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  1. #41
    Mechagnome Sweetz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loki505 View Post
    sure its still a 2sec cast. and tell me how i get multiple cb off when a warrior in avatar is smashing my face? or if the BR hunter zoo is on my face. there is no1 near the time to get a 2sec cast off. because you will get 2 hits in that time to bring it back to 3sec. and the instand fear death coil and shadow fure are all in the same talent tier. so don't make it looks nicer then it acualy is.
    His pvp is vs. Target Dummies, noworries

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetz View Post
    I guess I will never understand people complaining about chaos bolt...

    If you let the warlock cast 3-4 chaosbolts (which is what he will need to cast, if you are at equal gear levels, which is where balancing is done, in order to kill you) you deserve to die. Many times over. In game and outside.

    The problem with spreading the damage to other sources, is that it completely nullifies the spec to a point where it becomes a bland mixture of demonology and affliction without any notable trait of its own.

    If Immolate gets a damage buff and chaos bolt gets a damage nerf as a result, dispelling will just dominate destruction like it used to since WOTLK.
    If Incinerate gets a buff and chaos bolt gets a nerf, nobody will be spending embers on cast chaos bolts. The cast time is insanely long as it is, if the damage is decreased then there will be absolutely no purpose to casting the spell. Compared to saving your embers for self-heals and have your damage come from incinerate and conflagrates.

    Balance is all well and good, but we can't all be playing the same class/spec.
    make immolate instant,benifit from sac and so more damage other than a worthless dot, give us free ember procs of some sort even a 5% chance at a free shadowburn or instant chaos bolt without costing an ember or make it like the pallies proc chance to let you use ember consuming ability without actually using an ember id be happy with a 25% chaos bolt nerf just means we can rotate it around a few procs to max our burst combos.

  3. #43
    Sweetz as you said there are issues with just spreading our DPS amongst our other tools, as the spec would loose its burst aspec. Thats precisely why what I am suggesting does not touch our sustained damage. It is simply spreading the burst on two skills rather then a single one.

  4. #44
    Mechagnome Sweetz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    Sweetz as you said there are issues with just spreading our DPS amongst our other tools, as the spec would loose its burst aspec. Thats precisely why what I am suggesting does not touch our sustained damage. It is simply spreading the burst on two skills rather then a single one.
    With such a proc (Chaosbolt -> shadowburn without execute requirement) the game would be even more broken, because the free shadowburn would be uninterruptable.
    The difference between casting Chaosbolt -> Chaosbolt -> Shadow Burn to casting Chaosbolt -> Shadow Burn -> Shadow Burn is;
    2x massive casts + execute if target below 20% for 2 seconds VS 1 massive cast + execute + execute if target is below 20% for 2 seconds.
    If you consider the mechanics involved in the execute range calculations, you'll find that getting a CD that puts the target below 20% is far superior to that of a cast time (that has a finished gcd by the time the damage lands).
    This is without even considering the absurd cast time on Chaosbolt.

    Chaosbolt is fine. It really is. If any class alligns everything perfectly, and is allowed to nuke uninterrupted for 7 seconds, then by all means anything should die. But the fact of the matter is, you never get a remote chance to allign everything perfectly. Especially not as destruction. Alligning 3+ embers, Dark Soul + procs and 6 Backdraft charges and then firing everything without getting interrupted is not as easy as it sounds. And it sounds fucking hard. Imagine how hard it's going to be when you have a melee, a target that is moving around pillars and simcraft knows what random stuns and cc effects being spilled over the arena / protective effects being popped to counter your cooldowns.

  5. #45
    Sweetz, you might want to go re-read my OP. It seems like you are ignoring many things I already talked about. I already acknowledged this:

    If any class alligns everything perfectly, and is allowed to nuke uninterrupted for 7 seconds, then by all means anything should die. But the fact of the matter is, you never get a remote chance to allign everything perfectly. Especially not as destruction.
    That is the very problem mate. That is why Chaos bolt is NOT fine. Its an all-or-nothing tool, which is something that is terrible for game balance.

    Just go read the WoW boards: we are 2nd/3rd last in all arena ratings by a huge margin (http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/), performing short of pathetically overall, and yet there are as many threads about CB as there are about arms warriors in general, and Blizz is already in the business of nerfing it.

    Now you might argue that my solution is not the correct one, but my fear is that if we insist on keeping a model where all our damage is backloaded into a single skill, all we will end up with is a wattered down version of it with weak burst and weak sustained.
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2012-11-06 at 04:51 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowdiskspace View Post
    Why would you want shadowburn+ havoc nerfed? it gets stupid pet classes killed cause you cant los it not only that it has a chance at getting you a two for one kill in 2v2 even in 3v3 it has the ability to kill a dps and a heals at the same time as long as you target switch fast enough for that second shadowburn.
    That way they'd be forced to buff other abilities that aren't so niche and clunky. Right now I'm thinking Destruction isn't buffed because of Shadowburn + Havoc's effect on damage meters. It gives Blizzard some sort of excuse for not buffing the spec because it is "viable" in PvE. If Shadowburn + Havoc is nerfed, then Destro's main abilities are buffed, making it an actually good spec for what it is, in both PvE and PvP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  7. #47
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    That way they'd be forced to buff other abilities that aren't so niche and clunky. Right now I'm thinking Destruction isn't buffed because of Shadowburn + Havoc's effect on damage meters. It gives Blizzard some sort of excuse for not buffing the spec because it is "viable" in PvE. If Shadowburn + Havoc is nerfed, then Destro's main abilities are buffed, making it an actually good spec for what it is, in both PvE and PvP.
    Well for all we know Blizzard's simulations still have all three specs close :/ (Xelnath said it several times here)
    But they are already buffing Destro a bit with Conflagrate generating embers, so who knows ? We might have a good surprise before 5.1...
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    What if you were able to do the same amount of damage within 12 seconds but with more casts? I don't think it would hurt burst much except for the first spike of damage.

    Also, Shadowburn + Havoc needs nerfing. The viability of this technique cripples Destruction in so many ways and gives an excuse for not buffing other aspects of it. Just make the Havoc'ed target take less damage from it unless he is also at 20% health.
    If you're putting the same damage within the same window, what's the actual point in spreading it out amongst more casts? I'm not sure what benefit that is going to bring, other than to make reactive cooldowns more effective against you when you're already hugely at the mercy of active prevention through interupts and pressure to force you to use Ember Tap to use up Embers, and prevent you from dealing damage to generate Embers in the first place. The only thing I can see is it softening the blow if things go wrong even though the process itself actually makes that more likely.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    That way they'd be forced to buff other abilities that aren't so niche and clunky. Right now I'm thinking Destruction isn't buffed because of Shadowburn + Havoc's effect on damage meters. It gives Blizzard some sort of excuse for not buffing the spec because it is "viable" in PvE. If Shadowburn + Havoc is nerfed, then Destro's main abilities are buffed, making it an actually good spec for what it is, in both PvE and PvP.
    I think i remember the designers saying it was not intended to work with shadowburn so its kinda a bonus combo atm but i agree our other nukes need some kinda of buff i would be happy with old beta buff to felflame since we spam that in pvp a lot bring back th 75% increase to damage or i would settle for 20% increase at least

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    That way they'd be forced to buff other abilities that aren't so niche and clunky. Right now I'm thinking Destruction isn't buffed because of Shadowburn + Havoc's effect on damage meters. It gives Blizzard some sort of excuse for not buffing the spec because it is "viable" in PvE. If Shadowburn + Havoc is nerfed, then Destro's main abilities are buffed, making it an actually good spec for what it is, in both PvE and PvP.
    i think you totally dream, blizzard is very likely to remove the bug with no compensation at all, making the spec meh (think of destro spec @DS progressing, not viable until xx% nerfs came)

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If you're putting the same damage within the same window, what's the actual point in spreading it out amongst more casts? I'm not sure what benefit that is going to bring, other than to make reactive cooldowns more effective against you when you're already hugely at the mercy of active prevention through interupts and pressure to force you to use Ember Tap to use up Embers, and prevent you from dealing damage to generate Embers in the first place. The only thing I can see is it softening the blow if things go wrong even though the process itself actually makes that more likely.
    Destro burst isnt something exceptional. Rets, Arms, BM, Frost, etc all have about the same effective burst. The only difference is that theirs is split up, which means (A) its more susceptible to be partly resisted/blocked/dodged/etc, and (B) it is psychologically less scary. That is the same goal with this suggestion.

    Look at it this way:
    PRO of this change:
    - Burst is less susceptible to disruption, making it more reliable to use.

    CON of this change:
    - More susceptible to partial mitigation
    But those are more side effects. In the end, the point is not to reduce our burst. The point is to reduce its psychological impact. Because thats the kind of thing that will get us knee-jerk-overnerfed.
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2012-11-06 at 07:25 PM.

  12. #52
    Those classes can't be prevented from building resources though. Doing this gives us all those pitfalls, plus 100% prevention in the first place. Unless you're going to make Ember generation passive and Ember Tap free, then we'd still come out worse in every way.

    As gear improves and time goes on and people get used to it, and how to prevent it; it'll fade as being a big deal. Because it isn't one.

  13. #53
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    If you let the warlock cast 3-4 chaosbolts (which is what he will need to cast, if you are at equal gear levels, which is where balancing is done, in order to kill you) you deserve to die. Many times over. In game and outside.
    On TR, against fully geared players, getting 2 CB's off essentially ends the game. The problem though is that this is way too easy to counter.

    If Immolate gets a damage buff and chaos bolt gets a damage nerf as a result, dispelling will just dominate destruction like it used to since WOTLK.
    Destruction was more than viable in WOTLK and started sucking in Cata. In Cata everyone could dispel Immolate as often as they wanted to. It was also needed for Conflag AND it increased Chaos Bolt and Incinerate damage on the target. A simple damage buff to Immolate would hardly cause Destro to be dominated by dispels again because these circumstances don't exist anymore.

    If Incinerate gets a buff and chaos bolt gets a nerf, nobody will be spending embers on cast chaos bolts. The cast time is insanely long as it is, if the damage is decreased then there will be absolutely no purpose to casting the spell. Compared to saving your embers for self-heals and have your damage come from incinerate and conflagrates.
    The OP actually wants to leave Incinerate and nerf CB damage but give it a faster cast time and make us generate more embers. Our damage output wouldn't change overall, and we would still have the same amount of damage coming from CB. The damage would just come more often in slightly smaller chunks, rather than once every 2 minutes in huge chunks.

    For some reason, and this baffles me, you can ONLY see the extremes with a nerf to CB damage making it completely useless. Not sure if you're just cynical or have some secret want for punishing your class, but nobody here is asking for extremes. That attitude changed on these forums a while ago.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 02:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by loki505 View Post
    sure its still a 2sec cast. and tell me how i get multiple cb off when a warrior in avatar is smashing my face? or if the BR hunter zoo is on my face. there is no1 near the time to get a 2sec cast off. because you will get 2 hits in that time to bring it back to 3sec. and the instand fear death coil and shadow fure are all in the same talent tier. so don't make it looks nicer then it acualy is.
    This isn't a problem with CB, it's a problem with CCs, interrupts, and melee uptime in this game. 2 seconds isn't that hard to get off and a lot of people can do it. The problem is that CB doesn't hit hard enough to warrant an interrupt unless he has all his CDs popped, which makes getting the important casts very difficult to get off. Also, turret specs that are immobile while turreting have always had a problem in arenas and this getting casts off issue isn't just a Destro problem. Right now, the strongest casters are SPriests and Mages because they have a lot of instants and ways to kite. Ele Shamans, Destro locks, Afflic locks, and boomkins are all facing the same problems right now. Nobody can cast with a warrior in your face.

    On a different note, using major CDs as a way to counter a 2 second cast is a very poor argument. Avatar and Stampede are both long CDs and I would hope that you wouldn't try to cast CB with a CD popping warrior in your face.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Those classes can't be prevented from building resources though. Doing this gives us all those pitfalls, plus 100% prevention in the first place. Unless you're going to make Ember generation passive and Ember Tap free, then we'd still come out worse in every way.

    As gear improves and time goes on and people get used to it, and how to prevent it; it'll fade as being a big deal. Because it isn't one.
    Well theorically that is not true, I mean kiting + shields pretty much does exactly that to warriors. But that being said, you do have a point that in realistic situations it is harder for us to build ressources.

    However, that is where the buffed ember generation comes into play. With Conflag and RoF generating some next patch, with the correct number tweaking that fear of yours could easily be aleviated.

    Again: go back and re-read the OP please, because when you keep arguing that nothing needs changing because people will learn to counter CB, you are ignoring half of it:
    FOR THE WARLOCK, the ability can be extremely frustrating to deal with. The reason for that is that in current PvP a 3 seconds cast that shares a very limited ressource with your self-healing is extremely easy to shut off. The fact that all our damage is loaded into it means our damage outside that one cast is laughable. Delay, CC, interrupts, knockbacks, reflects, magic absorbs (AMS/CoS), and even sheer pressure, forcing the lock to Ember Tap, are all enough to ensure the warlock will have an extremely aggravating time getting the cast off at the opportune moment.
    An all or nothing ability like this means that you are 100% right. And thats the problem with it. If it lands, it feels OP for the victim. If its hard countered, it feels UP to the warlock. That is the very reason why we are doing very badly right now in competitive gameplay.
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2012-11-06 at 07:45 PM.

  15. #55
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If you're putting the same damage within the same window, what's the actual point in spreading it out amongst more casts? I'm not sure what benefit that is going to bring, other than to make reactive cooldowns more effective against you when you're already hugely at the mercy of active prevention through interupts and pressure to force you to use Ember Tap to use up Embers, and prevent you from dealing damage to generate Embers in the first place. The only thing I can see is it softening the blow if things go wrong even though the process itself actually makes that more likely.
    Simple, the only arena ladder that matters is 3v3. Right now, you HAVE to create a perfect 3v1 situation with CC while popping all CDs in unison to achieve a kill against high rated teams. They know they just have to stop that 1 massive cast and they are good to go. Making the cast shorter means that we have a higher chance of getting a CB off, and even landing one smaller CB is more beneficial to your team when CD's are popped than not landing any big ones.

    It also reduces the effectiveness of reactive prevention because reactive prevention is very limited. A Spriest can spectral guise my big CB and all of my damage is gone. With this change, a well timed spectral guise would simply mean that one of my CB's isn't going to hit as hard but I still have another available. Also, reducing the damage might mean that teams don't prioritize every single CC they have on the Warlock with CD's popped.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 02:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sster View Post
    i think you totally dream, blizzard is very likely to remove the bug with no compensation at all, making the spec meh (think of destro spec @DS progressing, not viable until xx% nerfs came)
    Sorry but bullshit. Destro was very viable all the way through DS progression. Just talk to ZumZum or myself, we played Destro basically the entire way through Cata. On Morchok, Destro was more than viable. On Zon'ozz it was more than viable. On Yor'sahj it was more than viable. It was amazing on Hagara. Great for Ultrax. The only fight it really lacked on was SPine, but that was a freak encounter that was horribly designed, which Blizz admitted later on.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 02:59 PM ----------

    Destro burst isnt something exceptional. Rets, Arms, BM, Frost, etc all have about the same effective burst. The only difference is that theirs is split up, which means (A) its more susceptible to be partly resisted/blocked/dodged/etc, and (B) it is psychologically less scary. That is the same goal with this suggestion.
    Destro burst right now is actually very underwhelming in a 12 second window. You need to have 4 embers saved up and actually be able to use them in a row, but that takes the full 12 seconds of straight casting. Destro has good one, maybe two shot burst, then it's dead in the water. All the classes you mentioned have better effective burst because of the ease of dealing that burst.

    CON of this change:
    - More susceptible to partial mitigation
    I don't understand this argument. More CB's means they need to use more CDs to cover all of them. Right now, a SPriest can have spectral guise up for every single CB I try to cast. There really isn't a con to your argument in the form of being susceptible to anything. We can cast CB more often which makes it harder to stop and we have better sustained damage so we can't just be ignored until we pop all CD's. We even get the benefit of not losing out on all of our damage if we need to Ember Tap. Sure Ember Tap would have to be nerfed proportionately, but right now a lot of Ember Tap healing isn't needed. More freedom of choice this way.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 03:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Those classes can't be prevented from building resources though. Doing this gives us all those pitfalls, plus 100% prevention in the first place. Unless you're going to make Ember generation passive and Ember Tap free, then we'd still come out worse in every way.

    As gear improves and time goes on and people get used to it, and how to prevent it; it'll fade as being a big deal. Because it isn't one.
    Not doing this still gives us all those pitfalls. Right now you can make a Destro Lock use almost all Embers on Tap, plus they generate very slowly. I don't see how making CB a faster cast time, reducing the damage, and increasing Ember generation makes us more susceptible to CCs and the like.

  16. #56
    I don't understand this argument.
    Ill be honest I was mainly thinking of resists when i wrote this, forgetting they are no longuer ingame. Its still true for misses under the hit cap, but anyone in competitve gameplay will have that.

    That being said, it still comes in play against certain mechanics, like the monk's sparring glyph (x% chance to reflect incomming spells), where more spells cast = more chances at least 1 of them will be reflected, hence partial mitigation.

  17. #57
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    Ill be honest I was mainly thinking of resists when i wrote this, forgetting they are no longuer ingame. Its still true for misses under the hit cap, but anyone in competitve gameplay will have that.

    That being said, it still comes in play against certain mechanics, like the monk's sparring glyph (x% chance to reflect incomming spells), where more spells cast = more chances at least 1 of them will be reflected, hence partial mitigation.
    True, but I can tell that you're very reluctant to even make that argument, which is why I'm don't understand you making it. % chances to reflect something mean the amount of spells cast doesn't change much. The only difference is that getting a smaller, faster CB reflected isn't as game ending as getting a big one reflected (Yay for hunters and their glyphed deterrence). In essence, all of those mitigating effects can't occur all the time. Interrupts, CCs, reflects, ice blocks and shit like spectral guise need to be used smartly. Right now you simply hold those against a Destro lock and use them on his one big attack. Which is what you've been arguing for a while. By letting us cast CB more often they can't just use a CD every time. True it makes one CB less dangerous, but it also means we have some decent pressure outside of CDs.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    However, that is where the buffed ember generation comes into play. With Conflag and RoF generating some next patch, with the correct number tweaking that fear of yours could easily be aleviated.
    RoF already generates embers live.

    I will burn your soul.

  19. #59
    Pretty much, yeah. Like I said, I had an outdated mechanic in mind when I made that argument, but i agree with your last post.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 09:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Supernex View Post
    RoF already generates embers live.
    Should have said "some more" i guess heh. RoF no longuer requires immolate and ticks twice as fast.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If you're putting the same damage within the same window, what's the actual point in spreading it out amongst more casts? I'm not sure what benefit that is going to bring, other than to make reactive cooldowns more effective against you when you're already hugely at the mercy of active prevention through interupts and pressure to force you to use Ember Tap to use up Embers, and prevent you from dealing damage to generate Embers in the first place. The only thing I can see is it softening the blow if things go wrong even though the process itself actually makes that more likely.
    Well, by reducing Chaos Bolt's cast time and damage, first of all you sort of reduce your dependency on the spell. Interrupts on chaos bolt can be slightly made up for by using incinerate, pulling it Off becomes easier and fake casting doesn't require you to spend 2 seconds for each cast.

    As for the resource issue, I've mentioned it since embers and fury were first implemented: if you're going to start with such a hard to gain resource, it should be rewarding enough. In the case of pvp, it practically means a certain win. Sadly, that model doesn't work in pvp. But basically, our burst should be the highest simply because it takes the most ramp up time by a huge margin. It's not fun design for neither the warlock or the opponent, but if we're supposed to get a just reward for the cost, that's how it should be.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 10:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    True, but I can tell The only difference is that getting a smaller, faster CB reflected isn't as game ending as getting a big one reflected (Yay for hunters and their glyphed deterrence). In essence, all of those mitigating effects can't occur all the time. Interrupts, CCs, reflects, ice blocks and shit like spectral guise need to be used smartly. Right now you simply hold those against a Destro lock and use them on his one big attack. Which is what you've been arguing for a while. By letting us cast CB more often they can't just use a CD every time. True it makes one CB less dangerous, but it also means we have some decent pressure outside of CDs.
    I was thinking that something within the lines of: 4 Chaos bolts now would be the equivalent of 4 chaos bolts + 2 Incinerates in a later patch. If shadowburn and havoc is nerfed them I think there should be enough room for buffing incinerate and ember generation, along with a reduction to chaos bolt's damage and cast time. This would make our burst within 12 seconds stay the same, but making it leas lol-ish, while buffing our sustained damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

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