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  1. #41
    Actually on reviewing the thread, you haven't really. Your assessment that dungeons are lesser versions of raids, while factually true, is a bit goading, as is the toolbox comment, but you've been on the receiving end of some undeserved punishment in this thread, imo.

    And you are correct that it is a damage increase to apply expose armor, especially if it is glyphed, depending on your raid comp, and often in dungeons. While damage doesn't matter much on "heroic" 5 mans, it's still correct play to press expose armor, especially if the rest of the team is not smart enough to do so. I'm even finding several situations in a raid where it is good to do so- for instance, pillars on Elegon, the front leg of Garalon (the prot warrior is in the back there, and he's arms), the Strength of the Emperor, the Courage of the Emperor, any stone dog I'm on and the prot warrior isn't (aka, when our pally has them), and the mage when he gets MCed on the first boss of HoF because ha-ha I totally got you mage! I don't ALWAYS press these buttons (I don't on courage because it dies so fast and is mostly caster dps), but the option is there when I remember it, and unlike cata and the five minute fairy fire, it's not free to have the resto druid do so like before.

  2. #42
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Also, working, have Pokemon White 2 and BF3 on the go as well as a girlfriend to support. I probably define casual (and many would probably define me as "bad" instead/as well).
    This thread has gone horribly off-topic, so I will continue the trend: Refrain from posting unless you have good evidence then? If as you say are "casual" then I doubt you've had time to run sims/logs to get to the answers you post.

    I for one am fed up of looking at the forums and seeing 10,000 posts by people who have absolutely no evidence and are usually wrong.

  3. #43
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Refrain from posting unless you have good evidence then?
    OK:

    From Ask Mr. Robot's Assassination Rogue weights (because they're at least ballpark):
    MHDPS: 4.35
    OHDPS: 1.04
    Agility: 4.74
    Hit: 3.13 to soft cap, 0.75 after (or ~1.42 throughout*)
    Expertise: 2 to soft cap (or 1 throughout*)
    Mastery: 1.95
    Strength: 1.8
    Haste: 1.75
    AP: 1.71
    Crit: 1.7
    For PvP, the value of Hit goes down to ~1.07 throughout*, Expertise to 0.4 throughout*, PvP Resilience is 4.73 and PvP Power 4.72. Haste is the second best secondary stat, so if anything, get out of Crit into Haste (given a Mastery/Crit item).

    Assassination clearly uses more than 3 buttons.

    Unless you have a Guardian Druid in your party/raid that really wants Mangle all the time, then you're the next-best person to put up Weakened Armor with Glyphed Expose Armor.

    *I'm using these values in Pawn for my character, as there is potential benefit (and loss) in being not Hit- and not Expertise-capped: a missed Envenom deals no damage but grants you the Envenom buff, whilst also costing you no combo points. This makes chain-Envenoming slightly easier, but is offset by Dispatch procs missing (as they are consumed even if they miss and they don't grant a combo point).
    Last edited by Firebert; 2012-11-12 at 04:40 PM.
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  4. #44
    Err, all tanks that can apply it are better at weakened armor than us. A guardian druid or prot warrior should keep it up. In 5 mans they don't sometimes because often people in 5 mans are uninformed, incapable of math, hateful, or bad. But in a raid, your tank should apply it (it is a clear damage loss to the raid if he does not), assuming it's one of the tanks that has that debuff.

    After that, a dps warrior can glyph colo smash, and as that is already a rotational move, that is optimal. A feral druid can press fairy fire resource free once every 30 seconds with a spare global at no damage loss. Hunters not bringing another buff can I think bring it at no loss with a pet, if they have it. I believe rogues then fall into place with glyphed EA, and after that is balance druid? I could be missing something.

    But, the damage lost with a rogue isn't nearly what it used to be, and druids no longer have a FIVE MINUTE version of this buff, which was honestly never really fair.

  5. #45
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    A guardian druid or prot warrior should keep it up.
    We stack it faster than a Prot Warrior (1GCD to 3), and some Guardians won't all the time (as Mangle isn't at the top of the ability tree).

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    After that, a dps warrior can glyph colo smash
    Colossus Smash only affects the Warrior's abilities, not the raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    A feral druid can press fairy fire resource free once every 30 seconds with a spare global at no damage loss.
    Fair enough. Depends on how GCD capped Ferals are nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Hunters not bringing another buff can I think bring it at no loss with a pet, if they have it.
    Takes a Hunter pet 12s to get three stacks, whereas we only take 1s (or 3s unglyphed).
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  6. #46
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    OK:

    From Ask Mr. Robot's Assassination Rogue weights (because they're at least ballpark):
    MHDPS: 4.35
    OHDPS: 1.04
    Agility: 4.74
    Hit: 3.13 to soft cap, 0.75 after (or ~1.42 throughout*)
    Expertise: 2 to soft cap (or 1 throughout*)
    Mastery: 1.95
    Strength: 1.8
    Haste: 1.75
    AP: 1.71
    Crit: 1.7
    For PvP, the value of Hit goes down to ~1.07 throughout*, Expertise to 0.4 throughout*, PvP Resilience is 4.73 and PvP Power 4.72. Haste is the second best secondary stat, so if anything, get out of Crit into Haste (given a Mastery/Crit item).

    Assassination clearly uses more than 3 buttons.

    Unless you have a Guardian Druid in your party/raid that really wants Mangle all the time, then you're the next-best person to put up Weakened Armor with Glyphed Expose Armor.

    *I'm using these values in Pawn for my character, as there is potential benefit (and loss) in being not Hit- and not Expertise-capped: a missed Envenom deals no damage but grants you the Envenom buff, whilst also costing you no combo points. This makes chain-Envenoming slightly easier, but is offset by Dispatch procs missing (as they are consumed even if they miss and they don't grant a combo point).
    I'm a little tired so excuse the slowness, but I don't understand what those numbers prove? What comment is it a reply too?

    Also.. from your signature "If you see me posting numbers tell me to stop."

  7. #47
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    I'm a little tired so excuse the slowness, but I don't understand what those numbers prove? What comment is it a reply too?
    Reply to the OP, and they prove that Mastery > Haste.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    We stack it faster than a Prot Warrior (1GCD to 3), and some Guardians won't all the time (as Mangle isn't at the top of the ability tree).
    At the cost of 25 energy to the prot warrior's free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Colossus Smash only affects the Warrior's abilities, not the raids.
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=63481

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Fair enough. Depends on how GCD capped Ferals are nowadays.
    They are not even close to GCD capped. They have almost as many free GCDs as an assassination rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Takes a Hunter pet 12s to get three stacks, whereas we only take 1s (or 3s unglyphed).
    Again, at no cost to the hunter's dps but it costs the rogue at least 0.83 energy/sec to maintain the debuff.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-11-12 at 08:30 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    We stack it faster than a Prot Warrior (1GCD to 3),
    Not really relevant, being as it costs us damage but doesn't cost them much. I'm fairly confident for maximum raid dps, the prot warrior should apply it and you are lowering raid dps if you do it under those situations.

    and some Guardians won't all the time (as Mangle isn't at the top of the ability tree).
    The bear can press fairy fire. This costs him a global. You applying it costs you dps.

    Colossus Smash only affects the Warrior's abilities, not the raids.
    Glyphed Colossus Smash applies the sunder armor debuff, and the warrior is already using that ability at no dps loss.

    Fair enough. Depends on how GCD capped Ferals are nowadays.
    No it does not. Even if ferals were fully capped (which they are not), it would still be a bigger loss for YOU to apply it, because it costs energy when you do it, and costs nothing but the global for a feral.

    Takes a Hunter pet 12s to get three stacks, whereas we only take 1s (or 3s unglyphed).
    Unglyphed you should never even press the button. If you anticipate using it, glyph it. To figure out whether it's better to press it or not here, you'd have to look at damage with 1 stack, then damage with 2 stacks, right? I assume the raptor has a 6 second cooldown on it, right? You'd probably still come out ahead not pressing it, unless you want to do the math showing otherwise.

  10. #50
    As I said much much earlier, for any concerns of our applying a debuff sooner, for mobs which will survive, applying once and allowing the passive effect from someone else to continue is probably "ideal," but we're splitting hairs at this point. If we assume it's a RDPS gain to have all 3 stacks immediately, using EA is in fact an advantage an opening unless you've got a guardian druid handy. It stops being an advantage after that opening use, unless you have nothing else at all which can apply it for no loss of resources unless you're switching to new, short-lived targets.

    This is a summation of important information from the last two pages. Please don't waste time arguing the same points repeatedly.

  11. #51
    I dont see why anyone hasnt put a summary and a /thread yet...

    mastery > haste at all times for muti rogues (in this tier, hell knows what bliz will do next).
    And as for the weakened armor discussion. Use the spell if there is noone else using it in the raid, its a dps gain! and have it glyphed anyhow since there is no better alternative (unless you play combat with leeching then go glyph of flurry, but only if you can actually flurry). If there is someone else applying it, he loses less dps than you, so skip it (balance druid loses a gcd just like you but shouldnt ever get mana depleted, so the resource is worth less than our energy making us worse). If people who can use it dont because they fail, you should have it glyphed anyway so go ahead.

    The only other glyphs I see viable are cloak (if you dont have elusiveness, which would probably work out more anyhow) and kick on spirit kings. Otherwise, why the hell wouldnt you use EA ? That 0,5% on recup is hardly worth it if you look the uptime on any fight in WoL, you'd probably make up for that in less fight time through EA.

  12. #52
    So basically you will never want to use Expose armor in a 25 man but may have to in a 10 man due to party setup. And really saying raids are tuned down heroic dungeons...maybe if it's a tank and spank fight but fortunately most aren't like that.

  13. #53
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    You applying it costs you dps.
    We get a combo point out of it, so no.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
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    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    We get a combo point out of it, so no.
    Well with that logic you should be hitting EA over SS/Mut/Backstab all the time because you don't lose dps by spending energy on EA instead of those...

  15. #55
    Expose Armor: 25 energy = 1 CP, 0 damage
    Dispatch: 30 energy = 1.16 CP, 400% WD + 486
    Mutilate: 55 energy = 2.16 CP, 200% WDx2 + 223x2; 30% chance for free Dispatch
    (my crit chance is 16%. not worrying about extra mut crit chance)

    Just energy per CP, no damage calc:

    EA: 25/1 = 25
    Disp: 30/1.16 = 25.862
    Mut: 55/(2.16+(1.16/3)) = 21.597

    Mutilate is more efficient at generating CPs than Expose Armor, and Dispatch is very close. Mutilate and Dispatch do damage; EA does not. Other classes apply it at the cost of no resources or they apply it passively with other abilities they use in their rotation.

    The fact that it generates CPs now rather than consume them is just a bandaid. It's still better for other classes to do it.
    Last edited by Squirl; 2012-11-13 at 02:45 AM.

  16. #56
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    People using mutilate are bad! Well until the patch goes in at least, ST > Mutilate.
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    People using mutilate are bad! Well until the patch goes in at least, ST > Mutilate.
    Uh what... can you point me to a highly ranked log of a rogue doing that? Pretty sure that was looked at a while ago and the consensus was that it is not a gain (which did certainly have partially to do with the comparison actually being ST versus mut with anticipation).

  18. #58
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Hmm I cant find any talk on EJ about the topic at all, where is a good place to see the comparison?
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    Hmm I cant find any talk on EJ about the topic at all, where is a good place to see the comparison?
    So you threw around that statement like a fact and haven't actually seen anything on it...

  20. #60
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    So you threw around that statement like a fact and haven't actually seen anything on it...
    Why so serious.

    And I had read it, on EJ, but under the Sub section where they'd discussed it wasnt worth it for Sub but was most likely better for Assassination.
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