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  1. #1
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
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    GC: "Rogues are fine, L2P"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Rogues – We think that Rogue damage in PvP is appropriate—the damage that some other classes are dealing is too high, and we want to adjust those cases before we do any tinkering elsewhere. We still like the Rogue suite of tools and abilities, but we feel like some of these mechanics might have been eclipsed by newer, shinier versions. We are looking at improving Rogue mobility and control in conservative ways.
    Hello GC,

    I know that you do read these forums from time to time. Perhaps you remember my retired Horde Rogue, Ypologos. I am back to my original Vanilla Alliance Rogue from 2006 now.

    Anyway GC, I think that your most recent watercooler statement regarding Rogues is FULL OF FLEAS.

    This is why:

    ========================================================================================== =======================
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/3v3

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/3v3

    -----
    QUOTE

    Edit, discoepfeand has gone through the effort of adding up all the classes in the top 50 teams of every BG, results below:
    Quote Originally Posted by discoepfeand
    I did a quick survey of all battlegroups using the html source of the first page of each BG (so top 50 teams of each) and compiling the info. Posted the aggregate results here:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...65531?page=1#0

    19.93% - Warrior - 353
    16.32% - Hunter - 289
    13.61% - Paladin - 241
    12.37% - Druid - 219
    11.58% - Shaman - 205
    9.09% - Mage - 161
    8.13% - Priest - 144
    3.39% - Death Knight - 60
    3.39% - Warlock - 60
    1.36% - Rogue - 24
    0.85% - Monk - 15


    -----

    Edit 2, ArenaJunkies posted the most popular comps on their facebook, list below:

    Top 10 3v3 Arena Comps (As of 24/10):

    Warrior Hunter Paladin - KFC
    Warrior Hunter Druid - KFC with Druid
    Warrior DK Paladin - TSG
    Priest Mage Druid - Godcomp
    Warrior Druid Paladin - Kittycleave / Bleedcleave
    Warrior Hunter Shaman - KFC with Shaman
    Warrior Mage Druid - WMD
    Warrior DK Druid - TreeSG
    Warrior Mage Paladin - WMP
    Warrior Priest Paladin - ?

    (NO ROGUES)

    -----

    Edit 3, disco has checked again and given us a newer list on the most played classes in the top 50 of each BG.

    20.19% - Warrior - 358 -- up from 353 (8)
    15.62% - Hunter - 277 -- down from 289 (12)
    13.42% - Paladin - 238 -- down from 241 (3)
    12.46% - Shaman - 221 -- up from 205 (16)
    11.79% - Druid - 209 -- down from 219 (10)
    9.25% - Priest - 164 -- up from 144 (20)
    9.08% - Mage - 161 -- n/a
    3.27% - Warlock - 58 -- down from 60 (2)
    2.93% - Death Knight - 52 -- down from 60 (8)
    1.02% - Rogue - 18 -- down from 24 (6)
    0.96% - Monk - 17 -- up from 15 (2)

    ========================================================================================== ======================

    FYI GC:

    1. Subletly is less effective than Assa in PvP atm.
    2. Subletly is constantly energy starved.
    3. Sub's damage even with SnD energy regen up and Sanguinary Veins +16% buff is, quite graciously, PITIFUL.

    Nerfing Hunt0rz and Warriors won't fix Rogues being at the bottom of the barrel in PvP representation. Maybe it's time you wake up and smell the coffee.

    I am NOT asking for much. I just want to be able to solo kill a Warrior with 1/3 health left when I have full health and energy and all buffs up.

    I rest my case.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

    My Rig

  2. #2
    I've consistently done 1/4 or 1/5 of the damage my Feral partner musters in Arena. "Damage appropriate" my ass.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    I've consistently done 1/4 or 1/5 of the damage my Feral partner musters in Arena. "Damage appropriate" my ass.
    I think he meant that our damage on target is ok, but we need to be on target more?

    But we need more than "modest mobility and control buffs"


    Kidney should hit for a fraction of evis/envenom- at MIN 50%.
    Hunters should not be better at stealth than rogues.
    Rogues need a baseline gap closer. Gap closers are a fundamental part of a melee class, pretending that "different classes are different" doesn't change this. if you designed a melee class and didn't include "gap closer", you fucked up.
    Rogues should have better control than other classes, or better burst, or better sustained, or better mobility, or better cooldowns. Or better... anything?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I think he meant that our damage on target is ok, but we need to be on target more?

    But we need more than "modest mobility and control buffs"


    Kidney should hit for a fraction of evis/envenom- at MIN 50%.
    Hunters should not be better at stealth than rogues.
    Rogues need a baseline gap closer. Gap closers are a fundamental part of a melee class, pretending that "different classes are different" doesn't change this. if you designed a melee class and didn't include "gap closer", you fucked up.
    Rogues should have better control than other classes, or better burst, or better sustained, or better mobility, or better cooldowns. Or better... anything?
    Even if that was what he meant, our damage on target is not "OK" due to the extended amount of time it takes for that damage to unfold. We need better rotational damage, not increased target uptime(we also need more target uptime, but you catch my drift). The only way for our current damage distribution model to work in PvP, is to somehow reintroduce "stun-locking" - exclusively for rogues, so we can actually actually stack 5 CP's, Envenom, and let them sit through the Envenom buff, etc... That would have to become our "poke"...

    Kidney can't replicate the utility or the purpose Envenom or Eviscerate fulfill. Envenom deals nature damage and grants the Envenom buff, which makes it hard to pin-point how much damage Kidney would actually have to do, and Eviscerate shouldn't have to be substituted with something else. No, Kidney is a stun. It's nothing else, nor does it need to be. However, it needs to be a stun... Not a finisher! Just an ordinary stun. If that would call for a slight increase in its cooldown, then I'd welcome it, but it can't cost combo points with the current damage distribution model.

    I wholeheartedly agree on the gap-closer part.

  5. #5
    I definitely agree that our damage isn't what they are making it out to be. Saying they are looking for "conservative ways" to improve our mobility and control is what they plan on changing is a shotty idea at best. Toning down the FOTM classes won't help our damage. They will still be pressing buttons to chunk away health while we slowly chip away at it with auto attacks. In order for the damage to be somewhat equal Rogues need ~100% uptime on their target, and conservative changes won't do that. We'll be looking at a few extra seconds of not hitting our buttons because we have no energy. Rupture's damage needs to be increased dramatically, like 200% if they are going to play that card.

    They know Rogues are complete shit in PvP, and they don't know what to do to fix it. Other than reverting all their changes they made.

    I think it is hilarious they don't even mention the talent tree. Easily the worst collection of crap in the game they are huge liability and setback for the class. Yet, they finally admitted Rogue abilities are less shiny than everyone else. Did it ever occur to you to upgrade them through the talent trees? There are a handful of choices in the tree that could be replaced by an Improved Cheap Shot or being able to use Garrote out of Stealth. Now I know we won't see any talent changes until the next expansion, so we'll just have to endure the entire expansion. Rogues are weak mainly because of their talent choices. Even making Shadowstep alone baseline would have fixed quite a bit of issues. Why does it seem like they put more effort in every other talent tree? That's a rhetorical question because we all know they did.

    I don't think they care Rogues aren't relevant classes in PvP right now. They are more interested in making Monks a more popular class. Rogues will definitely be the worst class in PvP for the entirety MoP if they continue to conservatively bandage the class. Rogues need one or two dramatic changes.
    "Knock the world right off it's feet, and straight onto it's head."

    http://http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/tichondrius/Elargee/simple

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    Nerfing Hunt0rz and Warriors won't fix Rogues being at the bottom of the barrel in PvP representation. Maybe it's time you wake up and smell the coffee.
    The only reason Hunters are up there is due to BM, how's it taste being second to bottom, when Hunters have been second or dead last every single season pretty much? you'll see Hunters plummet upon 5.1's release.

  7. #7
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Remember last season when Rogues had 20% arena rep, when you had a 2/3 chance of fighting a rogue team above 2.2k, when they were pretty much invincible 1v1, and when warriors had below 3% rep. You know pretty much all those figures the OP posts but with rogues at the top and warriors on the bottom. Where was the OP then? Was he calling for Rogue nerfs, was he calling for warrior buffs, or was he saying L2P and acting superior.

    What goes around comes around, and here is hoping Blizzard does for Rogues exactly what it did for Warriors. See you next expansion.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
    When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.

  8. #8
    You will get small buffs while the OP classes will get nerfs, that is the correct decision.

    I remeber after the first season with DK Blizzard decided to buff warriors while nerfing DK.

    Warriors turned into gods because the first season they where overshadowed (GC calls it eclipsed ) by certain classes who in aftermath got nerfed while they themselves got buffed.

    Don't compare yourself to warriors and hunters who are getting nerfed, part of the problem will fix itself the moment warrior, hunters and mages lose their burst/control.

  9. #9
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post

    I wholeheartedly agree on the gap-closer part.
    Shadow Step Baseline PREASE! Also finishing moves kind of suck. I'm all for the kidney shot stun for a good cc chain, and recuperate is nice (any gimped version of a warrior talent/ability is awesome since Warriors are apparently God), but ffs most classes raise their eyebrows at me when I use Rupture and proceed to peel off my face with a spoon as their passive healing just nulls all the damage done by dots. Evis/Envenom shouldn't even count as "Finishers" when they finish people off about as well as my Warrior does as prot spamming devastate while getting a manicure. I would much rather have more consistently higher damage on cp generators and finishers than having strong burst cds like Vendetta/ShadowDance/LOLKillingspree. The shadow blades thing was a great idea in pve, but if flops HARD in pvp where nobody in their right mind sticks around for your to hit them repeatedly in the back for more than a second.

    As for arena/rbg representation, the numbers for rogues was actually infinitely higher than I expected it to be (I expected zero), as I have not been able to even JOIN a team arena/bg or otherwise because quite frankly, people just tell rogues to piss the hell off. My warrior on the other hand was invited to join a rbg group when I had 0 resil/power just because I was prot and knew how to run a flag from back in Vanilla...

    This must be all the Karma coming back for us getting Daggers at the end of Cata. Mages are suffering the same... wait a minute no they aren't.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    I've consistently done 1/4 or 1/5 of the damage my Feral partner musters in Arena. "Damage appropriate" my ass.
    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...ination_Rogue/ VS http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...ral-Cat_Druid/

    no, rogues do not need "rotational damage increase". It's already higher than feral...

    ...than warrior http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play.../Fury_Warrior/

    ...and paladin http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...ution_Paladin/

    among the melee classes. you do not need raw damage buffs.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post

    This must be all the Karma coming back for us getting Daggers at the end of Cata. Mages are suffering the same... wait a minute no they aren't.
    No it was bad design by Blizzard making our damage passive, gutting the specs, and then giving them a terrible talent tree. AND making each decision a true no win scenario. No matter what talent you pick you're missing out on something more important than the choice you made. Doesn't matter which choice you pick because there are two other choices that are clearly better... well maybe except 1 tier.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-31 at 08:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohforfsake View Post
    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...ination_Rogue/ VS http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...ral-Cat_Druid/

    no, rogues do not need "rotational damage increase". It's already higher than feral...

    ...than warrior http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play.../Fury_Warrior/

    ...and paladin http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...ution_Paladin/

    among the melee classes. you do not need raw damage buffs.
    This was a PvP minded thread. It was also labeled "Dev Watercooler PvP" on the website. Nobody is saying our damage sucks. A VERY COMMON MISCONCEPTION.
    "Knock the world right off it's feet, and straight onto it's head."

    http://http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/tichondrius/Elargee/simple

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Hexotic's Avatar
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    In my opinion, rogues had their fun in arenas last season, its warriors turn Im going to be hated for this post.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexotic View Post
    In my opinion, rogues had their fun in arenas last season, its warriors turn Im going to be hated for this post.
    They had one season of OPness. Which can all be attributed to an overpowered PvE trinket and orange daggers that were too easy to get. Take away those two things and their damage was on par with most other classes, and yes they were balanced. They just weren't balanced around those two things I mentioned.
    "Knock the world right off it's feet, and straight onto it's head."

    http://http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/tichondrius/Elargee/simple

  14. #14
    I dont play a rogue, I play a lock, and rogues in pvp are LOL. I remember when they were something many people hated because they would just rip you up and keep you stunlocked. I am sure those were good times for you rogues. I find it very sad that the old stun kings are put on back burner to a brute style class that can stun, silence and in general control thier victims better than any rogue has in the past, and that class would be a warrior. A rogue is supposed to be an assasin, not a toon you trinket out of and kill real quick.

    Rogues IMO are hard to play, and awesome when someone plays them well. I just posted here to say "Give the stuns back to the rogues"!!!

  15. #15
    I fail to understand why people even bother with these posts. So, your not as good as you were last season. Arena has always been the flavor of the patch, and you should be used to it by now. Remember the mage/lock/shaman? Get over it and relax, your time in the sun will come again.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Tzalix's Avatar
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    Is it really that hard to understand?

    He's saying that Rogues are doing enough damage, the other classes are doing too much damage. There's no mention of "L2P" anywhere.
    I really like christmas. It's sentimental, I know... But I just really like it.

  17. #17
    Brewmaster Shon237's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Remember last season when Rogues had 20% arena rep, when you had a 2/3 chance of fighting a rogue team above 2.2k, when they were pretty much invincible 1v1, and when warriors had below 3% rep. You know pretty much all those figures the OP posts but with rogues at the top and warriors on the bottom. Where was the OP then? Was he calling for Rogue nerfs, was he calling for warrior buffs, or was he saying L2P and acting superior.

    What goes around comes around, and here is hoping Blizzard does for Rogues exactly what it did for Warriors. See you next expansion.
    Pretty much my take on this issue also. My rogue is my alt so of course I really don't have a fight in this and the only thing I hate is having to choose between shadowstep and/or Preparation. As far as damage yeah some classes are OP, flavor of the month while some suck right now. Most have already stated, that I saw no Rogue tears in Cata.

  18. #18
    Pit Lord
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    this is the 1st season in history of wow when rogues are weak, man the fck up and stop whining

  19. #19
    are you retarded? he kinda say rogues are fine, but other classes are op, so when they nerf them rogues will be ok
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  20. #20
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    You will never get to a point where the represenation is equally devided between all the classes. Rogues have been high/top on those lists allmost every season so using that as an argument is NOT valid.

    Rogues damage is balanced these days, people playing the class just need to realize that the days as upper op pvp hero is gone.

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