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  1. #61
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Its what the Alliance should get if they win. As I stated...they won't win. There won't be an all-encompassing overwhelming Alliance victory because the game won't allow it. As a result, there will be some fudge which will get the Horde "off the hook" and forgiven for everythign they have done and as a result, the Alliance won't get what they should.

    Its the difference between what the Alliance would be getting if they were to demand what they should by all rights want, and what they'll get because of the outside restrictions impsoed because this is a gameworld. In the former scenario, the Alliance - contrary to your assertion - should get a big say in how the Horde is run. In the latter, they won't.

    In short - the Alliance SHOULD want to get their lands back, and they should arrange things so that they can keep an eye on the Horde so they can't be assaulted or invaded again. As a gameworld, there will be some factor which will leave the Horde in place and their actions forgiven.

    EJL
    Because the Alliance isn't strong enough to easily overwhelm the horde and have enough troops to occupy their territories afterwards,even if they are Quel'thalas would be logistical nightmare since they have so many mages and can easily get more, due to their heritage how can you really control such a population.

    The forsaken established their kingdom through guerillia warfare and will most likely kill most of the new settlers through ambushes.

    Orcs will have to be watched the most, since they are the most bloodthirsty

    The Tauren might tolerate an occupation for a time, but certainly not for long

    The Darkspear will wait and strike when the time is right to reclaim their land.

    Neither side has hopes of ever achieving total victory unless they wipe their opponent out entirely, and even that is almost impossible in that medieval world.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-11-03 at 06:13 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Your average orc will adapt to whatever their Warchief decrees. When Thrall took over, shamanism saw a huge revival in orcish culture because Thrall was a shaman and the orcs seem predisposed toward emulating their Warchief. When Garrosh took over and began whitewashing the Old Horde as the 'glory days,' those orcs who weren't around before the internment camps latched onto it and emulated his behavior. It's shown that almost every single Second War vet and a good portion of those who survived Hyjal are strongly opposed to Garrosh, but keep their heads low to avoid the civil war that's on the border of breaking out among the two generations and even between the warriors and those shaman who remain loyal to Thrall's teachings, and this problem has only been exacerbated recently with the revalation that the Kor'kron (its leader in particular) are beating, intimidating, or even killing members of the Horde in orcish territory who speak out against Garrosh, even in discontented muttering.

    That's not to say that I disagree in regards to the orcs having demonstrated that they're not ready to call all the shots in the political world, just that orcish culture isn't cut-and-dry to the point that they're all bloodthirsty sociopaths like the current Warchief. Most of them emulate their Warchief's edicts and behaviors because that's how their culture is (and in some cases, they haven't learned from their parents' cautionary tales).
    Maybe the greatest method for teaching Orcs would be granting them immortality to live with the mistakes they made and the defeat they will inevitably suffer as a result lol. Still I wouldn't call Garrosh a sociopath, it's not sociopathy that drives a supremacist attitude. Garrosh, in his twisted way, cares about the Orcs, the problem is he cares about them in some sepia-toned ideological way where after he's killed every last enemy of the Orcs, real, perceived, or otherwise they will finally have a chance to live in "peace" (well duh) and the orcs are so superior and powerful that when the next external threat from say, the Legion crashes into Azeroth Orcs can defeat it.

  3. #63
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Your average orc will adapt to whatever their Warchief decrees.
    Which is why I see it as a matter the Alliance should somewhat involved/interested in it. To put it bluntly Orcs are sheep, they're mostly easily indoctrinated for better or worse.

  4. #64
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Any *orc* can manage. Orcs are a weak-minded people. Plenty of other races have risen up against their own upon seeing them go down a dark path. Orcs on the other hand, chug down the demon blood and join in the carnage.

    Not for someone like Thrall. He brought the Horde up from when it was in the toilet. Now he has to go against the people he brought back up. Last time that happened was when Grom drank Demon Blood again.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple

  5. #65
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    You use other magic users. The BElfs aren't the only ones who use magic.

    If the Alliance was ever in a posiiton to enforce these terms, that would already have been tried and failed.

    EJL
    You would have to practically station every last Kirin tor mage in Silvermoon to even hope to control them, and every last citizen is adept in siphoning arcane power from living beings, if the civilian population revolts there is no way to keep them suppressed and it would take weeks for reinforcements to arrive, weakening occupation elsewhere, triggering a chain reaction.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 07:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    A revolution if the occupying force is ruthless and cruel. If the occupying force helps them rebuild, guides their hand, lays out what the terms are for living in Azeroth with the natives, things can always move forward.
    If the last time the Alliance had a say over another race is any indication it will be definitely be the first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    The Mogu used dark magics as a large portion of their arsenal, equally as much as they used weapons and physical strength, the Pandaren countered this. Monk spells and abilities emulate it, to a lesser degree, for sake of balance.
    The mogu weren't only overthrown by the Pandaren, but by every of their subdued races, which pretty much makes my point, if the general population truly rises there is no way an occupation force can survive such a storm.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    If the last time the Alliance had a say over another race is any indication it will be definitely be the first.
    What do you mean?

    The mogu weren't only overthrown by the Pandaren, but by every of their subdued races, which pretty much makes my point, if the general population truly rises there is no way an occupation force can survive such a storm.
    I'm not talking about occupying every last bit of Horde land, in my scenario the bad seed, the problem child, the ones needed to be policed heavily are the Orcs. Every incursion into sovereign Alliance lands was spearheaded by the Orcs with the intention of gaining resources and land for their people. Other Horde races served as mere fodder. Mulgore, Echo Isles, Silvermoon and Lordaeron will be left to their own devices, as a means of maintaining a balance gamewise, because its impractical to wage war against these areas upon a ceasefire, because the bulk of the aggression came in Kalimdor from the Orcs. I'd say the only terms laid out in EK would be leaving Gilneas alone, and withdrawing any Forsaken incursions back to the borders of Lordaeron proper. Treaties will have terms, terms will be enforced. Even demilitarised zones (a new concept) could be put in place, automatically becoming a sanctuary etc.

    To think the Orcs are just going to walk away from this without having to pay for their crimes is just inconceivable. But then it's not my story so that may very well happen. It'd be a pointless waste of time and resources to put Alliance presence in say, Silvermoon, especially when Lor'themar was entertaining peace til Jaina screwed things up. Lordaeron is the only thing I can see the Alliance trying to meddle with using whatever accord comes out of bringing down Garrosh. Thats a different topic all together I suppose.

  7. #67
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    What do you mean?
    The orcs had been put into interment camps and had not been treated well, humans hat their guts, I just can't see them to be friendly to orcs at their mercy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    I'm not talking about occupying every last bit of Horde land, in my scenario the bad seed, the problem child, the ones needed to be policed heavily are the Orcs. Every incursion into sovereign Alliance lands was spearheaded by the Orcs with the intention of gaining resources and land for their people. Other Horde races served as mere fodder. Mulgore, Echo Isles, Silvermoon and Lordaeron will be left to their own devices, as a means of maintaining a balance gamewise, because its impractical to wage war against these areas upon a ceasefire, because the bulk of the aggression came in Kalimdor from the Orcs. I'd say the only terms laid out in EK would be leaving Gilneas alone, and withdrawing any Forsaken incursions back to the borders of Lordaeron proper. Treaties will have terms, terms will be enforced. Even demilitarised zones (a new concept) could be put in place, automatically becoming a sanctuary etc.

    To think the Orcs are just going to walk away from this without having to pay for their crimes is just inconceivable. But then it's not my story so that may very well happen. It'd be a pointless waste of time and resources to put Alliance presence in say, Silvermoon, especially when Lor'themar was entertaining peace til Jaina screwed things up. Lordaeron is the only thing I can see the Alliance trying to meddle with using whatever accord comes out of bringing down Garrosh. Thats a different topic all together I suppose.
    That bit was more or less directed at Talen, your scenario would be possible, but it is unlikely. Though Orcs and forsaken really need to be watched.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    Not for someone like Thrall. He brought the Horde up from when it was in the toilet. Now he has to go against the people he brought back up. Last time that happened was when Grom drank Demon Blood again.
    Ya, but those like Thrall are a minority. Most of the time its a small group of lunatics with their powerful leader going mad, put down by the majority of the population. Like Azshara or Kael'thas. Orcs and Draenei are the opposite, the majority of their race did go down dark path, only a minority refused.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 06:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The orcs had been put into interment camps and had not been treated well, humans hat their guts, I just can't see them to be friendly to orcs at their mercy.
    Why do people cite this and disregard the backstory behind it? What to do with thousands of demon-empowered aliens that stormed into our quiet little planet with the intention of destroying all of us and reveling in the carnage as they literally plundered, raped, and pillaged the world? Well they could've executed them all for the war crimes everyone knows they committed, but they opted for imprisoning them. It was prison for the crimes they committed. That was a generation ago, however and the average orc grunt in the current conflict hasn't committed any war crimes, so far anyways.
    Last edited by Justignoreme; 2012-11-03 at 06:40 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Why do people cite this and disregard the backstory behind it? What to do with thousands of demon-empowered aliens that stormed into our quiet little planet with the intention of destroying all of us and reveling in the carnage as they literally plundered, raped, and pillaged the world? Well they could've executed them all for the war crimes everyone knows they committed, but they opted for imprisoning them. It was prison for the crimes they committed. That was a generation ago, however and the average orc grunt in the current conflict hasn't committed any war crimes, so far anyways.
    I'm pretty sure he was talking about how they were treated in those camps and how they are still treated as prisoners today. Humans hate orcs and that hatred boils over when they suddenly get free reign to kick and torture defenseless ones.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  10. #70
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Why do people cite this and disregard the backstory behind it? What to do with thousands of demon-empowered aliens that stormed into our quiet little planet with the intention of destroying all of us and reveling in the carnage as they literally plundered, raped, and pillaged the world? Well they could've executed them all for the war crimes everyone knows they committed, but they opted for imprisoning them. It was prison for the crimes they committed. That was a generation ago, however and the average orc grunt in the current conflict hasn't committed any war crimes, so far anyways.
    The next generation of Orcs also inflicted great suffering upon the humans it doesn't matter that the average Orc did not commit warcrimes ,they still killed friends and family so there is bound to be hatred among the humans, they will just hate the orcs just as the common human folk is scared of the Draenei.

    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    I'm pretty sure he was talking about how they were treated in those camps and how they are still treated as prisoners today. Humans hate orcs and that hatred boils over when they suddenly get free reign to kick and torture defenseless ones.
    Spot on
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The next generation of Orcs also inflicted great suffering upon the humans it doesn't matter that the average Orc did not commit warcrimes ,they still killed friends and family so there is bound to be hatred among the humans, they will just hate the orcs just as the common human folk is scared of the Draenei.
    I keep reading you as seeing this as endlessly one sided. yes, there will be humans who carry a hatred for the Orcs, but that doesn't mean it will be driving the decision making of those whom have the power to call the shots, like Varian. And what of the Night Elves? The people who bear the brunt of Orcish hatred and aggression? The Orcs feel as though they will "never be left alone by the humans" but they never curb their belligerent aggression. They attack allies of the humans, cheer when their corpses are butchered and desecrated, and think somehow this shouldn't raise the ire of SW and the Alliance? The hatred was a vice stirred by the Orcs, not the other way around. And its perpetuated because throughout it all, the Orcs don't seem to have ever changed. The penance in Durotar was Thrall's doing, their plan to steal the bounty of Ashenvale from the Night Elves, and eject them all to Eastern Kingdoms if they don't slaughter them outright is their hatred and violence. They can claim how they are constant prisoners, but their actions are of an unrepentant criminal; so long as they engage in and accept this criminal behaviour, they belong in prison.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    I keep reading you as seeing this as endlessly one sided. yes, there will be humans who carry a hatred for the Orcs, but that doesn't mean it will be driving the decision making of those whom have the power to call the shots, like Varian. And what of the Night Elves? The people who bear the brunt of Orcish hatred and aggression? The Orcs feel as though they will "never be left alone by the humans" but they never curb their belligerent aggression. They attack allies of the humans, cheer when their corpses are butchered and desecrated, and think somehow this shouldn't raise the ire of SW and the Alliance? The hatred was a vice stirred by the Orcs, not the other way around. And its perpetuated because throughout it all, the Orcs don't seem to have ever changed. The penance in Durotar was Thrall's doing, their plan to steal the bounty of Ashenvale from the Night Elves, and eject them all to Eastern Kingdoms if they don't slaughter them outright is their hatred and violence. They can claim how they are constant prisoners, but their actions are of an unrepentant criminal; so long as they engage in and accept this criminal behaviour, they belong in prison.
    It doesn't matter whose fault it is. It doesn't matter who started it. No amount of finger pointing will change the fact that putting a bunch of humans to watch over the orcs will lead to mistreatment that will only continue the cycle of hatred. The unarmed orc getting beat into a cripple and his friends forced to watch are not going to care if the humans think they deserve it. They will not care that this soldier and his buddies laughing it up while kicking the piss out of his friend aren't Varian.
    These things will happen, they happen every time and in the end the orcs will rebel again leading to more deaths and more hate. Humans will never be tolerated as overseers.
    Last edited by leaks; 2012-11-03 at 07:13 PM.
    "Terror, darkness, power? The Forsaken crave not these things; the Forsaken ARE these things."

  13. #73
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    I keep reading you as seeing this as endlessly one sided. yes, there will be humans who carry a hatred for the Orcs, but that doesn't mean it will be driving the decision making of those whom have the power to call the shots, like Varian. And what of the Night Elves? The people who bear the brunt of Orcish hatred and aggression? The Orcs feel as though they will "never be left alone by the humans" but they never curb their belligerent aggression. They attack allies of the humans, cheer when their corpses are butchered and desecrated, and think somehow this shouldn't raise the ire of SW and the Alliance? The hatred was a vice stirred by the Orcs, not the other way around. And its perpetuated because throughout it all, the Orcs don't seem to have ever changed. The penance in Durotar was Thrall's doing, their plan to steal the bounty of Ashenvale from the Night Elves, and eject them all to Eastern Kingdoms if they don't slaughter them outright is their hatred and violence. They can claim how they are constant prisoners, but their actions are of an unrepentant criminal; so long as they engage in and accept this criminal behaviour, they belong in prison.
    One sided? It would be the same if orcs were to oversee human prisoners, they hate each others guts, justified or not it doesn't matter and that is what makes hatred so dangerous it tends to instigate an almost never ending cycle of violence suffering and death.

    Night elves wouldn't act much different after what the orcs put ashenvale through, some of them even turned against their own people because of their hatred.

    Orcs need to be watched and kept in check without them realizing it, otherwise the cycle of hatred will always continue.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-11-03 at 07:26 PM.
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  14. #74
    Considering what Vol'jin is planning in 5.1, there's really no doubt that he will be there to kick out/kill Garrosh. And I really doubt that the other 5 races of the Horde are just going to 'allow' the Alliance to come in and make any decisions about anything Horde-related, other than where to mount Garrosh's skull.

  15. #75
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penguintamer View Post
    Considering what Vol'jin is planning in 5.1, there's really no doubt that he will be there to kick out/kill Garrosh. And I really doubt that the other 5 races of the Horde are just going to 'allow' the Alliance to come in and make any decisions about anything Horde-related, other than where to mount Garrosh's skull.
    Depends if the Alliance does not demand too unreasonable things from them, they might comply. This war hardly brings them anything and the driving force are the orcs.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  16. #76
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    I just see this whole punishment and reparations deal as a another flaw of the whole Alliance vs Horde story arc.

    One side through one way or another has lost more because of this story arc, and because of that people want some sort of repayment when every thing's done and dusted. It is also natural in War for such repayments to occur, but because of game design there's a fat chance we will see a truly reasonable outcome in this.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 07:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Penguintamer View Post
    Considering what Vol'jin is planning in 5.1, there's really no doubt that he will be there to kick out/kill Garrosh. And I really doubt that the other 5 races of the Horde are just going to 'allow' the Alliance to come in and make any decisions about anything Horde-related, other than where to mount Garrosh's skull.
    The problem is that the Alliance have been the victims in this conflict. That can't just forgotten about at the end.

  17. #77
    so does Audiun die?
    Paladins are Cool Now?
    What happen to Kalgan?

  18. #78
    The best way for this to end would be for Varian to defeat garrosh mak'gora style in front of the rest of the orcs. Instead of killing him they take garrosh back to stormwind as an alliance prisoner, the ultimate humiliation for an Orc.

  19. #79
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighthonor View Post
    so does Audiun die?
    No he lives, but he is beaten quite badly.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  20. #80
    In the end it'll be just some adventures taking down Garrosh with the help of neutral Thrall.

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