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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Then we have redefined our notion of RNG? Because until MoP, Fire Mage RNG was "we need to get two crits in a row and our entire rotation and gameplay depends on it". That's something that doesn't exist anymore.

    Every class and every spec have the same other kind of RNG - "if I get more crits I do more damage" - with Fire it's just slightly more beneficial because of the off-InfernoBlast potential Hot Streak procs. As far as lucky crits just before Combustion go, that will level out statistically over the fights because there are loads of Fire mages out there. So we might want to stop showing Fire as a victim of RNG, because it's not. Stop looking at World of Logs parses, disable Recount and focus on your gear, reforging, gems, rotation and skills and you'd be surprised how much RNG will stop mattering to you.
    We have not redefined RNG, simply changed our perspective on what constitutes 'bad' or 'high' RNG. Cataclysm fire RNG was so high it would appear off the charts if compared to any class/spec (except maybe spriest?) in mists. Mists fire experiences a much milder RNG swing, but theres no reason to think it doesn't still exist. I could be mistaken but I dont think anyone was trying to portray fire as a "victim" of RNG - in fact I think the point that has been made most is that fire mages will appear high on WoL ranks because of it, which is true.

    Advising people to work on their rotation and skills and simultaneously telling them to not look at parses and to disable their recounts is dangerous advice. I think what you probably meant was 'practice and execution (and gear) play the biggest role in your dps' which obviously I agree with. We use the tools available to us to analyze our performance, hence parses.

    The issue of RNG is just bickering over semantics (which I love to do) but you're right - it doesn't really matter.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Fire is RNG not because combustion is RNG but because the amount of relative damage that a crit will add to your overal damage is. Lets say you have a hypothetical 50% crit chance. The difference between getting 40% crits on a fight and 60% is HUGE.

    All specs have RNG. Frost, for example has some with FoF generation. If -for some reason- mastery was frost's best stat, then frost's RNG would be significantly higher due to the relative amount of dps that FoF and crits would add. A haste-reforged frost mage is very low RNG, a crit reforged mage is low to medium RNG, and a fire mage is HIGH rng.

    d.w.i.
    as you said the difference in 40% and 60% is indeed huge, the difference is not Rng though, its researching your spec and/or testing your self.
    I will tell you this much, there is a way to gain 2/3 of a chance to regain HS with 30% raid buffed crit. That is more than your 60% crit, and this is with a raid buffed crit around 31%. But really i dont want to explain this in yet another thread. Do your own research. so again its not Rng but knowledge of your spec and how to maximize it, some people would call that skill(not me).

    Quote Originally Posted by nsnlol View Post
    If fire wasn't rng as some people say, there wouldn't be such large dps differences in dps between mages. The amount of crits during different fights should be relatively comparable, but if yuo happen to build up a huge ignite before combusting, and get multiple huge combusts in 1 fight, your dps will vary by a lot. Delaying combust until your trinkets are procced and then building a big ignite with alter time is a good way to do huge combusts.
    First of all read the comments to the quote above you in this post.

    And for your post it is, it is exactly because fire is not relying on Rng that there is such a large differences in dps between mages. I am not using PoM and i always get at least 3+(4-5) !pyro combust when using alter time(every 2end combust) and 2/3 of the times i get 2+(3) when not using alter time.

    Of cause there is a difference in my combust dmg wether or not those !pyro's crit and in what order they do(if its first or last in the chain that crit) but that is MINOR rng, and all classes got that kind of rng.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    as you said the difference in 40% and 60% is indeed huge, the difference is not Rng though, its researching your spec and/or testing your self.
    I will tell you this much, there is a way to gain 2/3 of a chance to regain HS with 30% raid buffed crit. That is more than your 60% crit, and this is with a raid buffed crit around 31%. But really i dont want to explain this in yet another thread. Do your own research. so again its not Rng but knowledge of your spec and how to maximize it, some people would call that skill(not me).
    I think you're misunderstanding something. I'm saying that your crits with fireball have a snowball effect on your overall DPS, and fireball critting is completely RNG.
    Like I said though, its really not that big of a deal, I'm just arguing semantics because people like you keep saying that fire is not significantly effected by RNG which is NOT true.

    A good mage with bad RNG will still do pretty darn good damage, so this is a really pointless discussion.

  4. #64
    Though pyroblast is our nr1 damage spell. even without 2pc tier14. So increasing your number of HS per fight + !pyro's chained into combust is a large factor of doing better than other mages. Also notice im saying this is without PoM as most mages it seems are using that giving up on their movement dps witch there is a lot of(and yes blink is a dps decrease), when PoM is not needed if you know how to play properly.

    It is not true that rng is a big factor for fire mages. Its on par with every other class. I have maybe 1 "bad" rng wipe/kill per 2 raids.

    your arguing semantics, im arguing proper play and min/maxing your toon.
    Last edited by stX3; 2012-11-09 at 05:41 PM.

  5. #65
    To be honest, it seems to me that you're only arguing for the sake of arguing.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    Though pyroblast is our nr1 damage spell. even without 2pc tier14. So increasing your number of HS per fight + !pyro's chained into combust is a large factor of doing better than other mages. Also notice im saying this is without PoM as most mages it seems are using that giving up on their movement dps witch there is a lot of(and yes blink is a dps decrease), when PoM is not needed if you know how to play properly.

    It is not true that rng is a big factor for fire mages. Its on par with every other class. I have maybe 1 "bad" rng wipe/kill per 2 raids.

    your arguing semantics, im arguing proper play and min/maxing your toon.
    What are you even talking about?

    1) obviously increasing HS, pyros, bigger combusts is a big factor of your damage, dont know why you're mentioning this
    2) wonderful, you can chain 4 pyros into combustion without PoM, but can you do it reliably on demand to not waste combustion uptime without PoM? No, you can't. You're not some special snowflake that knows a secret about fire that nobody else knows.
    3) -misread
    4) rng wipe/kill ?! what on earth are you talking about, I'm talking about doing a bit less damage, NOTHING to do with wiping or dying.
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2012-11-09 at 09:36 PM. Reason: dun goofed

  7. #67
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    The playstyles are different, so I'm not sure why RNG is the topic of debate here.

    Pick whichever suits your playstyle the most. Fire, honestly, is probably the better intro spec to raids. If your raid group is a little less cohesive or relies on you to maintain higher numbers while learning a fight-- fire will probably do better.

    It's harder to get results with frost. WoL proves that. Every other mage I've played with proves that. Arcane is God mode, and it's way too hard for me to juggle that spec on progression. Just do whichever works best for you. The devs have worked very hard to remove min/max, and the proof that it has worked are all of these threads and all of these egos.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    What are you even talking about?

    1) obviously increasing HS, pyros, bigger combusts is a big factor of your damage, dont know why you're mentioning this
    2) wonderful, you can chain 4 pyros into combustion without PoM, but can you do it reliably on demand to not waste combustion uptime without PoM? No, you can't. You're not some special snowflake that knows a secret about fire that nobody else knows.
    3) saying blink is a dps increase is just wrong. Blink is only a dps increase if a) you dont have scorch b) theres no secondary target to attack c) its going to take you a full GCD (or more obviously) to run to a location in which you can attack. I'm not saying blink isnt a great spell - it is - but your comment makes no sense.
    4) rng wipe/kill ?! what on earth are you talking about, I'm talking about doing a bit less damage, NOTHING to do with wiping or dying.
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    (and yes blink is a dps decrease)
    Why are you posting when you clearly lack the skills to read.

    Maybe this is why you still insist to show your ignorance. Yes i can do 3+ consistently. Again read what i wrote. Or better yet go find the 2 threads on this very forum were i have explained your "special snowflake", i have also posted a comment in the EJ compendium, and Elpadrino293 made the first original post about this pre MoP launch. Btw on EJ your post gets infracted and possible removed for bad grammar, what do you think they do to wrongful posts?

    And no i am far from the only one knowing it, though when people scream fire rng i am sure they dont. I would explain it again here if i thought it would get through your thick skull, i am tired of having to explain it over and over again. And apparently doing your own research is hard.
    And btw I am not saying PoM is bad for all fights but it is for a majority of fights and that it is over rated. Any way that was not the point i was making.

    ill give you the wipe/kill could be unclear, i meant one time doing a try on boss. or in other words it happens one single time in aprox 2 raids.

    So please stop spending your time here, and go research. I will stop it here.
    Last edited by stX3; 2012-11-09 at 09:20 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    Why are you posting when you clearly lack the skills to read.

    Maybe this is why you still insist to show your ignorance. Yes i can do 3+ consistently. Again read what i wrote. Or better yet go find the 2 threads on this very forum were i have explained your "special snowflake", i have also posted a comment in the EJ compendium, and Elpadrino293 made the first original post about this pre MoP launch. Btw on EJ your post gets infracted and possible removed for bad grammar, what do you think they do to wrongful posts?

    And no i am far from the only one knowing it, though when people scream fire rng i am sure they dont. I would explain it again here if i thought it would get through your thick skull, i am tired of having to explain it over and over again. And apparently doing your own research is hard.
    And btw I am not saying PoM is bad for all fights but it is for a majority of fights and that it is over rated. Any way that was not the point i was making.

    ill give you the wipe/kill could be unclear, i meant one time doing a try on boss. or in other words it happens one single time in aprox 2 raids.

    So please stop spending your time here, and go research. I will stop it here.
    I think you frazzled me by jumping in and talking about combustion when i was NOT talking about combustion at all. In fact i specifically said that combustion is not RNG anymore, but fire still has a relatively high RNG swing. Yes I misread what you said about blink, and in fact I misread what you said about combustion as well (I thought you said 3+ pyros *without* AT, when you actually said 2+). So, I appologize for the misunderstanding.

  10. #70
    So how do you describe 25 fireballs without a single crit with 23% crit, decent gear. If that is not shitty RNG, what is it then.

  11. #71
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Yeah but try casting 1000 Fireballs and you'll see different results. Try casting 10000 Fireballs and you'll probably have 22-24% Fireball crits. Then try casting 100000 Fireballs.

    The margin of error increases on smaller samples, statistical deviations are more significant and the results are practically irrelevant. Of your 25 Fireballs, statistically 5 should have been crits (well, 5.75 but they haven't implemented partial crits yet :P). Five is such a small number that it is statistically perfectly fine that they are not crits. I assume that you posted that more out of frustration than anything else, but just because you have 23% crit, it doesn't mean that every fifth Fireball will be a crit. It doesn't even mean that it *should* be a crit. But given a large enough sample, the number of crits will be closer to 23%.

    Now, on a less serious note - Yes, I know the feeling and I really hate it, but worse things can happen. Dead DPS do even less damage than Fire mages not critting (although it sometimes feels the same).

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by raffie View Post
    So how do you describe 25 fireballs without a single crit with 23% crit, decent gear. If that is not shitty RNG, what is it then.
    Its apparently not RNG according to the Lord of fire mages which with his infinite badassery and posts on EJ and can't even rank high even tho he controls the behavior of crits in this realm.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    What?! 10-15k dps?! You are crazy! The difference between frost and fire is SO little infact I have BEATEN EVERY FIRE MAGE I have gone against as frost AND some have had better gear! And I know some of them we're good players. You are crazy.


    The sims all show frost ahead, so if fire is ahead it is by very little. And ffb procs aren't rng related when you use frost bomb..They're 100% at the end. VERY predictable. You aren't playing frost correctly.
    Simc doesnt have frost ahead but if it makes you feel better then good for you! lol.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Its apparently not RNG according to the Lord of fire mages which with his infinite badassery and posts on EJ and can't even rank high even tho he controls the behavior of crits in this realm.
    I bet you do the best damage around and know everything, eh?

    You can have all your frostbolts not crit, all your icelances and FFB hit the small non-crit window, and never have your FFB get procced from LB or NT, and all of these things will hurt your damage pretty severely.

    Yes you can get shafted for small periods during a fight for fire, but the longer the fight goes on it will even out and end up near expected damage, which is a huge improvement over cata.
    Last edited by Schizophreni; 2012-11-10 at 08:12 PM.

  15. #75
    I lvled in frost, and thought it was awesome that the spec now seemed viable for PVE (lvled mostly in dungeons)..but after about a week at 90 and getting geared i still found better dps in fire, may be that im used to fire but they lowered the RNG of the spec so much, while I liked the burst in frost I still found too much down time for my liking while fire is constantly boom boom 'splode joy
    Whoops, sig too big

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizophreni View Post
    I bet you do the best damage around and know everything, eh?

    You can have all your frostbolts not crit, all your icelances and FFB hit the small non-crit window, and never have your FFB get procced from LB or NT, and all of these things will hurt your damage pretty severely.

    Yes you can get shafted for small periods during a fight for fire, but the longer the fight goes on it will even out and end up near expected damage, which is a huge improvement over cata.
    Yes because I said all that stuff bout me being the best and knowing all of the hur durs.
    If frost gets bad luck with crits its a dmg loss, well yeah duh, but if fire gets bad rng its not only less immediate dmg from the spells that didn't crit, it also means a low combustion, unless you delay the cd until some chain crits happen.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Yes because I said all that stuff bout me being the best and knowing all of the hur durs.
    If frost gets bad luck with crits its a dmg loss, well yeah duh, but if fire gets bad rng its not only less immediate dmg from the spells that didn't crit, it also means a low combustion, unless you delay the cd until some chain crits happen.
    You sure liked ragging on the other guy.


    For the general sentiment of this thread, I would say it's because Frost's main stat relies on you getting every cast in while fire has the benefit of its main stat just making your casts do more damage.
    Last edited by Schizophreni; 2012-11-11 at 03:02 AM.

  18. #78
    Stood in the Fire rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    Didn't know normal mode mattered.
    seeing as many ppl can't get out of normal mode, guess what wise ass, it does.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 03:13 AM ----------

    to the OP, frost sims behind fire because out of all the bosses this tier so far, none are patchwerk fights, where frost "may" perform better than fire, however, in reality, frost is inferior, and this is partly why all the top parses are fire, also, fire has now become alot more predictable in terms of the overall output u can do, so it is favoured for this reason. and finally, just gonna say it, u likely don't know all the in's and out's of playing fire, if u are suddenly doing alot worse, practice and time investment play a big part in performance, so if u have not played fire in a very long time, chances are u are messing stuff up that somebody who has played fire for a very long time, probably won't have done, and viceversa, so don't try and act so high and mighty that there is nothing u can be taught as it is likely this reason that u are failing right now, nothing to do with the spec or gear (myabe a little bit but without an armoury/logs can't really comment).

  19. #79
    frost is btter, however im staying fire coz frost for pve is retarded

  20. #80
    Just judging from the Data posted on here, http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Will_of_t...0/14/60/p75/#3 . Fire is less RNG than Frost and even less "skill dependent" Judging from the DPS GAP different which is gets smaller as better the DPS results get (may also be a matter of gear // i ignored the extremely lucky fire trys). So if you are close to your firemages both of you are probably very descent players but you are better. So to your point with doing less dmg with fire, you are doing something wrong.

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