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  1. #81
    you cannot compare frost with fire on WotE 10 man heroic.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    you cannot compare frost with fire on WotE 10 man heroic.
    This pretty much, WotE is the only fight frost is even close..

  3. #83
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Pop your HS Pyro and your PoM Pyro (and if you get lucky, an additional 1-2 pyros from more Hot Streaks). Pop Alter Time and rinse/repeat this line. Combust when out of instant Pyros.
    Dat feel when not a single Pyro of those 4 crits and you don't know whether to Combust anyway or just safe it and hope for one big pyro crit with Trinket + Enchant procs..

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    This pretty much, WotE is the only fight frost is even close..
    Frost shouldnt't be close on WoTE unless tunnelling bosses the entire fight, and even then fire should be higher via multidotting. Feng is an easy example of where they SHOULD be close.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Frost shouldnt't be close on WoTE unless tunnelling bosses the entire fight, and even then fire should be higher via multidotting. Feng is an easy example of where they SHOULD be close.
    my Fire dps would rank 11 in frost rankings, yet i am 1.5k dps from rank 199 as fire. and i am even the one doing soak stuns, in earthquake phase.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    Dat feel when not a single Pyro of those 4 crits and you don't know whether to Combust anyway or just safe it and hope for one big pyro crit with Trinket + Enchant procs..
    If you have a 1.1 - 1.5s GCD one crit pyro will get you nearly the same ignite damage as 3 non crit pyros in a row. As of 5.1 that fourth pyro doesnt even matter because ignite will have rolled the first pyro off already. On live, you should pretty much just combust anyway with 3-4 non-crits.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 08:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    my Fire dps would rank 11 in frost rankings, yet i am 1.5k dps from rank 199 as fire. and i am even the one doing soak stuns, in earthquake phase.
    My point is that even on fights where they should be close (like feng) they arent, therefore fire is in practice performing a lot better than frost.

    Why, I dont know. The last sims I saw showed frost and fire as nearly identical dps, but that's just not how its playing out in reality.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Raidbots is aggregate. I'm tired of people presenting raidsbots in the wrong context. It happens in my guild all the time.

    Frost could have an upper level potential of 5% above fire. However, if 80% of frost mages play at 2/3 their maximum potential, the logs will reflect a number much lower than fire if fire mages are playing at a higher potential.

    Raidbots is something you present as a reflection of how well mages are playing their spec at any given time.

    Fire is easy to learn, and in many situations has a yield (if RNG favors you) of an upper limit above frost. Nearly all mages don't have set bonuses yet either, which makes all conclusions very premature. Frost is a bit tougher, and honestly not the spec for a lot of people. There are less of us, and we are still figuring a lot out.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-04 at 01:11 PM ----------



    What's up with your sig man?

    29th percentile on Feng Heroic. 69,448 dps as a fire mage isn't remotely good. I did 10k higher than that as frost and I think I did a rubbish job.
    There are lots of options with regards to how you view the data. Fire is just ahead on average, and by no small means either. It doesn't matter if you look at the median, average, 99th percentile or w/e. Its just ahead.

  8. #88
    Bloodsail Admiral Kiry's Avatar
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    I spent a lot of time with both specs this weekend, and I feel like an earlier poster is correct. Frost is more consistent narrower range of damage, fire has a much broader range of possibility. You can have the shit luck which equals "ok" damage or you can have good luck with stellar dps.
    I went with Frost because I'm more confortable with pushing my luck in my 10 man with abilities, but I also know that very soon (with a piece of gear or 2) I'll be switching to fire because overall the damage is higher.
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  9. #89
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    Fire Damage and DPS are higher than Frost and easier to achieve. Approx. 30 - 35% are direct damage, rest is dot. Everytime you have to move, or multiple targets, fire starts to move ahead. Fire scales way better with damage multipliers and is less vulnerable to damage reduction. On Feng, I really can´t effort to cast an ice lance or BFF during epicenter, and my dps goes down each epi. With fire, I loss less dmg (Dots seem to miss less than direct dmg, maybe dots doesn´t miss when applied bevor the boss cast).
    One of the most annoying things is proc from Trinkets, Enchants. On single target fights, Frost Bomb is the strongest choice of all magebombs. But it has only 1 tick every 8 - 10s (depending on haste). At the beginning of the fight with Frost, I pray for proc before using AT (Relic, Jadeserpent, Lightweave etc.). Last Night on Garajal heroic, my burst during BL (beginng of the fight) swayed from 240k peak to 170k peak and 150k to 110k at the end of BL.
    With fire, there is absolutely no problem: Jadesperpent, Lightweave and Relic (DMC) nearly proccing always together (same CD), and within a few second after beginng of the fight.

    Together with low procrates on Trinkets, Enchants etc, the low FoF procrate from Frostbolt and ~80% crit chance for FoF IL and BF FFB with current gear, frost become very RNG. The output on single target fights in a vacuum patchwerk enocunter is a little bit less than fire. There are ar sh**load of buttons to press compared to fire, more cooldowns and buffs to track, Alter Time more complicated and luck dependent (RNG) than fire and thanks to waterjet, we need another button and more to observe in an Raid environment, to squeeze a little bit more DPS out.

    Frost was very fun and challenging to play during cataclysm. The output was a little bit low - esp. T13. Now its too much and clunky. Not worth the trouble (particularly for heroic progression) compared to the result (DMG & DPS).

    Fire is really easy with the macro and ensures more dmg and dps, thats why there are so many fire mages out there. And for all those "don´t qq and spec fire" guys. I love frost, but the progress to that clunky spec really saddens me
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2012-11-13 at 11:20 AM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    (Dots seem to miss less than direct dmg, maybe dots doesn´t miss when applied bevor the boss cast).

    Alter Time more complicated and luck dependent (RNG) than fire and thanks to waterjet, we need another button and more to observe in an Raid environment, to squeeze a little bit more DPS out.

    Frost was very fun and challenging to play during cataclysm. The output was a little bit low - esp. T13. Now its too much and clunky. Not worth the trouble (particularly for heroic progression) compared to the result (DMG & DPS).
    dot ticks, once applied, cannot miss. How you can not know this and be talking about theorycrafting blows my mind.

    Alter time isnt complicated or luck-dependant for frost

    water jet shouldnt be any harder to use than freeze, I intend to macro it to the same key with a shift modifier

    frost outpit a "little" low in t13? frost was completely non-viable in t13. It is a little low now, but still viable.

  11. #91
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    Combustion with Fire blast. So much much for so little.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    dot ticks, once applied, cannot miss. How you can not know this and be talking about theorycrafting blows my mind.


    Alter time isnt complicated or luck-dependant for frost

    water jet shouldnt be any harder to use than freeze, I intend to macro it to the same key with a shift modifier

    frost outpit a "little" low in t13? frost was completely non-viable in t13. It is a little low now, but still viable.
    1. Maybe it´s because englisch is not my mother tongue, but that was, what I meant
    2. Extending 3 Procs, 2 Buffs, Racial + 1 Use with 1 Alter Time is a walk in the park for you? Resp. to the get the maximum out of that?
    3. Well, on that point u´ve right, but I downed all Cata heroic bosses as frost - even sinestra, was not fun at all.

  13. #93
    Alter Time for Frost is virtually identical as it is for Fire.
    For Frost you want 2x IL and BF, but once you have Brain Freeze you can force both of those procs with Freeze and Frozen Orb.
    The RNG lies in waiting for Brain Freeze

    For Fire you want Hot Streak and Heating Up.
    You can force Hot Streak with Inferno Blast, then you need to wait for another crit to get Heating Up.

  14. #94
    Always play what you like/feel comfortable with unless it was frost pve in cata.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    1. Maybe it´s because englisch is not my mother tongue, but that was, what I meant
    2. Extending 3 Procs, 2 Buffs, Racial + 1 Use with 1 Alter Time is a walk in the park for you? Resp. to the get the maximum out of that?
    3. Well, on that point u´ve right, but I downed all Cata heroic bosses as frost - even sinestra, was not fun at all.
    sorry I'm a mean SOB sometimes :P
    Alter time is a walk in the park for me but its worth noting that every single aspect of my user interface is completely customized which makes a big difference for things like that

    The most annoying thing is lining it up with my alchemy trinket because either I take it off pre-pull, and then its on ICD, or I leave it on prepull and evocate procs it and wastes half the duration
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2012-11-13 at 05:15 PM.

  16. #96
    i didnt see an armory link dont know if i over looked or if u never did it, but here is my point of 2 sence. fire while in blue's and greens are unconsitant with their dps and damage one fight u will be doin 30k the next u will be doing 75k or whatever im just giving examples not actual numbers, anyhow fire spec so far is mostly based on your gear, if u dont have the gear for fire u will never have good consistancy or dmg, so it appears frost is better untill u get better gear than u will see fire is better.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by phirx View Post
    i didnt see an armory link dont know if i over looked or if u never did it, but here is my point of 2 sence. fire while in blue's and greens are unconsitant with their dps and damage one fight u will be doin 30k the next u will be doing 75k or whatever im just giving examples not actual numbers, anyhow fire spec so far is mostly based on your gear, if u dont have the gear for fire u will never have good consistancy or dmg, so it appears frost is better untill u get better gear than u will see fire is better.
    With Pre-raid Bis(Blue 463+crafts) Fire was FAR superior to frost the first two weeks, and that havent changed much with current gear.
    Of cause if your just hit 90 and have greens it might be closer, but really we should not discuss anything at those ilvl because its pointless.

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