Sweetz as you said there are issues with just spreading our DPS amongst our other tools, as the spec would loose its burst aspec. Thats precisely why what I am suggesting does not touch our sustained damage. It is simply spreading the burst on two skills rather then a single one.
The difference between casting Chaosbolt -> Chaosbolt -> Shadow Burn to casting Chaosbolt -> Shadow Burn -> Shadow Burn is;
2x massive casts + execute if target below 20% for 2 seconds VS 1 massive cast + execute + execute if target is below 20% for 2 seconds.
If you consider the mechanics involved in the execute range calculations, you'll find that getting a CD that puts the target below 20% is far superior to that of a cast time (that has a finished gcd by the time the damage lands).
This is without even considering the absurd cast time on Chaosbolt.
Chaosbolt is fine. It really is. If any class alligns everything perfectly, and is allowed to nuke uninterrupted for 7 seconds, then by all means anything should die. But the fact of the matter is, you never get a remote chance to allign everything perfectly. Especially not as destruction. Alligning 3+ embers, Dark Soul + procs and 6 Backdraft charges and then firing everything without getting interrupted is not as easy as it sounds. And it sounds fucking hard. Imagine how hard it's going to be when you have a melee, a target that is moving around pillars and simcraft knows what random stuns and cc effects being spilled over the arena / protective effects being popped to counter your cooldowns.
Sweetz, you might want to go re-read my OP. It seems like you are ignoring many things I already talked about. I already acknowledged this:
That is the very problem mate. That is why Chaos bolt is NOT fine. Its an all-or-nothing tool, which is something that is terrible for game balance.If any class alligns everything perfectly, and is allowed to nuke uninterrupted for 7 seconds, then by all means anything should die. But the fact of the matter is, you never get a remote chance to allign everything perfectly. Especially not as destruction.
Just go read the WoW boards: we are 2nd/3rd last in all arena ratings by a huge margin (http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/), performing short of pathetically overall, and yet there are as many threads about CB as there are about arms warriors in general, and Blizz is already in the business of nerfing it.
Now you might argue that my solution is not the correct one, but my fear is that if we insist on keeping a model where all our damage is backloaded into a single skill, all we will end up with is a wattered down version of it with weak burst and weak sustained.
Last edited by Nikijih; 2012-11-06 at 04:51 PM.
Well for all we know Blizzard's simulations still have all three specs close :/ (Xelnath said it several times here)That way they'd be forced to buff other abilities that aren't so niche and clunky. Right now I'm thinking Destruction isn't buffed because of Shadowburn + Havoc's effect on damage meters. It gives Blizzard some sort of excuse for not buffing the spec because it is "viable" in PvE. If Shadowburn + Havoc is nerfed, then Destro's main abilities are buffed, making it an actually good spec for what it is, in both PvE and PvP.
But they are already buffing Destro a bit with Conflagrate generating embers, so who knows ? We might have a good surprise before 5.1...
Look at it this way:
But those are more side effects. In the end, the point is not to reduce our burst. The point is to reduce its psychological impact. Because thats the kind of thing that will get us knee-jerk-overnerfed.PRO of this change:
- Burst is less susceptible to disruption, making it more reliable to use.
CON of this change:
- More susceptible to partial mitigation
Last edited by Nikijih; 2012-11-06 at 07:25 PM.
Those classes can't be prevented from building resources though. Doing this gives us all those pitfalls, plus 100% prevention in the first place. Unless you're going to make Ember generation passive and Ember Tap free, then we'd still come out worse in every way.
As gear improves and time goes on and people get used to it, and how to prevent it; it'll fade as being a big deal. Because it isn't one.
On TR, against fully geared players, getting 2 CB's off essentially ends the game. The problem though is that this is way too easy to counter.If you let the warlock cast 3-4 chaosbolts (which is what he will need to cast, if you are at equal gear levels, which is where balancing is done, in order to kill you) you deserve to die. Many times over. In game and outside.
Destruction was more than viable in WOTLK and started sucking in Cata. In Cata everyone could dispel Immolate as often as they wanted to. It was also needed for Conflag AND it increased Chaos Bolt and Incinerate damage on the target. A simple damage buff to Immolate would hardly cause Destro to be dominated by dispels again because these circumstances don't exist anymore.If Immolate gets a damage buff and chaos bolt gets a damage nerf as a result, dispelling will just dominate destruction like it used to since WOTLK.
The OP actually wants to leave Incinerate and nerf CB damage but give it a faster cast time and make us generate more embers. Our damage output wouldn't change overall, and we would still have the same amount of damage coming from CB. The damage would just come more often in slightly smaller chunks, rather than once every 2 minutes in huge chunks.If Incinerate gets a buff and chaos bolt gets a nerf, nobody will be spending embers on cast chaos bolts. The cast time is insanely long as it is, if the damage is decreased then there will be absolutely no purpose to casting the spell. Compared to saving your embers for self-heals and have your damage come from incinerate and conflagrates.
For some reason, and this baffles me, you can ONLY see the extremes with a nerf to CB damage making it completely useless. Not sure if you're just cynical or have some secret want for punishing your class, but nobody here is asking for extremes. That attitude changed on these forums a while ago.
---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 02:41 PM ----------
On a different note, using major CDs as a way to counter a 2 second cast is a very poor argument. Avatar and Stampede are both long CDs and I would hope that you wouldn't try to cast CB with a CD popping warrior in your face.
However, that is where the buffed ember generation comes into play. With Conflag and RoF generating some next patch, with the correct number tweaking that fear of yours could easily be aleviated.
Again: go back and re-read the OP please, because when you keep arguing that nothing needs changing because people will learn to counter CB, you are ignoring half of it:
An all or nothing ability like this means that you are 100% right. And thats the problem with it. If it lands, it feels OP for the victim. If its hard countered, it feels UP to the warlock. That is the very reason why we are doing very badly right now in competitive gameplay.FOR THE WARLOCK, the ability can be extremely frustrating to deal with. The reason for that is that in current PvP a 3 seconds cast that shares a very limited ressource with your self-healing is extremely easy to shut off. The fact that all our damage is loaded into it means our damage outside that one cast is laughable. Delay, CC, interrupts, knockbacks, reflects, magic absorbs (AMS/CoS), and even sheer pressure, forcing the lock to Ember Tap, are all enough to ensure the warlock will have an extremely aggravating time getting the cast off at the opportune moment.
Last edited by Nikijih; 2012-11-06 at 07:45 PM.
It also reduces the effectiveness of reactive prevention because reactive prevention is very limited. A Spriest can spectral guise my big CB and all of my damage is gone. With this change, a well timed spectral guise would simply mean that one of my CB's isn't going to hit as hard but I still have another available. Also, reducing the damage might mean that teams don't prioritize every single CC they have on the Warlock with CD's popped.
---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 02:53 PM ----------
---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 02:59 PM ----------
Destro burst right now is actually very underwhelming in a 12 second window. You need to have 4 embers saved up and actually be able to use them in a row, but that takes the full 12 seconds of straight casting. Destro has good one, maybe two shot burst, then it's dead in the water. All the classes you mentioned have better effective burst because of the ease of dealing that burst.Destro burst isnt something exceptional. Rets, Arms, BM, Frost, etc all have about the same effective burst. The only difference is that theirs is split up, which means (A) its more susceptible to be partly resisted/blocked/dodged/etc, and (B) it is psychologically less scary. That is the same goal with this suggestion.
I don't understand this argument. More CB's means they need to use more CDs to cover all of them. Right now, a SPriest can have spectral guise up for every single CB I try to cast. There really isn't a con to your argument in the form of being susceptible to anything. We can cast CB more often which makes it harder to stop and we have better sustained damage so we can't just be ignored until we pop all CD's. We even get the benefit of not losing out on all of our damage if we need to Ember Tap. Sure Ember Tap would have to be nerfed proportionately, but right now a lot of Ember Tap healing isn't needed. More freedom of choice this way.CON of this change:
- More susceptible to partial mitigation
---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 03:03 PM ----------
Ill be honest I was mainly thinking of resists when i wrote this, forgetting they are no longuer ingame. Its still true for misses under the hit cap, but anyone in competitve gameplay will have that.I don't understand this argument.
That being said, it still comes in play against certain mechanics, like the monk's sparring glyph (x% chance to reflect incomming spells), where more spells cast = more chances at least 1 of them will be reflected, hence partial mitigation.
Pretty much, yeah. Like I said, I had an outdated mechanic in mind when I made that argument, but i agree with your last post.
---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 09:12 PM ----------
As for the resource issue, I've mentioned it since embers and fury were first implemented: if you're going to start with such a hard to gain resource, it should be rewarding enough. In the case of pvp, it practically means a certain win. Sadly, that model doesn't work in pvp. But basically, our burst should be the highest simply because it takes the most ramp up time by a huge margin. It's not fun design for neither the warlock or the opponent, but if we're supposed to get a just reward for the cost, that's how it should be.
---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 10:29 PM ----------