the solution to this brawlers guild nonsense

[Kaleredar]

Not unless I expect people to carry me, which is the very definition of entitled in my book.

But as you've pointed out yes it is an option. So is paying for the brawlers guild and taking the time to earn gold. I'm sure everyone will enjoy that as much as I've enjoyed doing my dailies!

Heroic dungeon gear doesn't make you "fundamentally unable to function in raids." The first people to clear Mogu'shan vaults weren't kicking it in full revered epics from every faction, simply because, well, they couldn't reach that point. And yet somehow they managed.

[Windfury]

Heroic dungeon gear doesn't make you "fundamentally unable to function in raids." The first people to clear Mogu'shan vaults weren't kicking it in full revered epics from every faction, simply because, well, they couldn't reach that point. And yet somehow they managed.

Heroic dungeon gear, in a raid where you're the only one in it, certainly fundamentally makes you a leech who expects your guildies to do all the work for you, as it makes you fundamentally unable to perform up to the standards of the other players in the raid. I'd consider that fundamentally unable to function, and I certainly wouldn't insult my guildmates by putting that kind of expectation on them.

However yes, as I've said before I could indeed choose to do that. Just as you can choose to save up and pay the cost to do what you want to do.

And really, comparing average guilds to world first guilds is ridiculous and you know it. Sure, world first guilds didn't need gear, they could do it naked, whatever, the fact is the majority of guilds are not world first guilds. Telling me to beat the content undergeared is about as sensible as me telling you the entry fee isn't an issue for you as you should simply be able to gold cap by Friday, because since I've made a million gold in a week before, it must be easily achievable for everyone right?

They're both options. They're both gated with things the people who want to participate don't like. It's the exact same design philosophy, and outrageously hypocritical to disagree with one and agree with the other.

[Imhotep]

Make it a random chance to drop from the bags the pet battler dailies give you.

[Shaede]

Well, the solution is to change that retarded one fight per faction per server bullshit nonsense. Seriously, that's fucking dumber than the BMAH invite.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Ina perfect world...sure everyone may wait in line and enjoy watching the same battles over and over again, as if they were watching it on youtube.

But... man I can see it now...poor guy is trying to concentrate on the fight meanwhile everyone on his server is yelling at him in the crowd "HURRY UP F****" "YOU SUCKS AT THIS GAME DIE ALREADY!" "YOURE SUCHA NOOB YOU SHOULD'VE POPPED ANTI MAGIC SHELL! GOD YOU SUCK HURRY UP" and probably worse..

This idea is ambitious, but I have no hope for it to be anything enjoyable.

[Deathgoose]

Make it into an independent instance for everyone.

Period.

They can do it with everyone's farm at Halfhill, but somehow, doing it for this new novelty stuff just breaks their brains.

[Kaleredar]

Heroic dungeon gear, in a raid where you're the only one in it, certainly fundamentally makes you a leech who expects your guildies to do all the work for you, as it makes you fundamentally unable to perform up to the standards of the other players in the raid. I'd consider that fundamentally unable to function, and I certainly wouldn't insult my guildmates by putting that kind of expectation on them.

The only one in it? So in essence, you and your guild have foregone raiding, though it was completely viable to do so in heroic dungeon gear, for these someodd weeks so you could grind up rep to get a handful of epic pieces, some of which might be quite poor performing for individual classes, just so you could walk in in mostly all purples your first time around so you could then begin to replace said purples?

It seems that you see the color purple and say "OMG! IT MUST BE REQUIRED!" Perhaps you need to differentiate between the words "Optimal" and "viable." Doing worse than your guild mates because they're in better gear than you does not mean you are "leeching" if your tanking, healing, DPSing, whatevering, is actually "viable" enough to fulfill that role.

However yes, as I've said before I could indeed choose to do that. Just as you can choose to save up and pay the cost to do what you want to do.

And really, comparing average guilds to world first guilds is ridiculous and you know it. Sure, world first guilds didn't need gear, they could do it naked, whatever, the fact is the majority of guilds are not world first guilds. Telling me to beat the content undergeared is about as sensible as me telling you the entry fee isn't an issue for you as you should simply be able to gold cap by Friday, because since I've made a million gold in a week before, it must be easily achievable for everyone right?

They're both options. They're both gated with things the people who want to participate don't like. It's the exact same design philosophy, and outrageously hypocritical to disagree with one and agree with the other.

It's not "hypocritical" unless we start to say requiring ANYTHING to prohibit people from doing whatever they want is "unnecessary gating..." like collecting dungeon gear, leveling to 90, etc. People just seem to see a dissolution between something based on personal effort requiring paying vast amounts of money to someone simply because they can make you. I'm sure you would love it if they made it so ALL the heroic gear sold on the BMAH became BOE so that people could snag them for the soul purpose of then selling them to others, right?

Oh hey, it'd be another way to get gear that wouldn't require dailies! Right up your alley, apparently. Oh, but wait... with time and dedication, you could acquire that piece of gear through raiding... hmmm...

[neccowafer]

They can do it with everyone's farm at Halfhill, but somehow, doing it for this new novelty stuff just breaks their brains.

They're hoping it'll be fun to watch, like watching a wrestling match. Some reason to know or care about people on my server would be nice, but not sure how it'll work out yet. So few people will actually have an invite that the one fight at a time thing won't be a big deal, at least at first. Though later when more people have invites, more people will have stopped because they already have their achievements, I suppose.

It'll only be interesting to watch if the fights are very hard and dynamic.

If someone sucks apparently we'll be able to do more than just yell at them, we'll be able to sit around throwing shit at them.

[facerollin]

The BMAH is a great idea, eventually the invites among players can only double daily(I assume you can invite someone daily), you wont have access on day one but you will eventually.

Chill out. You will get it eventually.

[Deleted]

You can't change anything without destroying what the Brawler's Guild is supposed to be. If everybody just gets in and you can have more than 1 fight per server per faction, everybody is just going to go in at day 1, defeat all challenges and be done with it. Everybody is just gonna burst through the content and it loses that whole fight club feel.

[Kaleredar]

The BMAH is a great idea, eventually the invites among players can only double daily(I assume you can invite someone daily), you wont have access on day one but you will eventually.

Chill out. You will get it eventually.

A lot of things happen "eventually."

Unfortunately, this point of eventuality for most people will come at a time when the entire purpose of limiting the number of people entering because the queue system can't effectively sort through them all has been completely defeated anyway, as nigh every max level character on the server will have entrance, and the dozens-of-individuals queue commences anyway. Above all else, this system is self defeating... other than making yet another fight club reference, and lining the pockets of the top guild on each server for the first couple weeks, I can see no reason for this implementation.

[Windfury]

It seems that you see the color purple and say "OMG! IT MUST BE REQUIRED!" Perhaps you need to differentiate between the words "Optimal" and "viable." Doing worse than your guild mates because they're in better gear than you does not mean you are "leeching" if your tanking, healing, DPSing, whatevering, is actually "viable" enough to fulfill that role.

It's not "hypocritical" unless we start to say requiring ANYTHING to prohibit people from doing whatever they want is "unnecessary gating..." like collecting dungeon gear, leveling to 90, etc. People just seem to see a dissolution between something based on personal effort requiring paying vast amounts of money to someone simply because they can make you.

I completely acknowledge that choosing not to hold my guild back is my choice, so I'm not sure why you're still harping on about it trying to justify why I should be ok with screwing them over. I'm not. It's my choice, I've chosen. The fact is though, that accessing the brawlers guild is just as optional and just as much of a choice. I could just as easily sit here and tell you to stop complaining and go make some money because it's not that hard etc etc.

It is hypocritical because it is *exactly* the same philosophy just applied to different content. By all means like both or object to both, but trying to have it both ways is completely illogical.

I'm sure you would love it if they made it so ALL the heroic gear sold on the BMAH became BOE so that people could snag them for the soul purpose of then selling them to others, right?

Oh hey, it'd be another way to get gear that wouldn't require dailies! Right up your alley, apparently. Oh, but wait... with time and dedication, you could acquire that piece of gear through raiding... hmmm...

Yes, I'd be fine with that, however I'm not sure why it's relevant?

As I've already repeatedly stated I've exercised my choice to not be an ass and hold my guild back for selfish reasons. That means I can't in fact raid for the gear. So again I'm not sure what relevant point you're actually trying to make.

[Moradim]

actually

why not just make a really hard 1 player scenario?

beat it, and you are in.

[Kaleredar]

I completely acknowledge that choosing not to hold my guild back is my choice, so I'm not sure why you're still harping on about it trying to justify why I should be ok with screwing them over. I'm not. It's my choice, I've chosen. The fact is though, that accessing the brawlers guild is just as optional and just as much of a choice.

...except you ignored everything I just said. You restated a point which I refuted.

I could just as easily sit here and tell you to stop complaining and go make some money because it's not that hard etc etc.

I'm actually fairly confident I have the gold to eek my way into the brawler's guild in the first couple of weeks. I am able to acknowledge, however, that other people that are committed to soloing content, as the Brawler's guild ascribes to, may not have this opportunity. Furthermore, it also doesn't make me unable to see what a terrible design choice this is.

Yes, I'd be fine with that, however I'm not sure why it's relevant?

Great, now imagine if the only way to acquire this heroic gear, in order to do heroic raids, was contending with asshats camping the BMAH who are gunning to sell the gear to you instead. Good design? I think not.

As I've already repeatedly stated I've exercised my choice to not be an ass and hold my guild back for selfish reasons. That means I can't in fact raid for the gear. So again I'm not sure what relevant point you're actually trying to make.

I'm not sure what point you're again trying to make in the face of the point you failed to refute

[Windfury]

...except you ignored everything I just said. You restated a point which I refuted.



I'm actually fairly confident I have the gold to eek my way into the brawler's guild in the first couple of weeks. I am able to acknowledge, however, that other people that are committed to soloing content, as the Brawler's guild ascribes to, may not have this opportunity. Furthermore, it also doesn't make me unable to see what a terrible design choice this is.


Great, now imagine if the only way to acquire this heroic gear, in order to do heroic raids, was contending with asshats camping the BMAH who are gunning to sell the gear to you instead. Good design? I think not.


I'm not sure what point you're again trying to make in the face of the point you failed to refute

Your posts are completely incoherent at this point, and you're clearly just trying to be an ass for the sake of it. I am being completely genuine when I say that your point is not coming across clearly, and is being further confused by irrelevant side issues, which still appears to be all you're replying on. I seriously don't know what point you're trying to make that adds anything to this discussion. You could have chosen to explain more clearly or been an ass, congratulations on picking option 2. I guess it's at least apparent now why you're struggling to understand the logical inconsistency of your opinions.

[Kaleredar]

Your posts are completely incoherent at this point, and you're clearly just trying to be an ass for the sake of it. I am being completely genuine when I say that your point is not coming across clearly, and is being further confused by irrelevant side issues, which still appears to be all you're replying on.

Perhaps I should make it more clear for you.

Perhaps you need to differentiate between the words "Optimal" and "viable." Doing worse than your guild mates because they're in better gear than you does not mean you are "leeching" if your tanking, healing, DPSing, whatevering, is actually "viable" enough to fulfill that role.

In this statement I've basically asserted that one is not "holding back" their guild if an individual's performance is otherwise acceptable enough, i.e, your DPS is acceptable, you are adequately tanking, your healing is keeping everyone alive without undue stress. Something that is entirely possible with heroic dungeon gear. How do I know? Because people actually did it in that.

To which you respond "I don't want to hold back my guild."

Which is, in essence, saying nothing further on the point.

Great, now imagine if the only way to acquire this heroic gear, in order to do heroic raids, was contending with asshats camping the BMAH who are gunning to sell the gear to you instead. Good design? I think not.

Now it IS true I didn't spell it out point blank, but yes, this strain I was building up is tying a parallel between what would be an otherwise unacceptable method of acquiring the only viable means to do something otherwise unrelated to the method in which it is acquired. Heroic raiding gear bought from/monopolized by players, entrance into the brawlers guild bought from/monopolized by players. So in fact I was tying this into your nice little branch of "anti-hypocrisy" here, contrasting a system of unilaterally acquiring entrance into a branch of content (in this case the brawler's guild) with how access into content is actually laid out (in this case heroic raiding,) while simultaneously branding you as a hypocrite as you champion a system of unilateral entrance into the brawlers guild while your own preferred content, raiding, has ways to enter beyond the dailies which you so disdain, a point that I have made, that you disagree with, and ultimately an assertion which, as I've said three times now, you've failed to negate.

Crystal clear now?

You could have chosen to explain more clearly or been an ass, congratulations on picking option 2.

Your earlier "spiteful for the sake of being spiteful" posts don't really give you the moral high ground to talk down to others.

[Windfury]

In this statement I've basically asserted that one is not "holding back" their guild if an individual's performance is otherwise acceptable enough, i.e, your DPS is acceptable, you are adequately tanking, your healing is keeping everyone alive without undue stress.

That is entirely a matter of opinion. I disagree. It would not be acceptable to me to have people doing less than they are capable of. Perhaps I hold myself to a higher standard, or simply respect my guildmates more than you do, but either way I do and no amount of telling me I shouldn't will change my mind. I treat people how I wish to be treated, and I would not be impressed if someone turned up who hadn't made the effort to get the gear and expected me to cover their lower performance, so as I haven't been able to do so yet I myself haven't raided.

Something that is entirely possible with heroic dungeon gear. How do I know? Because people actually did it in that.

To which you respond "I don't want to hold back my guild."

Which is, in essence, saying nothing further on the point.

Yes, people did it in that. Yes we have gone over this before, so again, I'm not sure why you're still bringing this up.

Either a) they were in a much better guild than mine (I believe we've already discussed how pointless it is to hold all guilds to the standards of world first guilds), or b) they simply had a lot more time to put in. Not all guilds are the same. My guild struggles as it is to find raid times that suit, and we need to get everything possible out of that time we have (3 hours a week is a very good week for us). Wasting my guildmates time is the most offensive and disrespectful thing I could do, and I would not feel (or be) right to do that, nor would I be impressed if any of them did the same to me.

This is why it's a matter of opinion and circumstance. What you see as reasonable is not always going to be for somebody else. And that's fine. What is pointless is you constantly arguing and arguing that things should be other than what they are for someone else. It isn't your call to make. I entirely acknowledge that it's my choice, so I don't see why you're still going back to this.

Now it IS true I didn't spell it out point blank, but yes, this strain I was building up is tying a parallel between what would be an otherwise unacceptable method of acquiring the only viable means to do something otherwise unrelated to the method in which it is acquired. Heroic raiding gear bought from/monopolized by players, entrance into the brawlers guild bought from/monopolized by players. So in fact I was tying this into your nice little branch of "anti-hypocrisy" here, contrasting a system of unilaterally acquiring entrance into a branch of content (in this case the brawler's guild) with how access into content is actually laid out (heroic raiding,) while simultaneously branding you as a hypocrite as you champion a system of unilateral entrance into the brawlers guild while your own preferred content, raiding, has ways to enter beyond the dailies which you so disdain, a point that I have made, that you disagree with, and ultimately an assertion which, as I've said three times now, you've failed to negate.

Crystal clear now?

Ok, so I was meant to object to having gear sellable by players? Well as above I don't have any problems with that. As I've also repeatedly stated, not just in this thread but across the discussion on questing, I think the means of entrance should be in some way related to the end goal. Dailies are not related to raiding, I think it's ridiculous to tie them together, but if they're going to ridiculously tie two unrelated things together as a means of access to one thing, then it makes perfect sense for them to do so as a means of access to other things. What I don't understand is people who think it's fine in the scenario that doesn't affect them personally, but a problem in the scenario where it does.

And no it isn't crystal clear. English is not my first language and you appear to be trying to make your writing as dense and incomprehensible as possible because you believe it makes you appear more intelligent. It actually just makes you harder to follow.

Your earlier "spiteful for the sake of being spiteful" posts don't really give you the moral high ground to talk down to others.

I quite seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

[mysticx]

You can't change anything without destroying what the Brawler's Guild is supposed to be. If everybody just gets in and you can have more than 1 fight per server per faction, everybody is just going to go in at day 1, defeat all challenges and be done with it. Everybody is just gonna burst through the content and it loses that whole fight club feel.

So... the "Fight club feel" is standing in line waiting for your turn? I haven't seen the "Fight club"-movie, but i'm nonetheless quite sure it's not about queueing up waiting for a fight...

[Deleted]

Stop crying about it. If invites are posted everyday then eventually the price will come down, especially if the rewards aren't that great.

[Glorious Leader]

So... the "Fight club feel" is standing in line waiting for your turn? I haven't seen the "Fight club"-movie, but i'm nonetheless quite sure it's not about queueing up waiting for a fight...

It wasn't. It also wasn't about exclusive access to things based on wealth, in fact it was all about tearing down that particular established order.

[Z3ROR]

I think BMAH doesn't work for this, because if you haven't any friends or gold you'll never can do the Brawler's Guild.

I prefer a combination of the small questchain in combination with a invite by mail system. I've worked out the idea.

To start with my Brawler's guild invite, you have to go to the Black Market Auction House area. There is a guy sitting on the floor.
He says: "Bah!?....This market has nothing else then weird stuff. I know a place where they doesn't need all this. A fighting ring. You look as someone that would fit in that place. Interested?"

Quest objective: "Visit the guy's contact in Stormwind/Orgrimmar."



Contact says: "What do you want? You got sent by the guy? Well i can tell you much, but there is hidden fighting ring somewhere here in Stormwind/Ogrimmar."

Quest objective: "Find someone in the city who can tell you more about this fighting ring."
Check any NPC in the city that isn't an vendor or trainer. Guards doesn't know anything. Do this until you find someone that reveals he knows something. This is a random character in the city.

Revealed person says: "Yes, i know a place that match your description. But noone can go in. You need to be invited."
You: "Can you invite me?"
Revealed person says: "I can do that, but i can refuse too. I will sent you information when the time is ready to invite you."

Now a mail-system is activated. Every week you get a mail with a random codeword. You must tell this code to the first guy who gave your first quest at the Black Market Auction House. When the guy verifies your code you can enter the Brawler's Guild, otherwise you have to wait until next weeks mail and try again.