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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    And that's the part Blizzard will never condone. They want each spec to be viable as closely as possible on single target, so people can do their dungeons and scenarios and dailies at the same level as each other spec.

    If there's going to be any balancing done it's going to be around single target damage, not cleave damage.
    Blizzard already condoned it by giving us two specs and the ability to swap them between bosses. They have consistently proven that they do not mind different specs having different specialties. While all specs should be able to contribute a baseline under any situation, you as a player reserve the right to change specs if you are unsatisfied with that baseline.

    Increasing single target damage only leads to homogenization; embracing specialties while ensuring that nobody falls below a baseline outside of specialties leads to spec diversification.

  2. #122
    Super Moderator xskarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iry View Post
    Blizzard already condoned it by giving us two specs and the ability to swap them between bosses. They have consistently proven that they do not mind different specs having different specialties. While all specs should be able to contribute a baseline under any situation, you as a player reserve the right to change specs if you are unsatisfied with that baseline.

    Increasing single target damage only leads to homogenization; embracing specialties while ensuring that nobody falls below a baseline outside of specialties leads to spec diversification.
    For the need of discussion we need to establish if you indeed mean you want Blizz to sacrifice single target output to improve cleaving. Because if you do then I'll restate it: Bizz does not balance around cleaving, but around single target. They will shoot for homogenization to a high level of equality between classes/specs and only then look at any diversity. Wishing Blizz to diversify to the level that you are forced to go to another spec for ANY type of content is a fool's errand; it will never happen. Some specs will shine at different niches, but that will always be a perk, and not their purpose.

    You may think it's allright to swap between specs at the drop of a hat, most people do not think that way, and want their spec to be just as good as any other. This goes mostly for single target damage, as that is the bulk of what you do in the game. Purposefully lowering that to increase the specs use in raids (and only in some fights) that only make up a tiny part of the game will never happen.
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  3. #123
    kinda funny everyone qqs about the CB but no threaths about warriors dragon roar doing 200k+ on multiple targets *troll*

  4. #124
    i normally stay away form this sort of stuff, but i guess chiming in once in 6 years isnt too bad.
    personally i think a modle like this could make people on both sides a bit happier as well as be
    synergistic with the lore and playstyle of destro



    cb damage reduced by 30%
    immolate damage increased by 20% from 25k per 3 sec tick to 30k

    chaosbolt striking an immolated target causes immolate to become chaotic flames.

    chaotic flames deals immolates same dmamge but at double the tick frequency (37k per 1.5 seconds) for the same duration (15sec).
    if dispelled the remaining damage of chaotic flames will be split between the dispeller and original target.
    targets effected by chaotic flames take 30% increased damage from fel flame and chaosbolt.

    fel flame now refreshes the duration of immolate, corruptions and chaotic flames.

    immolate and chaotic flames can exist on a target at the same time,
    more than one chaotic flames can be presant on a target(s) at once.

    conflagrate works on both immolate and chaotic flames


    cb base damage lowered for the qq'ers but with a full stack of embers there's still good burst

    immolate gains pvp dispell protection and well as gets beefed up to actually matter in both pvp and pve

    creates a mechanic that requires planning and set (1.5 sec immolate +gcd + conflag +gcd + 2sec CB)
    ~6 seconds of free casting + controlling a healer to not dispell immolate before it can be turned into CF

    or if your at long range, possible chaos bolt and hope you can get immolate off before it lands

    up but rewards the lock with a nice toolkit of:

    dispell protection, a worthwhile intant cast attack, multi target pressure (via fire and brimstone immolate + havoc CB)

    and after ramp up time, a large pve buff to destro via multiple instance of CF on the target (probably want to cap that at like 3 or so though)

    anyhow %'s are give and take, but i think that would be fun to play and not too hard to play against


    edit for too to and two
    Last edited by bryanmathis; 2012-11-12 at 04:32 AM.

  5. #125
    @bryanmathis: you'd force stacking 4 embers and then using them all at once, so the damage of the last 3 chaos bolts is increased by 30%. I don't think I'd like such a playstyle.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    @bryanmathis: you'd force stacking 4 embers and then using them all at once, so the damage of the last 3 chaos bolts is increased by 30%. I don't think I'd like such a playstyle.
    in my fantasy hypothetical land, my thing was that for pve you would have this scenario:

    begin combat w/ a boss

    throw up pot---> coe--> pop trinkets/ and DS--> immolate -->> chaos bolt (or conflag to CB)-- >> (immolate is now chaotic flames) --->immolate again as CF and immolate can exist at the same time-->> incin spam to build embers/conflag as needed---> fel flame to refresh CF and immo --> have another ember for CB, turns immolate into stack 2 of CF--->>

    so you do end up spending embers to stack the damage of CF (if we assume that CF is allowed to stack, if we assume this happens at all) otherwise after the first CB, you just use fel flame to refresh CF and continue enjoy CB at full damage unless your dots fall off.

    for pvp id imagine

    immolate target--fear/interrupt healer--conflag--chaosbolt--kite using fel flame as main source of damage, try and force healer to dispell the constantly refreshed CF which will deal direct damage for you, chaos bolt to reapply or as opportunities present themselves


    it isn't perfect or even that great, just imo a bit better than what we're faced with atm.


    any suggestions as to what would make it (not that it would ever really happen) better for your personal play style?

  7. #127
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    That will never happen since the spec is supposed to be rather simple and you propose something rather... complex (not to mention you would destroy the spec's quick cleaves )
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    For the need of discussion we need to establish if you indeed mean you want Blizz to sacrifice single target output to improve cleaving.
    There should be a baseline single target damage that all DPS classes are capable of attaining. From that baseline, certain specs should excel at certain types of fights. A hunter spec might excel at single target above the baseline, a mage spec might excel at true multi target AOE, and destro spec might excel at cleaving.
    Wishing Blizz to diversify to the level that you are forced to go to another spec for ANY type of content is a fool's errand; it will never happen. Some specs will shine at different niches, but that will always be a perk, and not their purpose.
    Nobody should be forced to change specs unless they are in a cutting edge progression guild, but specialization can and should happen such that certain specs excel at certain fight mechanics. This is already the case. Destruction warlocks just need to have their specialization cemented. If someone wants to change specs between boss fights because it favors a certain fight mechanic then they have that option, and options are good.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telemont View Post
    Zumzum is an outlier, and not representative of the skill level of the majority of Destro players in the game. What is possible with ideal play is not possible for some or even most. You don't balance around the best of the best, you balance around the majority. Sustained damage is quite important in PvE, especialy MoP where the majority of bosses are based around long burn phases with some minor gimmick, instead of the constant tricks that we encountered in Cataclysm.
    .
    I seem to remember a 1% of hunters nerfing the other 99%. Hey, the original 99%!! Occupy Blizzard!

    Quote Originally Posted by Iry View Post
    There should be a baseline single target damage that all DPS classes are capable of attaining. From that baseline, certain specs should excel at certain types of fights. A hunter spec might excel at single target above the baseline, a mage spec might excel at true multi target AOE, and destro spec might excel at cleaving. Nobody should be forced to change specs unless they are in a cutting edge progression guild, but specialization can and should happen such that certain specs excel at certain fight mechanics. This is already the case. Destruction warlocks just need to have their specialization cemented. If someone wants to change specs between boss fights because it favors a certain fight mechanic then they have that option, and options are good.
    This is a case where perception makes reality. If a spec is better for an encounter, why wouldn't you use it? You can be selfish and play the spec you enjoy, and in LFR that's all well and good, but even if you're not in a progression guild, you're in a guild that's plodding along and you're coming up to a new encounter that you need to do your best on, you're forced into the spec that works the best. Maybe you force yourself knowing that others are relying on you as much as you are relying on them, or maybe the people you raid with and leaders see that one spec performs the best and makes you raid as that spec, but one way or another, you're being forced into the niche spec. It becomes less of an option.

    We'd like to think that it never happens, but it's the norm. We all know that all specs work, or are viable in one sense of the word, but as soon as it comes time to pull the boss, most people who take raiding even marginally seriously are going to pick the spec that works best. It's no longer an option at that point. That's why specialization can never work by design. At minimum it forces players into specific specs for fights, at higher levels it'll force a higher level of class stacking to exploit those specializations.

  10. #130
    Keyboard Turner Destrowrath's Avatar
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    I'm actually really happy with having all the specs as good as they are...


    Lol jk they really need to fix chaos bolt so we have a better shot in areana. Demon is the only one good in 3s at a high rating.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    Anyone else remember when CB went through pally bubble?
    Good times.
    You mean that 1 week on beta/ptr?

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    You mean that 1 week on beta/ptr?
    I seem to remember killing Mages & Paladins through IB/bubble for quite some time live...

    I will burn your soul.

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