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  1. #1

    shaman patch notes

    Never seem to see any, did they just get out class that perfect in beta?

  2. #2
    I guess it means that they don't feel that Shaman need adjustments as much as other classes. Enhance is on the upper to high side of the DPS scale, and Elemental is at the lower end of the scale, but is almost perfectly balanced with Boomkins and Shadow Priests, which are the closest comparisons as hybrid casters. Resto is at the high to middle range of the scale for healing throughput.

    The one thing that annoys me is that the Holy Paladin 4 piece was buffed by 200%, while the Resto Shaman 4 piece, that was far weaker than the Paladin one to begin with hasn't been touched.

  3. #3
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    We've had a few hotfixes. Otherwise, the class is basically fine as it is. The one area I think needs some improvement is Elemental, but it's difficult to make changes there which won't require overhauling the already-balanced PvE.

    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee
    The one thing that annoys me is that the Holy Paladin 4 piece was buffed by 200%, while the Resto Shaman 4 piece, that was far weaker than the Paladin one to begin with hasn't been touched.


    The paladin 4-piece just reduces the cooldown on one spell by 2 seconds. The Shaman 4-piece improves the uptime on a significant buff to our healing, giving us less need to roll Riptides to maintain it. If you're glyphing Riptide, it's likely useless, but otherwise, it's at least as good if not better than the Paladin 4-piece.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post


    The paladin 4-piece just reduces the cooldown on one spell by 2 seconds. The Shaman 4-piece improves the uptime on a significant buff to our healing, giving us less need to roll Riptides to maintain it. If you're glyphing Riptide, it's likely useless, but otherwise, it's at least as good if not better than the Paladin 4-piece. [/FONT]
    Holy Shock is more than one spell; it also accounts for about 75% of paladin Holy Power generation. The set bonus lets you cast it 50% more often. That works out to about 38% more HP generation, which means about 38% more Light of Dawns (by far their highest throughput spell, as well as a significant increase in regen/mana longevity, because it's free. Since 4.0, the value of Holy Shock has always been far more about the HP generation than the actual heal itself.

    10 man healing might be a lot different in this respect, but in 25 man, I almost always have at least 85-90% uptime on Tidal Waves (and almost never glyph RT), and often close to 100%. I also don't see "less need to cast Riptides" as much of a benefit. I find that Riptide as a standalone spell is generally worth casting on CD, so that you can have one rolling on each tank (for the healing buffer and to keep rolling the HP buff), and another one on a good target to Chain Heal off of. Unless you need to cast 3 straight HW/GHW/HS, Tidal Waves should always be up. Even on primarily tank healing, the amount of GCDs/cast time that are spent casting ULE/Healing Rain/Healing Stream Totem, etc means that it's rare to need 3 straight direct heals. Even if you find yourself needing one with TW down, you still have Nature's Swiftness + Greater Healing Wave once a minute.

    I see the set bonus as only really adding about 10% Tidal Waves uptime, which is very mediocre compared with a 38% increase to Holy Power generation.

  5. #5
    It bothers me a little to never see shaman changes. Not that I want changes for the sake of changes, but there's still a few things that I feel needs to be addressed.

    Such as Ele's dependence on RNG is way too high atm... Even though I'm not playing any better or worse between pulls, my DPS varies by 30k either way based on RNG.

    Enhance AoE is still very cumbersome, being based of a 10sec CD ability that is also our highest damage single target rotational ability.

    Resto's CD's are probably too stronk atm... and we still have too many "no brainer" talent choices IMO.

    But hey, at least we're not getting nerfed right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zillionhz View Post
    By fiber be purged

  6. #6
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalingo View Post
    Such as Ele's dependence on RNG is way too high atm... Even though I'm not playing any better or worse between pulls, my DPS varies by 30k either way based on RNG.
    Elemental's RNG variance is pretty middle-of-the-road, statistically speaking. If you're seeing 30k swings, you're doing something different between pulls. Even on sims, with thousands of attempts, and BiS gear, the max-min variance was something like 22k, from the highest sim to the lowest. It's averaging about 4.8%, and most classes are between 3-5.5%.

  7. #7
    I'd tend to agree that Resto cooldowns are too strong, but our overall output is balanced right around where it should be (within a 5% variance of all specs but Mistweavers that are getting nerfed and Disc that is getting buffed). I would rather see Healing Tide and Ascendance toned down, with the power of our regular healing spells buffed to compensate. Shaman end of fight output tends to be variable on how often and how effectively you can use those two cooldowns, with both accounting for upwards of 30% of our output often. If another healer uses a cooldown at the same time or the damage Healing Tide could heal gets healed faster than the duration of the totem, our output goes down a lot. If we line it up with a time when the raid is really low and we get maximum value out of our mastery, our output goes way up.

    As far as no brainer talents, the L60, L75 and L90 talents all are kind of obvious choices in most situations (and the L30 and L45 talents don't really matter in most cases). Ancestral Swiftness and Healing Tide Totem are probably taken by 90%+ of raiding resto shaman. The L90 talents are a kind of obvious choice too - Primal Elementalist if you want to primarily focus on AoE healing or Unleashed Fury for single target. Both of them are pretty marginal as well. I'd like to see them find a way to make Echo of the Elements, Conductivity and Elemental Blast more viable options for Resto.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Elemental's RNG variance is pretty middle-of-the-road, statistically speaking. If you're seeing 30k swings, you're doing something different between pulls. Even on sims, with thousands of attempts, and BiS gear, the max-min variance was something like 22k, from the highest sim to the lowest. It's averaging about 4.8%, and most classes are between 3-5.5%.
    There are other variables as well, such as length of fight, phases reached etc. But in general, my performance doesn't change much, however my DPS swing between pulls is frustrating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zillionhz View Post
    By fiber be purged

  9. #9
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalingo View Post
    There are other variables as well, such as length of fight, phases reached etc. But in general, my performance doesn't change much, however my DPS swing between pulls is frustrating.
    The point is, it's nothing everyone else isn't dealing with, too. Our RNG is pretty average.

  10. #10
    The Patient
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    Blizz should fix elemental scaling and obvious bugs like Lakestrider and Totemic Encirclement glyphs.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    We've had a few hotfixes. Otherwise, the class is basically fine as it is.
    I'm sorry man, how come the class is basicly fine as it is at the moment?

    I'm not sure if they are all already hotfix'd yet (which I highly doubt):
    • Totemic Restoration is still bugged since beta, and may not work at all.
    • Lakestrider glyph bug.
    • Unleashed Fury - Windfury doesn't proc Static Shocks during Ascendance. This is a serious DPS-loss.
    • Personal opinion: Capacitor Totem is too difficult to use, requires QoL changes.
    • Personal opinion: Ele is way too RNG based. We need more reliable burst. (Hint: Take Lava Burst out of mastery, make it similar to Chaos Bolt so critical chance improves its damage, adjust numbers)
    • Not sure: Astral Shift should work while CC'd, stunned or silenced, etc.
    • Nature's Guardian is not interesting enough even for PvP or PvE (more health, more heals, less mana, healers hate you, damage reduction > health increase).
    • Flame shock isn't spreading intendedly and as easily as it should be, on Lava Lash.
    • Enh goes oom even not hardcasting, maintaining normal rotation and low movement fights.
    • Enh AoE is too complex compared to any other class / spec. Average to long time AoE'ing results going oom.
    • PvP:
      • Ele, compared to pure casters such as mages and warlocks:
        • Have way less cooldowns or ways to avoid/counter death or damage. (-)
        • Better self healing than mages, definantly worse self healing than warlocks. (-, we should be superior)
        • Less ways to control opponents. (-, we should be inferior but it should be improved to be on-par with other hybrid casters)
        • Less damage. (we should be inferior)
        • More utility. (we should be superior)
      • Ele, compared to hybrid casters such as shadow priests and boomkins:
        • We lack passive damage reduction. (%15)
        • Healing is about the same, but offspec healing will hurt us the most since we have the worst survivability cooldowns, depending more on hard cast heals.
        • Less control, I'd still like to see more reliable control. (Hint: Reviving rockbiter as chance on hit knockdown, remember Zul'Aman trash)
        • Same-ish damage, however too dependent on RNG and procs.
        • Same-ish utility with totems, which should be improved even more. (Hint: New, cool, badass and useful totems!)
      • Enh, compared to other melee:
        • Terrible mobility with lack of none-talented way to remove snare/roots, combined with no gap closers. Ghost Wolf is still dispelable, crippling our mobility. Spirit Walk and Unleashed Fury sprints are useless without removing snares since there are too many snares and roots in PvP right now. Windwalk totem is meaningless since Frozen Power is pretty much mandatory with the lack of a gap-closer. Melee has to keep its target in place to reach it.
        • Because of mobility problems, mana.
        • Almost no tools to lock down a single target as other melee, compared to a feral - warrior - monk - rogue. Obviously enough we can never be as close to rogues on this topic since this is their speciality but we are obviously lagging behind everybody else.
        • Too strong against casters (although not as strong as used to be), too weak against melee.
        • Searing Totem is an outdated mechanic which doesn't fit Blizzard's logic to totems today and definantly a hold-back in PvP.
        • Maelstrom Weapon survivability / utility works perfectly in theory, but it fails in real play because of the number of controls (stuns, even silences and many more), mobility issues and avoidance cooldowns (dodge, miss cooldowns mainly)

    That was just a list of the first stuff popped in my head. It's not complete, even some of them includes personal opinions which can be proved otherwise or you would just simply disagree. Although it can't %100 be false or personal opinions, there are still lots of things to fix / change / improve with the class. I don't think I heard a noticible change/improvement to the class for a while, not even a new glyph to be excited about. Also, I don't play resto but I'm almost sure that no class or spec will be %100 alright ever, there'll be always room to improve or stuff to fix.

    My point is, I highly disagree we are doing alright and it's fine that there's no mention of our class in the next big 5.1 patch.
    If Blizzard showed at most the half attention they showed to Warlock class, we would be discussing "aight, we have no bugs or terribly important issues now, we are almost on-par with others, the class doesn't hold me back and rewards me as much as my skill-level, now let's talk about how cooler it can get!".

    I respectfully disagree, sir.
    Last edited by Mithgroth; 2012-11-04 at 12:57 AM. Reason: Maelstrom Weapon issue added.

  12. #12
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    I'm sorry man, how come the class is basicly fine as it is at the moment?

    I'm not sure if they are all already hotfix'd yet (which I highly doubt):
    1. Totemic Restoration is still bugged since beta, and may not work at all.
    2. Lakestrider glyph bug.
    3. Unleashed Fury - Windfury doesn't proc Static Shocks during Ascendance. This is a serious DPS-loss.
    4. Personal opinion: Capacitor Totem is too difficult to use, requires QoL changes.
    5. Personal opinion: Ele is way too RNG based. We need more reliable burst. (Hint: Take Lava Burst out of mastery, make it similar to Chaos Bolt so critical chance improves its damage, adjust numbers)
    6. Not sure: Astral Shift should work while CC'd, stunned or silenced, etc.
    7. Nature's Guardian is not interesting enough even for PvP or PvE (more health, more heals, less mana, healers hate you, damage reduction > health increase).
    8. Flame shock isn't spreading intendedly and as easily as it should be, on Lava Lash.
    9. Enh goes oom even not hardcasting, maintaining normal rotation and low movement fights.
    10. Enh AoE is too complex compared to any other class / spec. Average to long time AoE'ing results going oom.

    I changed the bullets to make it easier to respond point-for-point.

    1. Totemic Restoration is not bugged that I am aware of. In fact, I just tested it, both with recalling totems with Totemic Recall, and having a Grounding Totem absorb a spell, and both effects reduced the duration by close to 50%, exactly as expected.

    2. This is a very new issue that only sprang up in the last hotfix, and it's a bug. It should get fixed, and it's pretty darn minor; you can just unglyph Ghost Wolf and cast Water Walking when you need it.

    3. Unleash Fury: Windfury lets your autoattacks trigger Static Shock. Windfury attacks are not autoattacks. This is not a bug, it's working as intended, and as the ability is written. Nor is Enhancement DPS suffering, even.

    4-6. These are personal opinions. However, Elemental is no more RNG based than any other class. That's simple statistical fact. We DO need some tweaks for PvP, but the spec is fine in PvE; RNG is not a factor there. If your performance is inconsistent between attempts outside of about the normal +/- 5% that everyone sees, the issue is likely that your performance is inconsistent, not that the spec is too RNG.

    7. On the contrary, it's a reasonably strong option for PvE particularly, and the reactive nature means it has its place for PvP as well. Are there cases where you wouldn't want it? Sure. You're expected to change talents for those. You aren't intended to be able to pick 6 talents and never change them, you should be changing 1-2 or more every raid boss. Potentially even for arena matches depending on your opposition.

    8. Again, I haven't heard anything mechanical related to this, just people who don't like how it feels. If you've got proof (and forum threads of QQ aren't "proof"), I'd like to see it.

    9. I haven't heard this from anyone, and it's certainly not true in the sims, even at lower gear levels. The T14N profile doesn't have Enhancement ever dipping below 95% mana, for instance.

    10. You aren't intended to necessarily be able to sustain AoE indefinitely. Nor is Enhancement AoE that complicated. It doesn't have to be a one-button wonder.

    In short, these are either personal taste, or just straight-up wrong. The only exception is #2, the Lakestrider glyph, and that's really not a game-breaker. Plus, it's a bug, it's not intended to do that.


    • PvP:
      • Ele, compared to pure casters such as mages and warlocks:
      • Ele, compared to hybrid casters such as shadow priests and boomkins:
    I don't want to break these down too much, since I've been pretty open about thinking Elemental needs some love in PvP. However, the method of your comparison here isn't very fair; you're looking for ways we're inferior to pure casters, and then ways we're inferior to hybrids. You're not considering advantages at all. This lets you play one against the other as it suits your intended conclusion, regardless of the facts. It's kind of like saying "Wayne isn't better at baseball than professional ball players. He's also not better at basketball than NBA players. He needs to be a better athlete." If the Wayne in question is Wayne Gretzky, though, your conclusion is pretty much wrong, since he was a record-breaking hockey player who still holds a lot of the league records, even years after retirement. It's an issue with the style of argument; even though you may be right in the particulars of your premises, the logic is faulty and the conclusion does not follow.

    You need to establish that Elemental is lacking against everyone, in an overall sense. Which, again, I agree is true in PvP. Perhaps not as much as some people, but it could use some love.

    Specifically; we SHOULD be weaker than other classes in some areas. Most areas, in fact. As well as having a few things we do better than anyone, which make up the difference. If there's 10 facets to PvP, everyone should be average at 5, suck at 3, and excel at 2. If that's true across the board, the game is balanced. I agree that it's not for Elemental, but focusing on the "suck at 3" angle doesn't prove anything, since EVERYONE has weak points.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    About RNG & ele shamans, Bink shines his light on it in this blog post.

  14. #14
    Here are some concerns with some of our talents in particular.

    -Stone Bulwark Totem - it is not really viable for raiding, especially for DPS specs, because it costs a GCD plus mana to use (and Astral Shift does not), and for it to be superior to Astral Shift in terms of damage reduction, you need to use it pretty close to every 60 seconds, which is an enormous DPS loss. It also causes problems with not being able to use with Earth Elemental totem active (most relevant when specced into Primal Elementalist). These two should really be unlinked.

    -Totemic Restoration - To be worthy of a talent, it really needs to restore 100% of the lost duration of the totems, not 50%. It's almost always going to be a DPS/HPS pulling cooldown totems early if you aren't getting the same duration back, so why talent it?

    -Call of the Elements - This one is tricky, because you can't put Healing Tide/Spirit Link/Fire Elemental/Stormlash totems as resettable, without the talent becoming 100% mandatory. However, there just really isn't a sub 3 minute CD totem that is compelling enough to want to be able to reset. It's only situationally useful on fights where resetting Tremor/Earthbind/Capacitor are a big deal.

    -Echo of the Elements - It's too underwhelming for Resto, and does not proc from enough of our toolkit. Ancestral Swiftness is too much of a no brainer talent for Resto currently. When you compare EoE to a talent like Paladin's Divine Purpose, it just feels lacking. I would like to see it at least be added to more spells, or the proc rate to be increased.

    -Healing Tide Totem - There is too much of a gap between how much it heals for as Resto and how much it heals for as Ele/Enhance. Ancestral Guidance is almost always more healing output for DPS specs if used in any kind of intelligent manner, and doesn't cost a GCD. It probably should be buffed for DPS shaman slightly.

    -Conductivity - Needs to be buffed or reworked to actually be an interesting option. For DPS, the DPS cost of casting Healing Rains is so high, that the talent needs to be an amazing benefit to be used (i.e it needs to be significantly stronger than HTT or AG to warrant the DPS loss). For Resto, it needs to be strong enough to warrant a playstyle change that is a throughput loss and to warrant losing a CD as strong as HTT.

    -Unleashed Fury - I would really like to see the +50% buff from casting ULE on a target go on myself instead of the target of the ULE. Too often, the target gets topped before you can finish the sequence (or I want to use ULE - Healing Rain - be able to still use the +50% portion).

    -Primal Elementalist - They need to fix the bugginess with the Empower/Reinforce buffs, where they break on fights like Elgelon and Gara'jal when you cross realms. I would also love to see an autocast option on those buffs so you can set it to automatically start channeling them every time you use Fire or Earth Ele, instead of having to mash a cast sequence macro.

    -Elemental Blast - It is too weak for Resto right now. The cast time is too long and the buff uptime too short to be worth the HPS loss of casting it. To make it compelling for Resto, they would probably have to increase the duration (for Resto only) to like 20-30 seconds, and make it a Spirit buff automatically.

  15. #15
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    About RNG & ele shamans, Bink shines his light on it in this blog post.
    Just as a side note on that; our RNG during Cata was one of the lowest in the game. The big shift for MoP is that a lot of our damage in that one Ascendance cooldown, and while it's not affected by Critical Strike rating, it IS affected by Mastery in pretty much the same way; a chance for additional damage. If you're focusing JUST on your Ascendance burst, yes, you could easily see big swings in DPS between one attempt and the next, particularly during openings, due to RNG and RNG alone.

    That doesn't mean your boss kill DPS will suffer the same fate, though. RNG being RNG, you'll tend to even out over the rest of the fight. An unlucky streak at the start might leave you lagging a big, but not outside that +/- 5% range I mentioned, on average.

    I'm not saying we don't have a bunch of RNG, I'm just saying it's not THAT much more different than someone else popping their CDs and just not getting crits. Everyone sees this. Ascendance in our opening, with our big spike damage, just makes it really visible if you're watching the meters.

  16. #16
    There are only two changes I'd really like to see for Elemental, 1) Glyph of Flame Shock removed and the duration of Flame Shock increased 2) Some passive damage reduction akin to Shadowform and Moonkin Form. Example, X% damage reduction while Lightning Shield is active

  17. #17
    I love enhancement currently. I top dps in my 10 man all the time. I quite happy there are no changes.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    [/LIST]

    I changed the bullets to make it easier to respond point-for-point.

    1. Totemic Restoration is not bugged that I am aware of. In fact, I just tested it, both with recalling totems with Totemic Recall, and having a Grounding Totem absorb a spell, and both effects reduced the duration by close to 50%, exactly as expected.

    2. This is a very new issue that only sprang up in the last hotfix, and it's a bug. It should get fixed, and it's pretty darn minor; you can just unglyph Ghost Wolf and cast Water Walking when you need it.

    3. Unleash Fury: Windfury lets your autoattacks trigger Static Shock. Windfury attacks are not autoattacks. This is not a bug, it's working as intended, and as the ability is written. Nor is Enhancement DPS suffering, even.

    4-6. These are personal opinions. However, Elemental is no more RNG based than any other class. That's simple statistical fact. We DO need some tweaks for PvP, but the spec is fine in PvE; RNG is not a factor there. If your performance is inconsistent between attempts outside of about the normal +/- 5% that everyone sees, the issue is likely that your performance is inconsistent, not that the spec is too RNG.

    7. On the contrary, it's a reasonably strong option for PvE particularly, and the reactive nature means it has its place for PvP as well. Are there cases where you wouldn't want it? Sure. You're expected to change talents for those. You aren't intended to be able to pick 6 talents and never change them, you should be changing 1-2 or more every raid boss. Potentially even for arena matches depending on your opposition.

    8. Again, I haven't heard anything mechanical related to this, just people who don't like how it feels. If you've got proof (and forum threads of QQ aren't "proof"), I'd like to see it.

    9. I haven't heard this from anyone, and it's certainly not true in the sims, even at lower gear levels. The T14N profile doesn't have Enhancement ever dipping below 95% mana, for instance.

    10. You aren't intended to necessarily be able to sustain AoE indefinitely. Nor is Enhancement AoE that complicated. It doesn't have to be a one-button wonder.

    In short, these are either personal taste, or just straight-up wrong. The only exception is #2, the Lakestrider glyph, and that's really not a game-breaker. Plus, it's a bug, it's not intended to do that.
    I should have made it a numbered list, yeah.

    1. I just spent my 10 minutes and tried it out. Tried it on Tremor, click-demolished them by hand. Two times, cooldown wasn't reduced. Definantly bugged.

    2. I agree it's nothing to be hotfix'd, but we are talking about 5.1 which is a major patch. Plus, taking out the glyph is not related with patch notes because it's not really a solution, it's a workaround. (side-note, Water Walking should be raid-wide buff for QoL, that's a change, some people asked for it when they asked us about QoL changes)

    3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascendance
    Enhancement:
    While in the form of an Air Ascendant, autoattacks and Stormstrike deal pure Nature damage and have a 30-yard range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unleashed Fury
    Windfury Weapon
    For 8 sec, your melee autoattacks can trigger Static Shock.
    During Ascendance, we do autoattacks. Unleashed Fury during Ascendance should proc Static Shock. Bug.

    4. I would like to meet a shaman who loves Capacitor Totem as the way it is now. Blizzard knows many people don't like how it works now, but aight with the idea. I'm not asking for a buff, I'm asking for QoL improvement, which -I think- should be defended by a Shaman community.

    5. Even if it's fine in PvE, doesn't mean it's fine as a simple statistical fact. Our damage is designed around our mastery, which limits Lava Burst. It's over than average burst if the stars align, but if not -usually that's what happens- it's below average. That is called RNG. Elemental's main damager is Lava Burst, it should be more predictable for the sake of PvP although it doesn't effect PvE very much, since fights are more stable and longer.

    6. Your post doesn't answer my point on Astral Shift being usable during CC effects.

    7. Exactly my point, I should be changing my choices. And furthermore, all three options should be close enough, so I will be forced to make a call. Instead of Stone Bulwark (less but longer) or Astral Shift (more but shorter). Nature's Guardian can't compete with two and not interesting enough to force me into a decision between three of them.

    8-9. I'm a bit offended by this if you are referring my post as "forum threads of QQ". It does exist even if you haven't heard of it and I already reported this with proof -as I did with all similar others- to Blizzard.

    10. Not that I feel overwhelmed by the difficulty level of our Enh AoE, I feel stupid when every other class and spec in the game can do as good as me or similar. I do believe you don't need my proof to believe how Enh AoE is complicated compared to any other spec (mind you, not only class but spec), if I'm not being rewarded for this effort, I would feel stupid. From another approach, my AoE doesn't have to be more complex than any other spec to be as good as any other spec. If everyone else does this one-button wonder, what is my fault to have 4-5 different spells on different cooldowns to do the same? I should have an one-button wonder too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In short, these are either personal taste, or just straight-up wrong. The only exception is #2, the Lakestrider glyph, and that's really not a game-breaker. Plus, it's a bug, it's not intended to do that.
    Not all of these are personal taste. So calling them straight-up wrong is just rude.
    If you have read my original post's last paragraph instead of tunneling the list that I've made, you would have understood that there is no excuse to be left-over for so long without changes, improvements or fixes while we do have certain issues. There is no point to defend Blizzard, because it's frustrating when you see all the attention they are giving to other classes. I also have a warlock as an alt, each patch I log I feel thrilled. Shaman received no love for no reason for so long, while the class needs it the most in its history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I don't want to break these down too much, since I've been pretty open about thinking Elemental needs some love in PvP. However, the method of your comparison here isn't very fair; you're looking for ways we're inferior to pure casters, and then ways we're inferior to hybrids. You're not considering advantages at all. This lets you play one against the other as it suits your intended conclusion, regardless of the facts. It's kind of like saying "Wayne isn't better at baseball than professional ball players. He's also not better at basketball than NBA players. He needs to be a better athlete." If the Wayne in question is Wayne Gretzky, though, your conclusion is pretty much wrong, since he was a record-breaking hockey player who still holds a lot of the league records, even years after retirement. It's an issue with the style of argument; even though you may be right in the particulars of your premises, the logic is faulty and the conclusion does not follow.

    You need to establish that Elemental is lacking against everyone, in an overall sense. Which, again, I agree is true in PvP. Perhaps not as much as some people, but it could use some love.
    First things first, if it doesn't fit your logic; it's not rubbish, you can't disproof it by saying "facts" all the time and showing none, and you can't simply criticize it in a mordant, degrading manner. If my style of arguement doesn't fit you or if I'm simply wrong, tell me why I'm wrong. Prove it with solid arguements.

    It is no apples and oranges comparision, it's a comparision between our beloved class and other classes we compete in same roles. We may function differently and we should, however they should be close in terms of filling a role. What I did there is just categorizing shaman with similar other classes and simply doing a pros-cons. There is nothing wrong with that, you can't just take Shaman class individually and isolate it from anything else when it comes to PvP and competing.

    And back to the topic, if you also think Ele PvP could use some love, how come you are aight with Shaman's disappearance for many patch notes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Specifically; we SHOULD be weaker than other classes in some areas. Most areas, in fact. As well as having a few things we do better than anyone, which make up the difference. If there's 10 facets to PvP, everyone should be average at 5, suck at 3, and excel at 2. If that's true across the board, the game is balanced. I agree that it's not for Elemental, but focusing on the "suck at 3" angle doesn't prove anything, since EVERYONE has weak points.
    I completely agree with you here. My point has never been "omg qq boof shaman to teh topz noi" anyway.
    I totally agree we should have weak points, but all of my points are made having a balanced enviroment as much as possible in mind.

  19. #19
    I read somewhere that Windfury attacks are not being converted to nature damage during Ascendance. I think it probably should, to make the damage more consistent in its source.

    Also Enhance AoE is terrible and clunky, and really does need to be reworked, again. Much better than it was, but it takes me 3 GCD's to get it rolling, 4 including magma totem (either dropping it or relocating it if i dropped it earlier). As Ele all I need to do is position magma and start spamming CL for much more reliable cleave.
    WoW PvP; Where DPS are healers, tanks are DPS, and healers are tanks!

    RETH RETH RETH!

  20. #20
    Enhancement doesn't go oom.... in PvE. PvP is a different story.

    As for it's AoE, complex isn't the adequate word. Bothersome would be more like it. Enhancement AoE basicly takes a considerable amount of globals - when compared to other classes - to set up.
    - Magma totem
    - FS
    - Lava Lash
    - Unleash Elements
    - Fire Nova
    - Storm Strike
    - Chain Lightning

    It's bothersome alright, but when there's loads of mobs up, you'll certainly be up there. Thing is there are other classes who can do the same with considerably less buttons.

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