see you got 30% reduced cast time with Chaos Bolt...and with the tools that warlock has is not hard to get off multiple Chaos Bolt. Instant talented fear, Death Coil, Shadowfury and all the selfhealing you have, Kil'jaeden's Cunning and even Unending Resolve. Obviously if you're not skilled you are doing it wrong. ^^

    In 3vs3 with a healer you can't let a warlock free cast, and he didnt even needs to use Burning Ember to heal.

    So, don't say it's a 3 sec cast time spell....because as I already said it's not if played well.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonaire View Post
    I say swap chaos bolt to a always oneshots skill, that has a 5sec cast time not shortened by haste.
    Why so complicated? Why not like this: http://de.twitch.tv/dakkrothwow/b/338084424?t=4h2m35s
    That blew away my mind.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    What this does:
    Numbers would need tweaking, but what would you guys think of the overall design?
    How it plays now is the first time I've actually enjoyed playing the spec in 5 years. Cutting the cast time and damage of Chaos Bolt would make it feel quite underwhelming, and actually reduce somewhat the spec's burst potential due to the limitation on number of Embers, and even with an increased Ember generation, would still be relatively slow build up.

    I can see where you're going, but rather than a profile with a long time between massive spikes, you'd just end up with a slightly shorter time with smaller spikes. Those smaller spikes are of course going to be less effective, and the duration between them will still be more than enough to 'reset' any given offensive move. Alternately, if you're going for the 'more drawn out' spikes (bumps?) in damage, then again, these will be less effective due to being more healable/give more time to react to; but necessarily the time between them could not be reduced since the overall concentration of damage would remain the same.

  9. #29
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killem View Post
    Why so complicated? Why not like this: http://de.twitch.tv/dakkrothwow/b/338084424?t=4h2m35s
    That blew away my mind.
    "warrs r fine l2p"
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    How it plays now is the first time I've actually enjoyed playing the spec in 5 years. Cutting the cast time and damage of Chaos Bolt would make it feel quite underwhelming, and actually reduce somewhat the spec's burst potential due to the limitation on number of Embers, and even with an increased Ember generation, would still be relatively slow build up.

    I can see where you're going, but rather than a profile with a long time between massive spikes, you'd just end up with a slightly shorter time with smaller spikes. Those smaller spikes are of course going to be less effective, and the duration between them will still be more than enough to 'reset' any given offensive move. Alternately, if you're going for the 'more drawn out' spikes (bumps?) in damage, then again, these will be less effective due to being more healable/give more time to react to; but necessarily the time between them could not be reduced since the overall concentration of damage would remain the same.
    I would tend to agree with Jessicka on this point.

    I will burn your soul.

  11. #31
    O k reduce the damage of chaos bolt but make it go through invincibilities like back in wrath or cata. Their now everyone's happy.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by AlmightyGerkin View Post
    O k reduce the damage of chaos bolt but make it go through invincibilities like back in wrath or cata. Their now everyone's happy.
    Um. How? Chaos bolt's damage shouldn't be nerfed at all. If you let a warlock get it off in pvp then that's your own fault and credit to the warlock and their team. Nerfing anything in destro's toolkit will annihilate the spec in PvE.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    stop complaing about CB, you are just bad. CB is super easy to counter if you have a brain, an interrupt, a stun and a pillar, which everyone has nwadays.

    And you will never get a 'free shadowburn charge' for execute above 20% << that is lol.
    That's EXACTLY why they nerfed conflag to the ground in ICC. an instant that strong is unfair.

    Hell, i can even already see the normal version getting a nerf in pvp: an instant critting for 160k is a bit OP
    Notice that, as I said, the complaining is on both sides. Its frustrating both to cast and to be hit by. Its not that I think CB is OP or something, but its a "all-or-nothing" mechanic, which many will interpret as being OP, and as we all know, Blizz cares about what "many" wants.

    That being said, there are two things I will say about your post:
    1) It is NOT an instant. It requires you cast a spell before being castable. Setup spells may be labled "instant", but anyone saying they are have a serious lack in game mechanics understanding.
    2) Its not a matter of adding damage as it is a matter of switching it. Look at it this way (FOR EXEMPLE!)

    - Chaos Bolt does half damage.
    - Chaos Bolt made a 2s cast.
    - Allows you to cast a Shadowburn at 50% potency (like the old Smite talent for priests)
    In the end, the goal is to keep our burst about the same, I don't want us critting for 160k either. But we HAVE to split our burst in many spells, otherwise the QQ over a single big crit will -NEVER- stop, and in the end we will just get our asses overnerfed again. Maybe it would be easier to get a dmg buff proc to next conflag instead of a Shadowburn, but that would be less interesting imo as it doesnt interract with our ressources as much.
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2012-11-05 at 10:24 PM.

  14. #34
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    (PvE)
    What you have to remember is that single target damage will be (more or less) balanced around your whole toolkit, so if you nerf Chaos Bolt damage and do other stuff your single target damage should not change much. However in the process you just nerfed the cleaving potential of the spec (copied CB's will also hit for less obviously), which is the only field where the spec shine.

    (PvP)
    I don't really see how nerfing Chaos Bolt a bit and then adding a Shadowburn proc to it would reduce Destro's burst
    (PvE)
    The spec right now simply shines by abusing Shadowburn + Havoc. Even on cleave fights like Stone Guard, Destro is behind the other two, as shown by your #1 Destro rank still being a full 10k behind the #1 Afflic rank and 30k behind the #1 Demo rank. It's frustrating gameplay because without Havoc + Shadowburn and lots of adds we just feel weak. Even when there are adds, we need to properly abuse our execute on adds in order to rank. With this change, Havoc would obviously have to be changed to include 2 CB's instead of one or something similar to that. Plus, Destro really needs a sustained damage single target buff, so buffing Immolate and Incinerate on top of this change would be more than appropriate. Sure we're competitive if we abuse one mechanic, but outside of that we're weak.

    (PvP)
    The problem with PvP is actually very well explained in the OP. It's all or nothing on one spell. By reducing the cast time, reducing the damage but increasing the ember generation we would have burst more often but it wouldn't be quite as stupid. It would also mean we wouldn't be ignored 95% of the game until we pop CD's at which point we're CC'ed into oblivion. A single havoc + CB with CDs popped is game ending in PvP right now. That's not right. I'm not sure how I feel about the Shadowburn proc because we already have a proc in PvP with Backlash and then two charges of Conflag. That could just lead to a lot of unstoppable burst a la Frost Mage right now, which nobody wants.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    How it plays now is the first time I've actually enjoyed playing the spec in 5 years. Cutting the cast time and damage of Chaos Bolt would make it feel quite underwhelming, and actually reduce somewhat the spec's burst potential due to the limitation on number of Embers, and even with an increased Ember generation, would still be relatively slow build up.

    I can see where you're going, but rather than a profile with a long time between massive spikes, you'd just end up with a slightly shorter time with smaller spikes. Those smaller spikes are of course going to be less effective, and the duration between them will still be more than enough to 'reset' any given offensive move. Alternately, if you're going for the 'more drawn out' spikes (bumps?) in damage, then again, these will be less effective due to being more healable/give more time to react to; but necessarily the time between them could not be reduced since the overall concentration of damage would remain the same.
    What if you were able to do the same amount of damage within 12 seconds but with more casts? I don't think it would hurt burst much except for the first spike of damage.

    Also, Shadowburn + Havoc needs nerfing. The viability of this technique cripples Destruction in so many ways and gives an excuse for not buffing other aspects of it. Just make the Havoc'ed target take less damage from it unless he is also at 20% health.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    What if you were able to do the same amount of damage within 12 seconds but with more casts? I don't think it would hurt burst much except for the first spike of damage.

    Also, Shadowburn + Havoc needs nerfing. The viability of this technique cripples Destruction in so many ways and gives an excuse for not buffing other aspects of it. Just make the Havoc'ed target take less damage from it unless he is also at 20% health.
    Why would you want shadowburn+ havoc nerfed? it gets stupid pet classes killed cause you cant los it not only that it has a chance at getting you a two for one kill in 2v2 even in 3v3 it has the ability to kill a dps and a heals at the same time as long as you target switch fast enough for that second shadowburn.

  17. #37
    Reduce Chaos Bolt's damage?If our ccs can be back to 4.3,20% decrease I'll accept it.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by marcceballos View Post
    The crit for a full geared person isnt too high, 80k aprox. I think is well but if u compare against and learn crys about ungeared people obviously is OP.
    My paladin can share a few words with you about that

    The BG was Battle for Gilneas, and neither me or the lock had Berserking, i have a 56,26% damage reduction, and this is what a "happy lock" shared with me:



    You think thats normal on a "PvP situation"? Because i dont, and while i admit that those numbers arent common (i normally recieve the half of that), when it happens i remember the days when people complained about the Lay of Hands, people didnt like to see a paladin recovering the 100% of his healt in 1 CD (in one long CD), but today you see that many locks are "happy" (im not saying that there is this kind of people here) with "having the chance to delete in 1 shot" :s

    Reducing the damage of the CB and distributing that damage in other spells looks ok, it has been done in other classes and they work perfectly, i dont see where is the problem (well, yes, some people enjoy seeing "big crit numbers"). I really hope they do something, but not something that sends the lock "to the ground", of course

  19. #39
    Mechagnome Sweetz's Avatar
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    I guess I will never understand people complaining about chaos bolt...

    If you let the warlock cast 3-4 chaosbolts (which is what he will need to cast, if you are at equal gear levels, which is where balancing is done, in order to kill you) you deserve to die. Many times over. In game and outside.

    The problem with spreading the damage to other sources, is that it completely nullifies the spec to a point where it becomes a bland mixture of demonology and affliction without any notable trait of its own.

    If Immolate gets a damage buff and chaos bolt gets a damage nerf as a result, dispelling will just dominate destruction like it used to since WOTLK.
    If Incinerate gets a buff and chaos bolt gets a nerf, nobody will be spending embers on cast chaos bolts. The cast time is insanely long as it is, if the damage is decreased then there will be absolutely no purpose to casting the spell. Compared to saving your embers for self-heals and have your damage come from incinerate and conflagrates.

    Balance is all well and good, but we can't all be playing the same class/spec.
    Last edited by Sweetz; 2012-11-06 at 01:37 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayn View Post
    I just registered to write this.
    Chaos bolt is not a 3 seconds cast time spell...unless you are not skilled in playing warlocks. I have a friend of mine who plays a lock in pvp and he is casting Chaos Bolt when he got:
    Backdraft Warlock - Destruction Spec
    Affliction, Demonology:

    When you cast Conflagrate, the cast time and mana cost of your next three Incinerates is reduced by 30%. Lasts 15 sec.

    Destruction:
    When you cast Conflagrate, the cast time and mana cost of your next three Incinerates or one Chaos Bolt is reduced by 30%. Lasts 15 sec.


    as you can see you got 30% reduced cast time with Chaos Bolt...and with the tools that warlock has is not hard to get off multiple Chaos Bolt. Instant talented fear, Death Coil, Shadowfury and all the selfhealing you have, Kil'jaeden's Cunning and even Unending Resolve. Obviously if you're not skilled you are doing it wrong. ^^

    In 3vs3 with a healer you can't let a warlock free cast, and he didnt even needs to use Burning Ember to heal.

    So, don't say it's a 3 sec cast time spell....because as I already said it's not if played well.
    sure its still a 2sec cast. and tell me how i get multiple cb off when a warrior in avatar is smashing my face? or if the BR hunter zoo is on my face. there is no1 near the time to get a 2sec cast off. because you will get 2 hits in that time to bring it back to 3sec. and the instand fear death coil and shadow fure are all in the same talent tier. so don't make it looks nicer then it acualy is.

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