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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    This is why I use the glyph. And brings me to the issue that I'm having with people who keep saying its a bad totem: on the one hand they keep saying that its the worst aoe stun in the game but in the same breath they'll say its reliable with the glyph or TP, or both combined. Yet there are all these calls to increase its health or make it instant. This seems contradictory to me, nevermind that making it instant is counterintuitive since you wouldn't be able to use it with TP. Why should they increase its health or make it instant if its reliable with a 3 sec charge time? If the general opinion, amongst the people who don't like the totem, is that the base charge time is too long then just say that, just say that you want the glyph to be baked into the ability. Maybe if they do that people will stop complaining about it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they won't. I suspect that a lot of people just want an unavoidable cc.
    I completely agree with Protoman on this one
    the CPT glyph makes it so your CPT isn't easily one shot by any decent player and makes your CPT closer to the level of reliability as almost every other instant AOE stun.
    Shaving 2 sec from the charge time makes it that much more easier to pull of and a good deal harder for players to avoid

    Basically the Glyph of CPT is mandatory for CPT to work in PvP
    Un-Glyphed CPT is useless in comparison

    +1 Vote for baking the Glyph into the Totem

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 02:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The other issue to me, with that argument, is that they usually respond with "but I have so many other glyphs I want to use and can't fit that in." Glyphs are all optional. What you are actually saying when you say you "can't fit it in" is that improving on Capacitor Totem is, at best, 4th in your priorities when it comes to glyphs.
    So Glyph of Ghostwolf and Purge are optional in PvP


    If the argument were "everyone always takes Glyph of Capacitor Totem because it's SO useful in PvP we can't do without it", you'd have a stronger case for changing Capacitor Totem accordingly. But nobody's saying that. Their actual argument is that, even to them, it's relatively low on their priority. Or they're glyphing it but somehow don't think they should have to, and sorry, no, that's what glyphs are for; tweaking your gameplay to be how you prefer it. You wanting certain glyphs means the system is working, not that it needs to be changed.
    Does not apply to Glyph of Ghost Wolf which doesnt work in PvP Un-Glyphed
    Does not apply to Glyph of CPT which doesnt work in PvP Un-Glyphed
    Last edited by Chainreactor; 2012-11-10 at 09:43 PM.

  2. #102
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chainreactor View Post
    So Glyph of Ghostwolf and Purge are optional in PvP
    Glyph of Ghost Wolf is pretty strong, but Purge isn't some powerhouse you can't do without, by any means. Maybe for Restoration, but Ele/Enh have a lot of other options that are at least as strong, if not moreso.

    Does not apply to Glyph of Ghost Wolf which doesnt work in PvP Un-Glyphed
    Does not apply to Glyph of CPT which doesnt work in PvP Un-Glyphed
    Neither of these are true. You're confusing "I want the advantage this glyph brings" with "the ability does not work without this glyph". They are NOT the same.

    Equating them is essentially the same thing as a kid saying they'll die if they have to eat their peas. It's just hyperbole. If your issue is that you want the glyph's benefits, then you take the glyph. That's not a reason to demand it get baked into the ability. All you're doing is explaining why it's a useful glyph, not that it SHOULDN'T be a glyph.

  3. #103
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Ultimately, I think what people want is for all the glyphs, whether you play shaman or another class, to have the same level of optionality. People want all the glyphs that they think they can't live without to be baked in and to be left with glyphs like glyph of frost shock. Of course if the devs did that, people would complain that they don't have any compelling glyphs to choose from. But I guess you can't please everyone.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Equating them is essentially the same thing as a kid saying they'll die if they have to eat their peas. It's just hyperbole. If your issue is that you want the glyph's benefits, then you take the glyph. That's not a reason to demand it get baked into the ability. All you're doing is explaining why it's a useful glyph, not that it SHOULDN'T be a glyph.
    Bad comparison. You seem to miss the point where the glyph is completely mandatory. It's not about a choice. It's like saying, for example, in the old talent trees, Feral Spirit was an optional talent. You always had the choice to not spec in it, you know...

  5. #105
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    Ultimately, I think what people want is for all the glyphs, whether you play shaman or another class, to have the same level of optionality. People want all the glyphs that they think they can't live without to be baked in and to be left with glyphs like glyph of frost shock. Of course if the devs did that, people would complain that they don't have any compelling glyphs to choose from. But I guess you can't please everyone.
    People need to have attainable goals, though. In many cases, people seem to be saying "I would benefit from this glyph, therefore NOT taking it means I'm missing out on something I SHOULD have, therefore it should be baked into the default ability so I don't ever have to go without." That argument is not reasonable or attainable, though. It's only attainable if the glyphs are entirely irrelevant and/or cosmetic, and that's not interesting design at all.

    Ghost Wolf is arguably the biggest troublemaker in this regard, and I agree that it could potentially be reworked; the decision on whether to glyph it is a little TOO binary for my liking, and basically boils down to "PvP? Glyph it." CC is too prevalent for this. However, you have always had to invest in Ghost Wolf to get it to full function. It used to be you needed 2 points in Ancestral Swiftness to make it instant-cast, and it had the speed reduction protection built-in. Now it's instant-cast by default, and you need to spend a glyph on the speed reduction. I don't really see that as a major shift. It opens up baseline Ghost Wolf to being useful in PvE, which before it was not. It still allows PvPers to get the full protection with a similar quality of investment (and yes; speccing Ancestral Swiftness as any spec in WotLK/Cata absolutely did require sacrificing throughput talents). Still, I can see an argument to change it out, perhaps reducing the speed increase to 15% and glyphing to 30% or some such.

    But the others? Capacitor Totem, Totemic Vigor, Purge, etc? These are EXACTLY what glyphs are supposed to be, and EXACTLY the kinds of choices you should be making. The ideal, to me, is that there should be 4-6 choices, and you can only take 3. You SHOULD feel like you're sacrificing something. That's the nature of choices. If you can just take all the stuff you can use, there's no "choice" being made, you're just filling out the form.

    If you're forced to pick between $20,000 cash or a new car, that doesn't mean if you pick the car you're out $20,000. It means you're up a car. That's the root of my issue with this argument; they assume they should have everything, and not getting everything is somehow "unfair". It's not. That's how it SHOULD be.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarasun View Post
    Bad comparison. You seem to miss the point where the glyph is completely mandatory. It's not about a choice. It's like saying, for example, in the old talent trees, Feral Spirit was an optional talent. You always had the choice to not spec in it, you know...
    It's not "mandatory". The only place it's arguably close to that is PvP, which is one part of the game. There's nothing wrong with a glyph being optimal for certain situations. Heavy movement as Elemental obviously favors Glyph of Unleashed Lightning, for instance. That doesn't make that glyph "mandatory", it means when the benefit is advantageous, you take the glyph.

    If all you do is one type of content and therefore you never change your glyphs, that's YOUR choice. It doesn't mean the glyphs you prefer are universally mandatory. I'm primarily a PvE player, though I'm getting into PvP this season too, but I don't go around saying that Glyph of Ghost Wolf is near-useless just because I never see a need for it in PvE. And that would be the other side of the argument you're trying to make. Both are wrong, for the same reason; you're confusing your own personal bias for universal truth.

  6. #106
    Bloodsail Admiral zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    But the others? Capacitor Totem, Totemic Vigor, Purge, etc? These are EXACTLY what glyphs are supposed to be, and EXACTLY the kinds of choices you should be making. The ideal, to me, is that there should be 4-6 choices, and you can only take 3. You SHOULD feel like you're sacrificing something. That's the nature of choices. If you can just take all the stuff you can use, there's no "choice" being made, you're just filling out the form.
    Agreed, but the thing with capacitor totem is that it requires a talent as well to be effective/reliable. Yes one can argue about the semantics of 'requires' and 'effective/reliable', but the reality is that once you reach a decent level in arena, you'll hardly find any opponents that will fall for a 5s stun and even fewer for a capacitor that you can't relocate. A 3s charged stun that can be relocated is a fairly balanced deal between the shaman and the victim imo.

    Either way, a 3s relocated CT requires both a talent and a glyph, and that's a pretty high cost. And since the CT glyph is tied to a talent it doesn't really fit the purge/hex/totemic vigor/grounding ... row.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Glyph of Ghost Wolf is pretty strong, but Purge isn't some powerhouse you can't do without, by any means. Maybe for Restoration, but Ele/Enh have a lot of other options that are at least as strong, if not moreso.
    I think you severely underestimate how good the glyph of purge is, it's one of the best (if not the best) ele shaman abilities. And when a glyph is so good (not to use OP) it doesn't offer much choice in practice.

  7. #107
    Well its apparent from the blue posts that they know pvp damage is an issue. Apparently the cc'ing pets and warrior while in their most threatening form(roots) is a small fix to see if the problem will become a solution(our damage flat out sucks so i dont think so in pvp). Which means we wont see any real change for months or until the next patch after 5.1 Bummer.

    Q: DPS Shaman and Rogues still aren’t happy in PvP. Why do you thrive on their unhappiness?
    A: In 5.1 we’re focused on stabilizing the PvP environment by addressing major outliers in balance. After we’ve accomplished that, we’ll be able to take a look at where things stand and make the appropriate adjustments from there, rather than sweeping changes all at once.

  8. #108
    Glyphs being optional is something that they have said is the design goal, and should be the case. However, they really aren't optional in a lot of cases. For example, for Elemental PvE, it's pretty black and white that Glyph of Flame Shock is a DPS increase 100% of the time. Glyph of Unleashed Lightning is a DPS increase for everything except Patchwerk/Ultraxion style fights (which is almost all PvE raiding). Glyph of Chain Lightning is a DPS increase for any fight with grouped AoE packs of 4+ adds.

    Ele PvE essentially has 2-3 glyphs that are pretty close to mandatory. They really can't afford to take utility or optional glyphs most of the time? Is it a flaw in class design relative to the designer goals with glyphs? Yes. But, it still doesn't really change the fact that the idea of glyphs being optional is more a concept than a reality in a lot of cases.

    The solution is that probably, the Flame Shock and Unleashed Lightning effects should be built baseline into the Ele passives. The Chain Lightning glyph is fine as is, because there are cases where you want it unglyphed. I can't think of any cases where you would want Unleashed Lightning or Flame Shock unglyphed in PvE.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    People need to have attainable goals, though. In many cases, people seem to be saying "I would benefit from this glyph, therefore NOT taking it means I'm missing out on something I SHOULD have, therefore it should be baked into the default ability so I don't ever have to go without." That argument is not reasonable or attainable, though. It's only attainable if the glyphs are entirely irrelevant and/or cosmetic, and that's not interesting design at all.
    There is a thin line between "I would benefit from this glyph" and "This ability doesn't make sense/almost impossible to use without the glyph"
    You are believing your own truth and claim that we want everything instead of reading and understand what we are trying to underline. In your logic, all glyphs should be baked, since all glyphs are beneficial. What's the point of a glyph if it isn't beneficial?

    That's not we are asking for, in our logic glyphs and talents should be hard choices. The ability itself should work just fine, and glyphs should alter/change abilities in a cool way, there should even be more than one glyph for one ability. If the ability itself has problems, of course its glyphs will have a problem and would have to be changed as well. As a long-time shaman player, I believe CPT is cool in thinking, but needs a revamp for its use, just like Trap Launcher had. Blizzard should come up with an idea and revamp it, so it'll be fun to use it, instead of frustrating (explained here). CPT's current design has to go, not only because it's too clunky, but it forces us -at least- to pick Totemic Projection. Nobody else is facing a similar forcing, pick a talent to use their original spell. It is also contradicts with the current design, this is plain wrong.

    Same goes for glyphs as well, benefitting is different, making it more reliable to use is much more different, since the ability itself should be reliable to use at baseline-level, and glyph should enhance/alter what it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Ghost Wolf is arguably the biggest troublemaker in this regard, and I agree that it could potentially be reworked; the decision on whether to glyph it is a little TOO binary for my liking, and basically boils down to "PvP? Glyph it." CC is too prevalent for this. However, you have always had to invest in Ghost Wolf to get it to full function. It used to be you needed 2 points in Ancestral Swiftness to make it instant-cast, and it had the speed reduction protection built-in. Now it's instant-cast by default, and you need to spend a glyph on the speed reduction. I don't really see that as a major shift. It opens up baseline Ghost Wolf to being useful in PvE, which before it was not. It still allows PvPers to get the full protection with a similar quality of investment (and yes; speccing Ancestral Swiftness as any spec in WotLK/Cata absolutely did require sacrificing throughput talents). Still, I can see an argument to change it out, perhaps reducing the speed increase to 15% and glyphing to 30% or some such.

    But the others? Capacitor Totem, Totemic Vigor, Purge, etc? These are EXACTLY what glyphs are supposed to be, and EXACTLY the kinds of choices you should be making. The ideal, to me, is that there should be 4-6 choices, and you can only take 3. You SHOULD feel like you're sacrificing something. That's the nature of choices. If you can just take all the stuff you can use, there's no "choice" being made, you're just filling out the form.

    If you're forced to pick between $20,000 cash or a new car, that doesn't mean if you pick the car you're out $20,000. It means you're up a car. That's the root of my issue with this argument; they assume they should have everything, and not getting everything is somehow "unfair". It's not. That's how it SHOULD be.
    There's no sacrificing now. Only sacrificing is between same-level-talents.
    I'm not going to go one-by-one on your examples because I don't see them as PvP or PvE, CC or non-CC, X or Y glyphs/talents. If any glyph or talent is aimed to fix a spell (making it more reliable to use is fixing, not gameplay enhancing, ability itself should be reliable to use), there should be some changes. Yes, we should have everything indeed, everything to make an ability reliable enough itself. Not all, but a few of the Shaman spells are like a melee Death Grip at the moment. Imagine Death Grip being melee only, and a glyph turns it to a ranged ability. Having Death Grip only usable in melee range doesn't make any sense to the purpose of the spell (ignore spell interrupt, DG's main purpose is to taunt and gap-closing), and the glyph would be mandatory if you want to use Death Grip ever. This design is flawed.

    In addition to all this, it's pointless to compare what we used to have and what we have now. MoP had such a huge effect on WoW than any other expensions ever. Blizzard's overall game-play philosophy has shifted from a system where you unlocked new points and spent those points by tiers to gain effects, which weren't equal and thus cookie-cutter builds, to all equality, no wrong picks, personal choices. It can clearly be seen in MoP and also Diablo 3, there are no wrong choices as before, so while making your choices, you don't sacrifice anything, you just choose what's more compelling to you and all choices should be equal in terms of power.

    It's like choosing a car between a Hatchback, a Sedan and a Coupé. All of them are cars and they are all $20.000 cash and everybody's granted the same amount. If you have a family with 4 children, you wouldn't take a Coupé, vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarasun View Post
    Bad comparison. You seem to miss the point where the glyph is completely mandatory. It's not about a choice. It's like saying, for example, in the old talent trees, Feral Spirit was an optional talent. You always had the choice to not spec in it, you know...
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's not "mandatory". The only place it's arguably close to that is PvP, which is one part of the game. There's nothing wrong with a glyph being optimal for certain situations. Heavy movement as Elemental obviously favors Glyph of Unleashed Lightning, for instance. That doesn't make that glyph "mandatory", it means when the benefit is advantageous, you take the glyph.

    If all you do is one type of content and therefore you never change your glyphs, that's YOUR choice. It doesn't mean the glyphs you prefer are universally mandatory. I'm primarily a PvE player, though I'm getting into PvP this season too, but I don't go around saying that Glyph of Ghost Wolf is near-useless just because I never see a need for it in PvE. And that would be the other side of the argument you're trying to make. Both are wrong, for the same reason; you're confusing your own personal bias for universal truth.
    Bolded part.
    Certain situations = Mobility requirement.
    Certain situations = Preferred rotation / playstyle.
    Certain situations = Your opponent's armor value. (who knows)
    Certain situations ≠ PvP / PvE.

    Ghost Wolf glyph is mandatory for PvP, no doubt. Without its snare reduction effect, it's not Ghost Wolf, it's just another sprint. Snare reduction part is always what made Ghost Wolf unique. Ghost Wolf isn't complete without the glyph, it's just another sprint. And it also pays its tax by being a magic effect, it can be dispelled. You may not feel Ghost Wolf's uniqueness in PvE much, but some spells are designed primary for PvP which is more than only being "one part of the game". PvP has direct effect on game design and class balance, it's not only a part of the game, it's a whole different enviroment.

    Your personal experience is mostly on PvE, and a little bit on PvP according to what you said. Maybe you are the one confusing your own bias for "universal truth" (which is not always what you claim), and only looking this from PvE point of view instead of PvE + PvP + Shaman's flavour view. You keep doing the same thing over and over in every discussion, telling that the idea you don't like is something else than a proven fact instead of counter-arguements. Not trying to make this personal, in fact I like argueing, but please produce arguements instead of telling one random of the following: "It's your idea, what I'm saying is the fact", "Your arguement is rubbish", "We are fine --> (thus there's nothing to discuss, as if we are always trying to prove that we need so many buffs or everything, unbalancingly)"

  10. #110
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Agreed, but the thing with capacitor totem is that it requires a talent as well to be effective/reliable. Yes one can argue about the semantics of 'requires' and 'effective/reliable', but the reality is that once you reach a decent level in arena, you'll hardly find any opponents that will fall for a 5s stun and even fewer for a capacitor that you can't relocate. A 3s charged stun that can be relocated is a fairly balanced deal between the shaman and the victim imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    There is a thin line between "I would benefit from this glyph" and "This ability doesn't make sense/almost impossible to use without the glyph"
    The both of you are still using hyperbole, and the idea that anything but "everything for free" is how it should be.

    Yes, it's harder to use without the benefits of the glyphs and talents. Those are SUPPOSED to increase the potential of the ability. They same goes for pretty much every other talent and glyph. "Harder to use" does not mean impossible. Nor is a small reduction in charge time a major overhaul that completely changes the ability.

    That's not we are asking for, in our logic glyphs and talents should be hard choices. The ability itself should work just fine, and glyphs should alter/change abilities in a cool way, there should even be more than one glyph for one ability.
    Capacitor Totem and Ghost Wolf do work just fine. They work better with the glyphs. Which is how it's supposed to work.

    You are literally arguing that you don't want to make this choice, so please don't try and claim that you're arguing for more hard choices.

    Bolded part.
    Certain situations = Mobility requirement.
    Certain situations = Preferred rotation / playstyle.
    Certain situations = Your opponent's armor value. (who knows)
    Certain situations ≠ PvP / PvE.
    Well, what kind of PvP? World PvP you could easily get around without it; I've never felt the need to glyph Ghost Wolf for Galleon/Sha killing and the resulting PvP clustermess. RBGs, depending on your comp and the enemy's comp, again, you might get away without it, but it's going to be trickier. Arenas? Yeah, you'll probably want it.

    And "Arenas" absolutely is a "certain situation". You need to break things down that tightly, the same way you break it down for "PvE" into leveling, 5-mans, raids, soloing old content, etc.

    Ghost Wolf glyph is mandatory for PvP, no doubt. Without its snare reduction effect, it's not Ghost Wolf, it's just another sprint. Snare reduction part is always what made Ghost Wolf unique. Ghost Wolf isn't complete without the glyph, it's just another sprint. And it also pays its tax by being a magic effect, it can be dispelled.
    If you really want to revert Ghost Wolf to the way it always was, bake in the current glyph, add a 2 second cast time, and make a new Glyph of Ghost Wolf that makes it instant cast.

    There you go; the Ghost Wolf you had for Cata and WotLK. Is that "better"? I would argue that no, it is not.

    Also; you're acting like a speed boost in PvP is never useful without speed protection. Other classes get by without it just fine. I'm not saying we should, I'm just poking holes in your claims that it's absolutely necessary or it's useless.

    Your personal experience is mostly on PvE, and a little bit on PvP according to what you said. Maybe you are the one confusing your own bias for "universal truth" (which is not always what you claim), and only looking this from PvE point of view instead of PvE + PvP + Shaman's flavour view.
    Again, if I were using personal bias due to my PvE preferences, I'd be saying Ghost Wolf is useless and nobody should ever take it.

    Am I saying that? No. I'm taking a balanced view with PvP considerations.

    You keep doing the same thing over and over in every discussion, telling that the idea you don't like is something else than a proven fact instead of counter-arguements. Not trying to make this personal, in fact I like argueing, but please produce arguements instead of telling one random of the following: "It's your idea, what I'm saying is the fact", "Your arguement is rubbish", "We are fine --> (thus there's nothing to discuss, as if we are always trying to prove that we need so many buffs or everything, unbalancingly)"
    Your entire argument is predicated that Capacitor Totem and Ghost Wolf are useless without the glyphs.

    That is patently false, since they DO work. They're less effective, sure. Pretty much every ability is less effective without the appropriate glyphs. That's the PURPOSE of glyphs.

    You've never given any reason why that reduction is critically different for these two abilities. Not even a single bit. Just the hyperbole that they're useless, and again, that's demonstrably false. They're just less effective and provide less benefit. Which they should, being unglyphed.

    I can't provide structured, detailed arguments against falsehoods and hyperbole, other than to point them out as such.

    They are less effective, unglyphed. They are not ineffective.

  11. #111
    First of all, why are you picking sentences that you can answer to and ignore whatever else I say?
    I do full explainations on my claims, of course it will be difficult for you to understand the differences between what I'm saying and what you think it is.
    Still, I can explain them a thousand times more anyway;

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The both of you are still using hyperbole, and the idea that anything but "everything for free" is how it should be.

    Yes, it's harder to use without the benefits of the glyphs and talents. Those are SUPPOSED to increase the potential of the ability. They same goes for pretty much every other talent and glyph. "Harder to use" does not mean impossible. Nor is a small reduction in charge time a major overhaul that completely changes the ability.
    I DON'T want everything for free. I DON'T want all the benefits of glyphs and talents.
    I want the ability to be complete, self-sufficiant and reliable to use.
    Glyphs are supposed to add a flavour to the spell, they shouldn't make the whole mechanism work/work easier. Glyphs are not bugfixes or quality of life improvements. If they are, they become mandatory. Mandatory selection is done with Cataclysm, this is an era where we pick whatever suits us the best. QoL improvements are not choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Capacitor Totem and Ghost Wolf do work just fine. They work better with the glyphs. Which is how it's supposed to work.

    You are literally arguing that you don't want to make this choice, so please don't try and claim that you're arguing for more hard choices.
    This is exactly what I'm talking about.
    When you say they are fine, are you aware it doesn't make it a fact? Saying they are fine doesn't make it true unless you explain how they are fine.

    Both CPT and GW are roughly %70 PvP - %30 PvE orianted spells. From your point of view, since you are more of a PvE'r, they might look fine and don't effect you much. However this doesn't make them fine. I explained how they are not fine in my previous posts, I would like to hear how they are fine as counter-arguements.

    If they are working better with the glyphs, there is no choice, if you PvP, you have to take them, nobrainer. This is wrong.
    If they are working just fine on their own and glyph's enhancement suits your playstyle, you can consider getting it. This is correct. This is the way it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Well, what kind of PvP? World PvP you could easily get around without it; I've never felt the need to glyph Ghost Wolf for Galleon/Sha killing and the resulting PvP clustermess. RBGs, depending on your comp and the enemy's comp, again, you might get away without it, but it's going to be trickier. Arenas? Yeah, you'll probably want it.

    And "Arenas" absolutely is a "certain situation". You need to break things down that tightly, the same way you break it down for "PvE" into leveling, 5-mans, raids, soloing old content, etc.
    PvE might be debatable, but PvP is not. PvP is balanced around Arena; furthermore, not only any Arena. 3v3 bracket decides the game-design and balance.

    Obviously enough if an ability is more PvP orianted, you don't balance it towards its performance on leveling or Sha, you mainly balance it on its PvP performance, which is 3v3 Arena.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you really want to revert Ghost Wolf to the way it always was, bake in the current glyph, add a 2 second cast time, and make a new Glyph of Ghost Wolf that makes it instant cast.

    There you go; the Ghost Wolf you had for Cata and WotLK. Is that "better"? I would argue that no, it is not.

    Also; you're acting like a speed boost in PvP is never useful without speed protection. Other classes get by without it just fine. I'm not saying we should, I'm just poking holes in your claims that it's absolutely necessary or it's useless.
    Never compare Ghost Wolf to another speed boost. Ghost Wolf hasn't only been about a speed boost.
    Whenever somebody else does it, you say it's apples and oranges, we shouldn't compare Shaman abilities 1:1 with other class abilities. This is where you conflict yourself.

    Ghost Wolf is a dispellable form, granting you speed boost and making you never drop below %100 movespeed.
    A + B = Ghost Form. Drop the %100 movespeed, you have another sprint, drop the speed boost it's Death's Advance. This is neither, this is Ghost Wolf which is an unique ability.

    Blizzard made it baseline instant since a spell made for escaping, chasing and mobility doesn't have much use with 2 second cast time. It adapted to MoP design and current enviroment. However, its unique part which seperated it from being a Shaman spell and just another sprint, is tied to the glyph, thus making the glyph mandatory. You like formulas, here's the formula:

    %30 dispellable sprint with no cd + Glyph of Ghost Wolf = Ghost Wolf

    This is wrong.

    Ghost Wolf should be equal to Ghost Wolf instead of "some sprint". And;

    Ghost Wolf + Glyph of Ghost Wolf = *something cool*, if it fits me --> take it, if not --> don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Again, if I were using personal bias due to my PvE preferences, I'd be saying Ghost Wolf is useless and nobody should ever take it.

    Am I saying that? No. I'm taking a balanced view with PvP considerations.
    Take this as honest critism, your view on PvP is pretty limited which is understandable, everybody has a starting point. But this limited view clouds your final balanced opinion. Instead of admitting that your arguement might be limited due to your experience, you choose to claim that your arguements are facts. They are not, as long as you keep saying "they are fine" without producing any valuable arguements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Your entire argument is predicated that Capacitor Totem and Ghost Wolf are useless without the glyphs.

    That is patently false, since they DO work. They're less effective, sure. Pretty much every ability is less effective without the appropriate glyphs. That's the PURPOSE of glyphs.

    You've never given any reason why that reduction is critically different for these two abilities. Not even a single bit. Just the hyperbole that they're useless, and again, that's demonstrably false. They're just less effective and provide less benefit. Which they should, being unglyphed.

    I can't provide structured, detailed arguments against falsehoods and hyperbole, other than to point them out as such.

    They are less effective, unglyphed. They are not ineffective.
    Again, I explained all the points above:
    - Glyphs don't make abilities more effective, abilities should not be less effective without glyphs. Abilities should function just fine on their own and glyphs should add flavour.

    Example: Glyph of Dark Soul
    Hypotheticly, I'm a cooldown saver. I don't like blowing cooldowns on cd much, I would rather save them a bit and use them whenever I feel more appropriate.
    This glyph suits my playstyle, it does have a benefit, for my playstyle, so I pick this one.
    Dark Soul does its own work and will continue to be DPS cooldown without the glyph too. I'm just adding a bit flavour, according to my playstyle. Correct.
    In our case, Ghost Wolf doesn't do its own work and depends heavily on the glyph to do its work. Wrong.

    - Explain to me how they DO work on their own with reasonable arguements. Even better, try 3v3'ing without the glyph and on a decent enough rating that your opponents know what they are doing. You'll see with your own eyes, the amount of snares, how you can't compete against them and how mandatory is the glyph, you can experience yourself. This will give you a better view on the subject, and how MoP PvP actually is. You can produce your own structured and detailed arguements easily afterwards.

    This will be a better arguement than "you are plain wrong, they do work, because your logic is wrong."

    - Are you even reading my posts? Without any counter-arguements, how come/how dare you refer to my posts as falsehoods and hyperbole? You have a limited look on the subject (according to what you have said before, not my opinion), you don't try to disproof me at all and ignoring all the points I have made, calling them falsehoods. This is the part where you become mean. If I'm treating you with respect and explaining all my points to every single detail, I expect the same in return before you comment.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Glyph of Ghost Wolf is pretty strong, but Purge isn't some powerhouse you can't do without, by any means. Maybe for Restoration, but Ele/Enh have a lot of other options that are at least as strong, if not moreso.
    Pretty strong? Seriously?
    Its down right mandatory

    And Purge is a power house and apart from Ghost wolf its Number 1 or 2 on the Priority list
    Im not criticizing the Glyph of Purge or wanting it baked in btw

    Neither of these are true. You're confusing "I want the advantage this glyph brings" with "the ability does not work without this glyph". They are NOT the same.
    Both of the statements are true

    Ghost Wolf and CPT Un-Glyphed cannot be used in PvP

    Equating them is essentially the same thing as a kid saying they'll die if they have to eat their peas. It's just hyperbole. If your issue is that you want the glyph's benefits, then you take the glyph. That's not a reason to demand it get baked into the ability. All you're doing is explaining why it's a useful glyph, not that it SHOULDN'T be a glyph.
    There is a difference between useful and mandatory

    Ill highlight a part for ur previous post
    that's what glyphs are for; tweaking your gameplay to be how you prefer it.
    Glyph of Hex vs Glyph of Thunder

    Ur gameplay style might prefer a shorter CD on CC while my gameplay style prefer a shorter CD on a Gap Opener

    Do u not see the difference here?
    Thunderstorm and Hex work in PvP even without the Glyph
    Ghost Wolf and CPT do not
    Last edited by Chainreactor; 2012-11-11 at 08:52 AM.

  13. #113
    imo ghost wolf glyph should be baked int curent skill and new one should be made with lets say 10%-15% movement incerse while in ghots wolf form that would be optional choice with some benefit and not so much drawbacks
    similiar thing could be done with capacitor it could be used with 1 click to put the totem and second click could realses the stun (out gcd ofc), it could be used with totemic projection and in mele range quite sucesfully and without braking the game cose i dont know about any other cc that can be dispeled, avoided and destroyed at same time so easly as our CP totem

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Just as a side note on that; our RNG during Cata was one of the lowest in the game. The big shift for MoP is that a lot of our damage in that one Ascendance cooldown, and while it's not affected by Critical Strike rating, it IS affected by Mastery in pretty much the same way; a chance for additional damage. If you're focusing JUST on your Ascendance burst, yes, you could easily see big swings in DPS between one attempt and the next, particularly during openings, due to RNG and RNG alone.

    That doesn't mean your boss kill DPS will suffer the same fate, though. RNG being RNG, you'll tend to even out over the rest of the fight. An unlucky streak at the start might leave you lagging a big, but not outside that +/- 5% range I mentioned, on average.

    I'm not saying we don't have a bunch of RNG, I'm just saying it's not THAT much more different than someone else popping their CDs and just not getting crits. Everyone sees this. Ascendance in our opening, with our big spike damage, just makes it really visible if you're watching the meters.
    The problem is that we don't even come close in dps to other classes without Ascendance, I think it needs tweaking. I don't like my dps depending on 1 cooldown. I'd say make it last 10 seconds or something and let lava burtst or fulmination reduce it's cooldown. The longer the fight goes on the lower you see elementals go on meters just because we can't compete with other dps if we can't get in that 1 extra ascendance.

  15. #115
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    The problem is that we don't even come close in dps to other classes without Ascendance, I think it needs tweaking. I don't like my dps depending on 1 cooldown. I'd say make it last 10 seconds or something and let lava burtst or fulmination reduce it's cooldown. The longer the fight goes on the lower you see elementals go on meters just because we can't compete with other dps if we can't get in that 1 extra ascendance.
    You could say that about literally any class, though.
    - Warrior would be way worse without Recklessness
    - Ret Paladin would do way less dps without Wings
    - Warlocks would be much weaker without Dark Soul

    The list could go on. Everyone's dps is balanced under the idea that they'll use their cooldowns appropriately and effectively.

  16. #116
    Basically 100% agreeing with Mithgroth .

    Maybe change GW glyph so that it grants the ability of using it indoors, and making the snare reduction baseline instead? After all, the indoors aspect is much more situational than the snare reduction.
    In instances/raids you only use it for running back to the boss after a wipe (and sometimes during encounters, noted).
    In pvp it comes only handy in for example wsg bases and alterac bunkers. In arena that aspect is completely worthless.

    It's basically a nerf to baseline shaman pve utility, but a buff to baseline shaman pvp utility.
    And even if one now said "But it is totally needed during encounters, cant pass that up!", pve is also just another "situational" aspect of the game :P.
    I dont think any pve'er would ever take that glyph unless it became minor though (or the encounter requiring LOTS of movement).

    And I like your idea of adding snare/root break to UF:FB, Mithgroth. Would solve a lot of problems (though we'd still be pidgeon-holed into taking it).
    Your point about ret being in the same as us w/o their HoF is also right on the spot.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2012-11-11 at 04:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    You could say that about literally any class, though.
    - Warrior would be way worse without Recklessness
    - Ret Paladin would do way less dps without Wings
    - Warlocks would be much weaker without Dark Soul

    The list could go on. Everyone's dps is balanced under the idea that they'll use their cooldowns appropriately and effectively.
    The problem lies a lot higher with elemental or are you honestly comparing the dps spike of those classes with an elemental shaman with ascendance. What your saying would apply if our non cooldown dps would come close to what other dps are pulling...wich it doesn't.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 07:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Basically 100% agreeing with Mithgroth .

    Maybe change GW glyph so that it grants the ability of using it indoors, and making the snare reduction baseline instead? After all, the indoors aspect is much more situational than the snare reduction.
    In instances/raids you only use it for running back to the boss after a wipe (and sometimes during encounters, noted).
    In pvp it comes only handy in for example wsg bases and alterac bunkers. In arena that aspect is completely worthless.

    It's basically a nerf to baseline shaman pve utility, but a buff to baseline shaman pvp utility.
    And even if one now said "But it is totally needed during encounters, cant pass that up!", pve is also just another "situational" aspect of the game :P.
    I dont think any pve'er would ever take that glyph unless it became minor though (or the encounter requiring LOTS of movement).

    And I like your idea of adding snare/root break to UF:FB, Mithgroth. Would solve a lot of problems (though we'd still be pidgeon-holed into taking it).
    Your point about ret being in the same as us w/o their HoF is also right on the spot.
    If you are only using GW to run back after a wipe than I feel sorry for your healers/raid.

  18. #118
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    The problem lies a lot higher with elemental or are you honestly comparing the dps spike of those classes with an elemental shaman with ascendance. What your saying would apply if our non cooldown dps would come close to what other dps are pulling...wich it doesn't.
    You said that we wouldn't be close to other classes without the use of Ascendance. I mentioned other classes that would suffer quite a bit without the use of their major cooldowns.

    At no point did you ever mention anything about spike/burst damage, or being unhappy with how damage distribution is playing out.

    If that's the argument, imagine how warriors feel with their dps being balanced so heavily on execute range. You could say similar things about Affliction Warlocks.

    Damage distribution of spells/burst/sustained dps is different on purpose between various classes/specs. So long as the end result is 'balanced', I don't see how it's a huge deal.

    If that's not what you're saying, please clarify so I can actually understand.

  19. #119
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    Glyphs are supposed to add a flavour to the spell, they shouldn't make the whole mechanism work/work easier. Glyphs are not bugfixes or quality of life improvements. If they are, they become mandatory. Mandatory selection is done with Cataclysm, this is an era where we pick whatever suits us the best. QoL improvements are not choices.
    Not true. There's nothing wrong with certain glyphs being optimal for certain situational circumstances.

    This is exactly what I'm talking about.
    When you say they are fine, are you aware it doesn't make it a fact? Saying they are fine doesn't make it true unless you explain how they are fine.
    Because they both work, as written, without being glyphed. They are obviously more limited, but the same is true of any ability with a glyph that improves performance.

    You are starting from the presumption that the glyphed form is the baseline, and that's just not true. You aren't losing out if you don't glyph. You're gaining if you do glyph.

    PvE might be debatable, but PvP is not. PvP is balanced around Arena; furthermore, not only any Arena. 3v3 bracket decides the game-design and balance.

    Obviously enough if an ability is more PvP orianted, you don't balance it towards its performance on leveling or Sha, you mainly balance it on its PvP performance, which is 3v3 Arena.
    And for PvE, they tune around raiding.

    That's irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that 3v3 Arenas are absolutely a niche situation, and certain glyphs being optimal for that is perfectly fine.

    Never compare Ghost Wolf to another speed boost. Ghost Wolf hasn't only been about a speed boost.
    Whenever somebody else does it, you say it's apples and oranges, we shouldn't compare Shaman abilities 1:1 with other class abilities. This is where you conflict yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    Without its snare reduction effect, it's not Ghost Wolf, it's just another sprint.
    You can't attack me for responding to your own comment. I was merely pointing out that your comment was that it was just another sprint, and therefore useless, while ignoring that sprints do have value. You're the one who made the bad comparison. I merely pointed out how your own comparison didn't support your point.

    - Glyphs don't make abilities more effective, abilities should not be less effective without glyphs. Abilities should function just fine on their own and glyphs should add flavour.
    So you ARE saying glyphs should be merely cosmetic.

    You're wrong.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    When we say we don't want mandatory glyphs for PvE, what we're actually saying is we don't want a glyph that generally provides a DPS increase in most situations (if you are a DPS spec). In PvP, sustained DPS is only slightly valuable. On the other hand, a glyph that provides burst damage at the expense of sustained damage, or a glyph that provides extra CC or CC immunity looks awfully attractive for PvP. We'll still try and make sure there are no cookie-cutter talent or glyph builds though.
    Source
    What you're talkiing about simply is not the intent of the new glyph system.

    - Explain to me how they DO work on their own with reasonable arguements. Even better, try 3v3'ing without the glyph and on a decent enough rating that your opponents know what they are doing. You'll see with your own eyes, the amount of snares, how you can't compete against them and how mandatory is the glyph, you can experience yourself. This will give you a better view on the subject, and how MoP PvP actually is. You can produce your own structured and detailed arguements easily afterwards.

    This will be a better arguement than "you are plain wrong, they do work, because your logic is wrong."
    I haven't been saying they're just as effective, unglyphed. I've been saying they have some value unglyphed. It's obviously going to be less than glyphed; otherwise, you wouldn't bother with the glyph. You're arguing that they have zero value unglyphed, and that's simply not true at any reasonable glance. A speed increase still has value, even if it doesn't protect against speed reductions. A stun still has value, even if it's significantly harder to execute, even if you just use it as area-denial or forcing them to target it rather than expecting it to stun anyone. Or heck, if they've burned their trinket and can't break a long-duration CC (as opposed to a 2-second stun), drop Capacitor on them. It'll pop right around when the CC ends, stunning them for another 5 seconds, and there's little they can do about it; they'd need an ally with a Dispel. This isn't "zero value", this is "less value".

    You seem to be acting as if I need to prove that they're just as effective unglyphed, which isn't my claim. You're also pushing the burden of proof to me; you've NEVER proven they have zero value. You've said it, and your response when called out on that is just "oh, you couldn't understand". No, that's garbage. I actually play PvP in other games pretty extensively. Something about WoW's PvP bugs me, but I'm not new to the concept or how high-level PvP gaming works in general. I'm well aware of the value these glyphs would have, and that Ghost Wolf in particular may be a bit too strong.

    But "really good and you pretty much need this for 3v3" is not the same as "mandatory for all PvP". Especially with Capacitor Totem. Nor, as blue posts have made clear, is the "no mandatory glyphs" really meant to factor in to PvP; they're well aware that certain glyphs will become seriously advantageous for PvP based on how PvP works, and they were fine with that.

    you don't try to disproof me at all and ignoring all the points I have made, calling them falsehoods. This is the part where you become mean.
    I'm cutting sections out that aren't relevant to my response, just to keep the size of the post down. However, there's a lot of proof in my posts. I'm pointing out what should be fairly obvious facts, like that Ghost Wolf and Capacitor Totem have value unglyphed. That's not an argument; that's a fact. The argument is when I point out that your statements otherwise are therefore false. And when you say something that's contrary to the facts, that's what it is; false.

    That doesn't make me "mean", it means I'm pointing out hyperbole for what it is. I'm not calling you a poopooheaad, I'm pointing out that you're having to exaggerate things to try to make your case.

  20. #120
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    I didn't feel like going through every single battlegroup from EU and US....so this list is incomplete. But here's a short list of shamans that either don't use glyph of capacitor or glyph of ghostwolf, or in some cases neither. It happens more often than people realize but heres a few.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Zeiyo/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rulam/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ossan/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...leygu/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Oxel/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...saann/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%ADng/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ously/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...utile/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...D0%B3/advanced

    If you're interested in seeing how ppl glyph and talent these are the links to arena ladders, I think many will be surprised how easy it is to find ppl who don't use "mandatory" glyphs. Or "mandatory" talents for that matter.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/blackout/3v3
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/arena/bloodlust/3v3

    And just so people don't say I'm cherrypicking: take a closer look at the US ladder that I linked. That's Bloodlust which has long been considered the premiere battlegroup for serious pvp'ers. Now use the filter so it only show teams with shamans. There are 30 teams with a shaman, in this particular BG, @2200 or higher. 20/30 either don't use glyph of gw(5) or don't use glyph of capacitor (11) or don't use both(4).

    The vast majority of shamans who don't pick one or both of these glyphs find purge to be much more useful. You'll be hard pressed to find an arena team that doesn't feature 1 of either a druid, mage, paladin, priest, or shaman which are all classes that its very important to purge.

    So don't be surprised if purge gets nerfed.

    The point is these abilities aren't what's holding the class back, whether you feel you have to glyph or talent them to make them functional.

    If you're of the opinion that enhancement has mobility issues, the problem will remain whether the glyph of gw/capacitor is baseline or not. People were complaining about enhancement mobility long before that glyph was ever introduced.

    If you're of the opinion that elemental has survivability and/or dps issues, the problem will persist whether the glyph of gw/capacitor is baseline or not.

    Whatever issues the specs are having should be handled through the specs which is why I feel that these complaints about the glyphs and the abilities that they are associated with do nothing more then serve to distract us from the real problems at hand.
    Last edited by shell; 2012-11-11 at 07:51 PM.
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