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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Why after years of QQ about Destruction damage being flat, and having ineffectual burst/poor control over output are people now wanting it flattening again?
    When did anybody ever ask for that...? I regret losing sustained damage. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    When did anybody ever ask for that...? I regret losing sustained damage. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that does.
    You're not alone. Losing sustained damage is the reason why I am not allowed to raid in Destruction spec.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iry View Post
    • Reduce Chaos Bolt damage to 75% of its current value.
    • Chaos Bolt consumes only 1 Havoc charge.
    • Chaos Bolt consumes only 1 Backdraft charge.
    I really like this. It is a minor decrease in single target damage but really gives Destruction their niche in cleave fights. It also reduces PvP complaints about insane burst by doing even more total damage but split between two targets.
    Last edited by Telemont; 2012-11-10 at 06:16 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    This won't fix the issues destro has. Namely inviability at high rating because all you need is a single cooldown, interrupt or even a dispel every 2 minutes to block it.
    Why do poeple bring up the dispell thing every 2 minutes in pvp? Didn't Xelnath announce that Dark Soul would be the first Curse Buff? Which means undispellable?

    Remove Chaos Bolt from Backdraft is still what I'd go for. You either want a 3 second cast that is punishing if not countered or you want backdrafted Chaos Bolts which do shitty dmg but are easy to cast (in PvP). You can't have a design with both, because either opponents will complain either about Backdrafted Chaos Bolts or warlocks will complain about it's damage for a 3 second cast being shit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Seriously you have to stop with that idea... Someone is posting that every two days, this is a BAD idea because single target damage will be balanced around using it, so your cleave damage will be limited to having a second Immolate : YAAAAY.
    You forgot Rain of Fire.
    Last edited by darlissa; 2012-11-10 at 10:37 PM.

  4. #104
    As a demo warlock I have no problem face rolling destro 1v1, in fact more often than not I'm at full health dancing on their corpse. How anyone can have a problem killing the worst lock pvp spec is beyond me.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    When did anybody ever ask for that...? I regret losing sustained damage. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that does.
    You may not, but "Blow your cooldowns" had long been a running joke for Destruction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Telemont View Post
    You're not alone. Losing sustained damage is the reason why I am not allowed to raid in Destruction spec.I really like this. It is a minor decrease in single target damage but really gives Destruction their niche in cleave fights. It also reduces PvP complaints about insane burst by doing even more total damage but split between two targets.
    This is just rediculous, I'd recommend finding a new raiding team for two reasons: Firstly not being 'allowed' to play a perfectly viable spec, and Second because in no encounter in history has sustained damage been an important factor. Quite the contrary, control, snap and burst damage have always been very important.

    Again though: Why are we looking to nerf the spec simply to mitigate complaints? It's retarded when in fact the spec works pretty well other than missing a little CC, but otherwise isn't actually overpowered. All it's doing is making people moan about a big number which is no bigger than the cumulitive number put out by other specs more easily and with less setup in comparable time. It's just a number, it's meaningless within the whole package and yet there is nothing that would ever stop people zeroing in on it without breaking other things in the box.
    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    Why do poeple bring up the dispell thing every 2 minutes in pvp? Didn't Xelnath announce that Dark Soul would be the first Curse Buff? Which means undispellable?
    Because they're talking about Live. Curse or not though, you can still CC, LoS, or force movement through it, and otherwise prevent the cast.

    Remove Chaos Bolt from Backdraft is still what I'd go for. You either want a 3 second cast that is punishing if not countered or you want backdrafted Chaos Bolts which do shitty dmg but are easy to cast (in PvP). You can't have a design with both, because either opponents will complain either about Backdrafted Chaos Bolts or warlocks will complain about it's damage for a 3 second cast being shit.
    This actually seems fair enough, you don't want to use backdrafted Chaos Bolts in PVE anyway.

    You forgot Rain of Fire.
    Is pretty minor DPS. Even still, I wouldn't want Havoc single target, it just becomes another button to press on cooldown without serving any real purpose, nor providing any additional damage when cleaving - it would just make your damage split, which is pretty lame and potentially actually detrimental given that extra effort for no benefit generally results in a net loss.

  6. #106
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    I think the only way to make everyone happy is to give destruction a better way to sustain its dmg, can't seem to go well without adds on a fight since the dmg will drop a lot without cleave and ability to gain embers from shadowburn.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Is pretty minor DPS. Even still, I wouldn't want Havoc single target, it just becomes another button to press on cooldown without serving any real purpose, nor providing any additional damage when cleaving - it would just make your damage split, which is pretty lame and potentially actually detrimental given that extra effort for no benefit generally results in a net loss.
    Mentioning Rain of Fire was sacrasm (more or less). Havoc working on single target would be a very bad idea.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    This is just rediculous, I'd recommend finding a new raiding team for two reasons: Firstly not being 'allowed' to play a perfectly viable spec, and Second because in no encounter in history has sustained damage been an important factor. Quite the contrary, control, snap and burst damage have always been very important.
    "Perfectly Viable" is just fine when you've got a boss on farm status, but in the beginning of an expansion when you are first trying to defeat a boss there is very little reason to settle for sub-par specs except to avoid hurting people's feelings. Your second statement is just patently false.
    Again though: Why are we looking to nerf the spec simply to mitigate complaints? It's retarded when in fact the spec works pretty well other than missing a little CC, but otherwise isn't actually overpowered. All it's doing is making people moan about a big number which is no bigger than the cumulitive number put out by other specs more easily and with less setup in comparable time. It's just a number, it's meaningless within the whole package and yet there is nothing that would ever stop people zeroing in on it without breaking other things in the box.
    Destro does not have sufficient sustain during PvE boss fights. Destro does too much single target damage in PvP when used with Instability. The mentioned changes above fix both problems without Destro being 'just another mage'.
    Last edited by Telemont; 2012-11-11 at 01:17 AM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Telemont View Post
    "Perfectly Viable" is just fine when you've got a boss on farm status, but in the beginning of an expansion when you are first trying to defeat a boss there is very little reason to settle for sub-par specs except to avoid hurting people's feelings. Your second statement is just patently false.
    Destro does not have sufficient sustain during PvE boss fights. Destro does too much single target damage in PvP when used with Instability. The mentioned changes above fix both problems without Destro being 'just another mage'.
    Aside from Zumzum having demonstrated, with parses, that Destruction is not "sub-par"; I think you're confusing 'sustained damage' with overall output. Sustained would be consistent, flat damage. That is something that serves no special purpose in PvE - that's not to say it's bad, it just doesn't serve any special purpose and it lacks adaptability.

    Edit: That is my real concern about all these calls to nerf CB. Lowering the peaks, and bringing up the baseline correspondingly hurts the spec's capacity to adapt within an encounter, be it PvE or PvE, and a spec that's unable to adapt it's output is never going to excel and it's precisely that that's held the spec back for the past two expansions. Suddenly it can do these things, and you cry nerf? And not nerf because it's overpowered, but nerf purely and simply to stop people crying over a big number. It's madness, and worst of all people are bringing the exact same shit over to Demonology, presumably because they can see it "working" here.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2012-11-11 at 02:23 AM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Aside from Zumzum having demonstrated, with parses, that Destruction is not "sub-par"; I think you're confusing 'sustained damage' with overall output. Sustained would be consistent, flat damage. That is something that serves no special purpose in PvE - that's not to say it's bad, it just doesn't serve any special purpose and it lacks adaptability.

    Edit: That is my real concern about all these calls to nerf CB. Lowering the peaks, and bringing up the baseline correspondingly hurts the spec's capacity to adapt within an encounter, be it PvE or PvE, and a spec that's unable to adapt it's output is never going to excel and it's precisely that that's held the spec back for the past two expansions. Suddenly it can do these things, and you cry nerf? And not nerf because it's overpowered, but nerf purely and simply to stop people crying over a big number. It's madness, and worst of all people are bringing the exact same shit over to Demonology, presumably because they can see it "working" here.
    Jessicka (2) > Telemont (0). Game. Set. Match.

    I will burn your soul.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Aside from Zumzum having demonstrated, with parses, that Destruction is not "sub-par"; I think you're confusing 'sustained damage' with overall output. Sustained would be consistent, flat damage. That is something that serves no special purpose in PvE - that's not to say it's bad, it just doesn't serve any special purpose and it lacks adaptability.
    Zumzum is an outlier, and not representative of the skill level of the majority of Destro players in the game. What is possible with ideal play is not possible for some or even most. You don't balance around the best of the best, you balance around the majority. Sustained damage is quite important in PvE, especialy MoP where the majority of bosses are based around long burn phases with some minor gimmick, instead of the constant tricks that we encountered in Cataclysm.

    Lowering the peaks, and bringing up the baseline correspondingly hurts the spec's capacity to adapt within an encounter, be it PvE or PvE, and a spec that's unable to adapt it's output is never going to excel and it's precisely that that's held the spec back for the past two expansions. Suddenly it can do these things, and you cry nerf? And not nerf because it's overpowered, but nerf purely and simply to stop people crying over a big number. It's madness, and worst of all people are bringing the exact same shit over to Demonology, presumably because they can see it "working" here.
    The need for adaptation is at an all time low in MoP. Correspondingly, Destructions ability to adapt at the cost of baseline DPS is making it outright undesirable to raid with. And, within the context of PVP the ability to heavily damage two targets instead of one actually adds the very versatility that you are talking about! Not only is adaptation a completely nebulous concept to try and balance around, but the change would only cause a reduction in versatility is on single target fights, and increase it in almost every other circumstance.
    Last edited by Telemont; 2012-11-11 at 04:11 AM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Supernex View Post
    Jessicka (2) > Telemont (0). Game. Set. Match.
    While Jessicka is no doubt a respected member of this forum, her posts do not reflect a complete understanding of the consequences of my proposed changes. Increasing the damage on all fights in PvE except single target fights increases versatility. Being able to use Havoc with multiple Chaos Bolts increases versatility (with the ability to target multiple enemies with Chaos Bolts). Being able to use Backdraft with multiple Chaos Bolts increases versatility (with the ability to mix and match Chaos Bolts with other single target spells) Gaining 1.8 seconds of casting time over the current three ember burn phase also increases versatility.

  13. #113
    The devs are reluctant to reduce Chaos Bolt's damage because they want it to fit in with their 'theme' of destruction warlocks; it's somewhat a lore thing. Not to mention the fact that the whole ember system is based around it. Nerf Chaos Bolt too much and you may as well just remove Burning Embers completely.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    Why do poeple bring up the dispell thing every 2 minutes in pvp? Didn't Xelnath announce that Dark Soul would be the first Curse Buff? Which means undispellable?
    Maybe because we're not playing 5.1?

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Aside from Zumzum having demonstrated, with parses, that Destruction is not "sub-par"; I think you're confusing 'sustained damage' with overall output. Sustained would be consistent, flat damage. That is something that serves no special purpose in PvE - that's not to say it's bad, it just doesn't serve any special purpose and it lacks adaptability.

    Edit: That is my real concern about all these calls to nerf CB. Lowering the peaks, and bringing up the baseline correspondingly hurts the spec's capacity to adapt within an encounter, be it PvE or PvE, and a spec that's unable to adapt it's output is never going to excel and it's precisely that that's held the spec back for the past two expansions. Suddenly it can do these things, and you cry nerf? And not nerf because it's overpowered, but nerf purely and simply to stop people crying over a big number. It's madness, and worst of all people are bringing the exact same shit over to Demonology, presumably because they can see it "working" here.
    I've honestly never seen a single Destruction warlock complaining about sustained damage. That's the spec. And the changes that I've personally been proposing would make your burst damage the same within an interval of 12 seconds but spread out between multiple shorter casts. That is actually better than landing 4 slow casts. I really don't understand why would you oppose to such changes. It would be a buff to sustained which is already lacking, and an improvement for burst in terms of usage, not damage.
    This change would be vompensated through nerfing the Shadowburn+Havoc combo, which I think is pretty high when considering fights such as Elegon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Telemont View Post
    Zumzum is an outlier, and not representative of the skill level of the majority of Destro players in the game. What is possible with ideal play is not possible for some or even most. You don't balance around the best of the best, you balance around the majority. Sustained damage is quite important in PvE, especialy MoP where the majority of bosses are based around long burn phases with some minor gimmick, instead of the constant tricks that we encountered in Cataclysm.

    The need for adaptation is at an all time low in MoP. Correspondingly, Destructions ability to adapt at the cost of baseline DPS is making it outright undesirable to raid with. And, within the context of PVP the ability to heavily damage two targets instead of one actually adds the very versatility that you are talking about! Not only is adaptation a completely nebulous concept to try and balance around, but the change would only cause a reduction in versatility is on single target fights, and increase it in almost every other circumstance.
    In encounters where burst and control isn't required, the timing of cooldowns becomes irrelevant as does burst - all that matters then is overall output. Again, you're confusing overall output with sustained output. I think Zumzum is only an outlier because the majority of players, like yourself, believe erroneously that Destruction is an underperforming spec and so people wont take it and if it's not being used, it wont put up parses. In actual fact though, the ability for specs to cleave is very important this tier, and Destruction as stands, is just incredible at that (even without Shadowburn-Havoc sniping) and when I've tried it myself in LFR to get used to it and as a result made lots of mistakes I've really not found it lacking in output, nor too punishing in terms of difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iry View Post
    While Jessicka is no doubt a respected member of this forum, her posts do not reflect a complete understanding of the consequences of my proposed changes. Increasing the damage on all fights in PvE except single target fights increases versatility. Being able to use Havoc with multiple Chaos Bolts increases versatility (with the ability to target multiple enemies with Chaos Bolts). Being able to use Backdraft with multiple Chaos Bolts increases versatility (with the ability to mix and match Chaos Bolts with other single target spells) Gaining 1.8 seconds of casting time over the current three ember burn phase also increases versatility.
    At a heavy cost to controlled output against single targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    I've honestly never seen a single Destruction warlock complaining about sustained damage. That's the spec. And the changes that I've personally been proposing would make your burst damage the same within an interval of 12 seconds but spread out between multiple shorter casts. That is actually better than landing 4 slow casts. I really don't understand why would you oppose to such changes. It would be a buff to sustained which is already lacking, and an improvement for burst in terms of usage, not damage.
    This change would be vompensated through nerfing the Shadowburn+Havoc combo, which I think is pretty high when considering fights such as Elegon.
    Because it makes the damage more easily mitigable; when given the time and effort to set up, shouldn't be because all that setup time is where the mitigation - through prevention - should be happening. It's straight up 'unfair' when you've spent all that time being supposedly vulnerable getting yourselves into a strong position, where all those errors by your opponents have stacked up to allow you to do it can be wiped out at the push of a defensive cooldown button.

    I think the real reason for the complaints about Chaos Bolt, Chaos Wave, Taste for Blood and so on are actually symptomatic of how overpowered healing is in PVP. The whole 'Build up and Burn' playstyle seems to be the only thing that actually works against it; because that downtime during build up really isn't as vulnerable as it should be where pressure play from specs like Affliction used to reap havoc and yet the only thing that can cut through the healing is this kind of exceptionally strong burst.

  17. #117
    But it's easier to avoid Chaos Bolt as it is, in one slow giant cast... If it were easily mitigable, then Shadowpriest and Demonology damage would be bad. Having your burst spread out between multiple casts is just better, the only class that benefits from this change would be Monk. Think of it: Warrior spell reflects, mage ice block, shadowpriest dispersion, DK AMS, Warlock Dark Bargain, Hunter Deterrence, etc... Most classes have short-lived defensive abilities that mostly counter the first incoming ability. That's why if you currently get 1 Chaos Bolt countered, you lose a lot of pressure. The only disadvantage this change presents is reduced spike damage, but it would be more frequent within the mentioned 12 seconds, allow for more pauses, make fake casting more feasible and increase mobility.

    And yes, I agree with your last statement, and I've said before that although this kind of design sounds good, it can't be applied in PvP, since no matter how much time it takes you to ramp up, in the end you'll mostly "automatically" win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I think the real reason for the complaints about Chaos Bolt, Chaos Wave, Taste for Blood and so on are actually symptomatic of how overpowered healing is in PVP. The whole 'Build up and Burn' playstyle seems to be the only thing that actually works against it; because that downtime during build up really isn't as vulnerable as it should be where pressure play from specs like Affliction used to reap havoc and yet the only thing that can cut through the healing is this kind of exceptionally strong burst.
    This. My Chaos Bolts (1600 raiting for conquest cap, 8k pvp power, just letting you know the bracket i'm in) are globaled by almost every healer unless I can chain them back to back until something dies. Havok helps apply pressure but its not like ONE chaos bolt has ever killed a geared person for me, it's always been a chain of them during an unending resolve (to ensure I don't get kicked).

    I really wish unstable affliction did more damage when dispelled so i could pvp as it but as it stands MG has made our initial dots too weak.
    Soulburn: Unstable Affliction. A boy can dream.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    At a heavy cost to controlled output against single targets.
    You can use the extra cast time to squeeze in another buffed incinerate during a burst phase. That extra damage, and the resulting bonus ember, gives you a comparative single target damage rating of 390%, versus the current 427.5%. That is only an 8.77% single target damage difference. I do not consider that a heavy cost, and if you know you are going into a single target boss battle you can always change specs.
    Last edited by Iry; 2012-11-11 at 09:09 PM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Iry View Post
    ......and if you know you are going into a single target boss battle you can always change specs.
    And that's the part Blizzard will never condone. They want each spec to be viable as closely as possible on single target, so people can do their dungeons and scenarios and dailies at the same level as each other spec.

    If there's going to be any balancing done it's going to be around single target damage, not cleave damage.
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