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  1. #41
    Fire is all about combustion.. Just time everything to get the perfect combustion. Jade spirit, your on use trinket, proc trinket. Try getting 4-5 pyros in a row while you have everything up and combust = profit
    Some people here underestimate frost tho. It has amazing burst and is the spec to go for some fights. Frost also has a more consistent dps.

    Felt like adding.. If you are only throwing a good combustion and you are unlucky till your next combustion it is for sure that you will do less dps as fire than frost.
    Last edited by Rorschachs; 2012-11-06 at 12:57 PM.

  2. #42
    I feel your pain I truly do.

    Bottom line play the spec that you put out the most damage in. I respec'd fire because I wanted to get higher numbers however when the gods were handing out the luck I think I was copping off with some girl because RNG hates me. I do more damage as frost period, the key test for me was when testing frost in my fire spec'd gear and I was still doing more damage!!!

    Since then I beat our guild fire mage on most fights, I am no longer down there on the logs put pushing rankings every fight, if I can just sort out my poor evocation planning I will pick up a rank every single fight.

  3. #43
    The Patient royals's Avatar
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    I agree that both specs sim QUITE CLOSE, but as for the "normals don't matter" statement that is relatively ignorant. He was using that fight as an example since that boss is basically a raid buffed punching bag. If you look at the heroic version of the same graph here: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_.../60/default/#3

    You can see that in heroic the difference is over 10% in favor of fire mages on that graph as well.
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  4. #44
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by royals View Post
    I agree that both specs sim QUITE CLOSE, but as for the "normals don't matter" statement that is relatively ignorant. He was using that fight as an example since that boss is basically a raid buffed punching bag. If you look at the heroic version of the same graph here: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_the_.../60/default/#3

    You can see that in heroic the difference is over 10% in favor of fire mages on that graph as well.
    It's still best to try both and play what works better. Ideally you would run some raids multiple times with both specs and see what works better but since that's not always an option you might just have to go with your gut and play what feels right. There's a lot of other factors affecting a raid groups performance other than the max capable damage of a spec. I find personally practice and experience with the fights mechanics and how you play your spec/class accordingly is the real defining factor when raiding.

  5. #45
    Might also be a gear issue.

    If you have more haste on your gear than crit, then you're going to do better in frost spec than fire spec, just because your stats favor frost, and the two specs are close enough that this can matter.

  6. #46
    it depends on the fight. for movement heavy fights, or for many adds (4. boss in heart of fear) fire will be better overall, for singletarget frost seems ahead. at least thats what our mage does.

  7. #47
    Too many people focusing on combustion here. Combustion is not the be all end all people seem to make out. It is better to make sure you get out as many combustions in a fight as the duration of the boss allows than to hold combustion for that "once in a lifetime ignite". There are now other huge considerations that account for large amounts of our dps.

    The dot of pyroblast is significant dps the higher you can have the uptime the better your dps will will be. Before someone says it no this is not RNG since you dont have to throw out your pyroblast as soon as it procs you can hold it for a sort time to increase the chance of extending the uptime. You should be aiming for 85%+ for reasonable play at least (on tank and spank adjust as needed).

    Your dmg talent is also very important. I see the uptime on this often swings between mages its a huge amount of dps to drop when not keeping optimal uptime. This should at all times have a 90% uptime (excluding absorption which sucks anyway so you shouldnt use it:P )

    Bomb uptime. This should be above 90% easily since you can clip the last little part of a bomb.

    Combustion does not have any mechanical problems as far as i am aware. The problems someone brought up with "munching" are in fact human error. You can always hit IB on time after a crit if you dont it isnt a bug its a human error learn from it and improve, mash the buttons faster. If the ignite fell off its also not a bug get a mod to track your ignite better. Ignition has a timer for when the dot will change so its pretty simple to see if your taking a risk and hitting near a change or not. Large ignites are not really what your looking for its "good enough" ones and using the spell as often as you can which will net you the most from the spell. There are ways to force soem strong ones like getting HS hitting alter time then doing fireball->pyro->AT->pyro->refreshbomb/fireball/scorch->combustion. Withotu alter time just get an ignite thats 4/3 - 5/3 of your average ignite then throw it out there.

    Fire is on average above frost regardless of what some people seem to think. There is a reason the top mages on the planet are playing fire and not frost it is not because they lack skill since these are the best it is simply because fire does more.

  8. #48
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    yes fire is doing more damage than frost. (on most encounters) no fire doesnt have any rng. ~50% crit isnt rng.

    use addons to track crits so you know when to use inferno blast. stack all cooldowns and try to use it while trinkets/enchants/whateverbuffyoumayhave is up.
    ^This, also fire haven been changed so you've got a lot more control on when to get the big ignites / pyro's, it just requires you to know how to play fire.

  9. #49
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    I play fire, just because I enjoy it more.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

  10. #50
    I love all the Frost mages claiming fire to be RNG, witch is just blatant ignorance of the proper way to play the spec. it was RNG in cata, not in MoP. i really dont care to explain as i have done so in several threads. and people should learn to use the search option. or just read/test more aspects of their spec.
    But sure if you want we can call 1/2 - 2/3 chance of !pyro's rng.

  11. #51
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    I love all the Frost mages claiming fire to be RNG, witch is just blatant ignorance of the proper way to play the spec. it was RNG in cata, not in MoP. i really dont care to explain as i have done so in several threads. and people should learn to use the search option. or just read/test more aspects of their spec.
    But sure if you want we can call 1/2 - 2/3 chance of !pyro's rng.
    I think the argument is that both Frost and Fire require good timing to maximize your DPS.
    Fire yields to luck: did you combustion at an unideal time or did something in the fight change (unforeseen) where spreading it would've been more ideal at a different time? This is misconstrued as RNG, when it's actually timing and luck. Also heating up sucks, in my opinion. Heating up and cancel-casting is clunky and un-fun to me.
    Frost is a control-freak's wet dream. You are in charge of time itself.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    I love all the Frost mages claiming fire to be RNG, witch is just blatant ignorance of the proper way to play the spec. it was RNG in cata, not in MoP. i really dont care to explain as i have done so in several threads. and people should learn to use the search option. or just read/test more aspects of their spec.
    But sure if you want we can call 1/2 - 2/3 chance of !pyro's rng.
    It's still RNG. Sure getting HS procs is a lot easier nowadays. But thanks to combustion being a big part of our damage you actually have to get some pyro crits. RNG says hi, have fun.

    Playing fire atm, got bored of frost after playing it for so long.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I think the argument is that both Frost and Fire require good timing to maximize your DPS.
    Fire yields to luck: did you combustion at an unideal time or did something in the fight change (unforeseen) where spreading it would've been more ideal at a different time? This is misconstrued as RNG, when it's actually timing and luck. Also heating up sucks, in my opinion. Heating up and cancel-casting is clunky and un-fun to me.
    Frost is a control-freak's wet dream. You are in charge of time itself.
    Cancel casting for HU ? you on crack?... you should never do that, unless you have like 500ms+.
    HU is amazing specially considering the double roll on crits you can get with the 0.5s cancel delay on HU.

    HU basically is the sole reason fire is not at all rng any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Friyn View Post
    It's still RNG. Sure getting HS procs is a lot easier nowadays. But thanks to combustion being a big part of our damage you actually have to get some pyro crits. RNG says hi, have fun.

    Playing fire atm, got bored of frost after playing it for so long.
    If you still think fire is rng it is up to you, all i can say is your doing it wrong. Or dont quite understand the meaning of rng.
    Last edited by stX3; 2012-11-09 at 12:38 AM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    Cancel casting for HU ? you on crack?... you should never do that, unless you have like 500ms+.
    HU is amazing specially considering the double roll on crits you can get with the 0.5s cancel delay on HU.

    HU basically is the sole reason fire is not at all rng any more.



    If you still think fire is rng it is up to you, all i can say is your doing it wrong. Or dont quite understand the meaning of rng.
    Your lack of 90th percentile on every fight with that ilvl do not agree with you.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Your lack of 90th percentile on every fight with that ilvl do not agree with you.
    I dont know what you mean.
    Im guessing its something alone the lines of me not ranking every fight on wol top 200 as the nr 400 ilvl mage? witch in it self makes no sense...
    I could be wrong though as your comment is extremely vague. Though i can say that ilvl aint all F.ex. my cloak(489) compared to my previous conquest cloak(483) is only a ~40dps increase in sims, though going up another 7ilvl to hof cloak would net me a lot more than 40dps.. get my point?
    Padding meters aint all either.

    Im just guessing because because your comment makes no sense, even less with my quote. But i guess you support cancel casting when you need HS from HU+IB, good luck with that.

  16. #56
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullarkie View Post
    Here's the average:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_The_...100/14/30/avg/

    Still higher than frost.
    But it's the top 100 parses, which in theory could mean are the 100 with the most luck on RNG.... or at least above average on RNG....

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Here's what you need to do.

    First, get at least one (preferably two) Intellect/Spellpower procc trinkets (Elegon's Trinket, DMF Trinket, even the Coren Direbrew will work for a bit). Next, start a fight by evocating and getting ready to throw a Pyroblast (link NT to it). Then, do your rotation as normal but DO NOT use your hot streak if you get one.

    Wait for both HS and one (preferably both) trinket(s) to procc. Now, pop a macro that has the following:

    /use <Insert 10 for Engineering glove enchant, 13/14 for an on-use trinket)
    /cast Presence of Mind
    /cast Alter Time

    Pop your HS Pyro and your PoM Pyro (and if you get lucky, an additional 1-2 pyros from more Hot Streaks). Pop Alter Time and rinse/repeat this line. Combust when out of instant Pyros.

    Enjoy!

    PS: You do the Alter Time combusts every other combust. When you do a non-Alter Time combust, you use PoM.

    PPS: Feel free to delay Combustion a little bit to line up PoM+HS with a trinket (Add AT on the odd-numbered Combusts)
    This is your answer for some AWSOM DPS

    I had the same feeling as you, felt low on DPS for Fire. But now my Crit has raised to 28% and I got rid of Scorch for PoM and trying to get the nice procs in a row, you're damage can go through the roof.
    -It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!-

  18. #58
    Fire is RNG not because combustion is RNG but because the amount of relative damage that a crit will add to your overal damage is. Lets say you have a hypothetical 50% crit chance. The difference between getting 40% crits on a fight and 60% is HUGE.

    All specs have RNG. Frost, for example has some with FoF generation. If -for some reason- mastery was frost's best stat, then frost's RNG would be significantly higher due to the relative amount of dps that FoF and crits would add. A haste-reforged frost mage is very low RNG, a crit reforged mage is low to medium RNG, and a fire mage is HIGH rng.

    d.w.i.

  19. #59
    If fire wasn't rng as some people say, there wouldn't be such large dps differences in dps between mages. The amount of crits during different fights should be relatively comparable, but if yuo happen to build up a huge ignite before combusting, and get multiple huge combusts in 1 fight, your dps will vary by a lot. Delaying combust until your trinkets are procced and then building a big ignite with alter time is a good way to do huge combusts.

  20. #60
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Then we have redefined our notion of RNG? Because until MoP, Fire Mage RNG was "we need to get two crits in a row and our entire rotation and gameplay depends on it". That's something that doesn't exist anymore.

    Every class and every spec have the same other kind of RNG - "if I get more crits I do more damage" - with Fire it's just slightly more beneficial because of the off-InfernoBlast potential Hot Streak procs. As far as lucky crits just before Combustion go, that will level out statistically over the fights because there are loads of Fire mages out there. So we might want to stop showing Fire as a victim of RNG, because it's not. Stop looking at World of Logs parses, disable Recount and focus on your gear, reforging, gems, rotation and skills and you'd be surprised how much RNG will stop mattering to you.

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