Stone Guard needs nerfing

[Deleted]

I wish this thread could stay on topic rather having little flame wars between happily casuals, and hardcore egotistical ragers.

You know there's a private messaging system built-in to this forum / your account!

Apologies, I fear my happy acceptance of not being uber is irritating some folks, I'll knock it off (because I know they cant.)

[Choptimus]

What's a joke is your strenuous denials of how people really are. Give it up man.

I never claimed to be any good, doesnt bother me in the slightest. Why do you think it will?

If people stopped saying "Yeah I'm bad deal with it I play my game my way!!!" and started saying "I'm bad and need to improve, help me get better, what am I missing? WHY AM I BAD?!" then we'd have such a wonderfully high skilled playerbase that people wouldn't cry and beg for nerfs of the FIRST BOSS in the FIRST RAID of the FIRST TIER of a new expansion, like a month after release... WHEN THEY HAVE LFR.

LOL.

Edit: Racetime. Stay shit, PM me if you need advice/help.

x0x0x

[Deleted]

If people stopped saying "Yeah I'm bad deal with it I play my game my way!!!" and started saying "I'm bad and need to improve, help me get better, what am I missing? WHY AM I BAD?!" then we'd have such a wonderfully high skilled playerbase that people wouldn't cry and beg for nerfs of the FIRST BOSS in the FIRST RAID of the FIRST TIER of a new expansion, like a month after release... WHEN THEY HAVE LFR.

LOL.

Edit: Racetime. Stay shit, PM me if you need advice/help.

x0x0x

I've Pm'd you, offering you help with your negativity.

Sorry for disturbing the thread, folks.

[kenshinag]

Jeez, there's a lot of angry people in this thread.

Anyway, imho I don't think it should be nerfed. I get that it's a tough fight, took well over 3 hours for my guild to get it the first night we stepped in there. The next reset was much better though, 3 shot it. I blame our first attempt on every caster and our rogue thinking that cata legendaries should still be used. After a full week of 463 gearing it was dramatically easier. I like the challenge of the fight.

I understand that a lot of the concerns are that the first bosses of normal raids used to be really easy, and this was the case for magmaw, halfus, shannox, and morchok (and technically every boss til ultra that first week). I don't have a link but I remember Blizzard saying that they were going to increase the difficulty of normal and heroic because if players don't want challenging content, they would have lfr. A massive amount of people felt burnt out from DS because they felt it to be too easy. Also for new players, they should be following this same train of thought and take a look at the fight in lfr first. It's like stating the first dungeon you run is challenge mode. They should be preparing themselves for the challenge and knowing the basics: rotation, gem/chant/reforges, talent/spec, professions, consumables, and having the gear that the encounters were tuned towards. Before I stepped into MSV (2nd week of mop) I was at 463 ilvl. All you should be learning in normal mode raids and above, are the fight mechanics and how to play your class in these specific situations.

[Scinder]

Nothing in the Stoneguard fight is particularly hard to deal with. This fight is really aimed at being a tank and raid awareness check. If the tanks get the tank swap down, this fight should be a stroll in the park. Easiest fight in the instance IMO.

Jasper chains is just as easy to deal with as cobalt mines and amethyst pools. If a RDPS and RDPS are chained, leave it be. Don't break them. If a healer or RDPS is chained to a melee, the melee and RDPS/Healer need to not be retarded and understand that they have to look out for one another. People die from this because:

A.) DPS wants to go balls to the wall on the dogs without regard for their fellow player.
B.) Healer or RDPS doesn't understand that the melee needs to be on the boss as much as possible.

The melee need to remember that the ranged or healer is going to follow the dps but the dps needs to allow the healer or ranged to channel and navigate the other crap on the ground.

It's all about raid awareness and coordination. Stop making the fight harder than it is. Most people wiping to this are over thinking the fight.

This fight doesn't need a nerf at all. You need to pay attention to the mechanics and show some restraint. I hate to say the dreaded "l2p" but I think it actively applies here.

I'm a casual raider (4/6N). We raid one night per week. So far the only fight that has been a challenge has been Elegon and I believe once everyone understands the mechanics and we can get 5 draw powers down, the fight should be pretty simple.

[Fiercon]

I really appreciate laughing on other people's skills /irony.

My casual guild runs once a week for 3,5 hours and has got SG down once in 4 nights so far. No we are neither pro nor perfect players and I totally expect us to struggle on SG for a long time still. That said - I think SG is definitely the hardest entry boss I met so far. I don't complain since it readies the group for further things ahead and FORCES the raidleaders (like me) that tend to think too much for their members to actually hand over some responsibilities.

I like the fight - A LOT. I do really want to have it on farm before any major T-bonus adss up or raidnerfing takes place. So I'll have to achieve that in the next weeks or my raiders will just overgear their fails.

So while I think bashing the OP for demanding a nerf, that you clearly do not need isn't fun nor constructive - please instead try to help. My raid struggles as well and I must admit it's all red+blue combinations since we fail way to much at moving (yet!).

So IF apart from "OMG just stick together" there is ANY advice you can give me, I'd be very VERY thankful. Point is: OFCOURSE we are not stupid monkeys and KNOW that sticking together is required - we just don't know how to transfer theory to practical use.

What do you do in the following cases:
- Meelee + healer : breaking THIS chain alone ise totally useless since it will instantly reappear because it's the only one broken

- cobalt mines: how do you determine which way around? Do you have a "chainleader"?
More than often enough a chainpair is split because both have to adapt to pool/mine-combos. One runs left, the other right. Turning around is just as bad a decision as walking on - you turn around, you eat mine, you walk on, chains-on-fire: What to do?

- Where do you try to position yourself? With the European Combo this week (purple, blue, red) the floor is ... lets say FULL of win. With chains (especially hiting meelee and healer) this is getting more and more complicated as the fight drags on.

- On Cobalt petry we try to clear as much as possible but with chainbuddies there's almost no such thing as running through several mines at once. A bubble pally might do his job, not the healer that has to waddle behind without freedom of movement. Do you hope that one of the two has the mobilty of both covered (as in: bubbling yourself, HoFreedom the other) or how do you coordinate popping mines with chains?

- How do you deal damage/heal? On the go might work for meelees but healers and Ranged might suffer large impacts on their performance especially when paired with a meelee. If you do not break the chains, how do you keep up damage in a constantly moving environment?

AGAIN: I'm not looking for the obvious. I know we all do NOT perform as good as we can, otherwise we'd be doing Hardmodes, no? But we are trying to improve and stating the obvious "Stay out of shit" or "Stand together" won't help. The question is HOW do you manage to stay out of shit and together.

Please help a desperate RL


Cheers, Fiercon

[Bryntrollian]

This isn't about heroic ?

[Porcell]

What do you do in the following cases:
- Meelee + healer : breaking THIS chain alone ise totally useless since it will instantly reappear because it's the only one broken

I don't understand your comment. For Melee/Healer, have the healer move in to melee range (and the melee be as much at max-melee as possible). The key is to not move around a lot. I know a lot of "PvPers" seem to dance around all over the goddamn place all the time. Stand still. The no-damage range on chains is a decent like 6 yards.

- cobalt mines: how do you determine which way around? Do you have a "chainleader"?
More than often enough a chainpair is split because both have to adapt to pool/mine-combos. One runs left, the other right. Turning around is just as bad a decision as walking on - you turn around, you eat mine, you walk on, chains-on-fire: What to do?

Again, don't go running 20 yards away when a mine drops. Move out of it's range, probably generally toward the boss rather than away. You don't have to move far, and even if the chains light up for a couple seconds it's not a ton of damage.

- Where do you try to position yourself? With the European Combo this week (purple, blue, red) the floor is ... lets say FULL of win. With chains (especially hiting meelee and healer) this is getting more and more complicated as the fight drags on.

We do the fight on 25m Heroic, so it's a bit different. If you are looking down the room toward the dogs, I (MT) start with Cobalt and Jade on the left side of the room, on the tile but close-ish to the edge of the center carpet stripe. Jasper is initially held up near where the bosses spawn on the right side, and Amethyst is brought back to about the midpoint lengthwise in the room, also on the right side. The dogs being attacked are always on this left side, and we double-taunt to swap dogs. Ranged and healers are generally central on the carpet runner.

Actually, if you want to watch a video of us doing it, you can go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhhBH5HBokA&feature=plcp

- On Cobalt petry we try to clear as much as possible but with chainbuddies there's almost no such thing as running through several mines at once. A bubble pally might do his job, not the healer that has to waddle behind without freedom of movement. Do you hope that one of the two has the mobilty of both covered (as in: bubbling yourself, HoFreedom the other) or how do you coordinate popping mines with chains?

If you are breaking mines during Petrify, ANYONE can do it. You shouldn't have a ton of mines active. You don't need a designated mine-popped; just have whoever is close to one step over and break it. Again, you shouldn't be moving around all over the place.

- How do you deal damage/heal? On the go might work for meelees but healers and Ranged might suffer large impacts on their performance especially when paired with a meelee. If you do not break the chains, how do you keep up damage in a constantly moving environment?

Stop moving around so much. You have to move out of a mine every once in a while, and sidestep some puddles every once in a while. Again, watch the video I linked, There are long stretches of time where you don't have to move at all. At the 1:30 mark you can see jasper chains in melee which are quite a few steps apart from each other, and the resto shaman PoV he's standing on the carpet and not moving at all. At the start of the fight he had to sidestep a couple puddles, but then not move around.

I guess my best advice is to settle down, try not to freak out, and stop moving so much. I'm not being mean here; it's what we had to do during progression. We were pulling and wiping over and over, until we had that pull where we settled in, got through the first minute, and then realized "Hey, this isn't really that hectic, we can just relax a little and just do our jobs."

[Hyrican]

You do not need to dps all the time, be it melee or caster.

That being said, if you have problems staying together with spawning circles etc. name one player as the lead and the other one has to follow the same direction.

Tell melee if chained to a caster or healer they shoud stop jumping around the boss just because they can. In a heavy raiddmg situation and everyone low on hp (they should display party healthbars for a better overview of the raid situation) following the dogs with a chain is not advised. They must control their movement better and minimize it. Also inform casters chained to melee that they have to prepare to move if the dogs change position or one get taunted from one side to the other. Our healers also move with the melee. The success in dealing with chains is understanding the flow of the fight.

You know when you have to reposition yourself and most of the time with melee in the lead, you know how he is going to move (to the dog pair) before he moves.

On heroic we had wipes because the spawn of the chains was ignored by some dps, mostly melees. Maybe informing the raid about the chains on voiceover might help struggling raids.


Other strategy i heard, which is functional even in 10 man if you do not have 3 melees:
If melee is chained to caster: melee runs to caster and follows him around.


In my opinion not breaking the chains is silly, because it is easily doable. If your raid struggles with recognizing when to move and come together, a tank is in the ideal situation to yell immediately when red begins and 10 seconds before he explodes. If you group up before the explosion no matter how many chain stacks are left, you will survive it anytime. DPS is the last thing you have to worry about during this fight. First job: Survive till enrage timer. Second job: improve dps.

[Fiercon]

Thanks very much, yeah maybe it's more of a mindset than a real "hard" tactic thingy.

Would you say dealing with the 7,5% parry-chance-penalty is worth having all melee up with the tank?
I'm the MT so I feel I constantly have to move. Be it either because a melee is about to be hit by a pool/Mine (IF they want to remain behind the boss, I need to pull him some meters) or worse if I get hit by a Mine. In that case I'll have to cover my personal space, the boss' space and the melee's space behind the boss. Add some pools or bad RNG and I'm constantly moving.

But yeah I think taking a chill pill and adjusting to it will bring some effect. I'll watch your video and see how you manage it.

[Nerfarien]

Ad much I want to understand your problem I just simply can't. IMO being a casual guild is not a bad thing, but it is no excuse for using brain for the encounters. Sure, Jasper Chains can be punishing, but with simple brain activity it can be avoided very easily. I am not sure, wheter you try it in HC or not, if you are in HC that is something different, but excuse me, in normal it is a complete joke. Inspire your raidmembers to open their eyes, move out from cobalt, amethyst and stand together with the chains, if it is not the jasper one who petrifies. Dead boss and phat lewts.

[Deleted]

Thanks very much, yeah maybe it's more of a mindset than a real "hard" tactic thingy.

Would you say dealing with the 7,5% parry-chance-penalty is worth having all melee up with the tank?
I'm the MT so I feel I constantly have to move. Be it either because a melee is about to be hit by a pool/Mine (IF they want to remain behind the boss, I need to pull him some meters) or worse if I get hit by a Mine. In that case I'll have to cover my personal space, the boss' space and the melee's space behind the boss. Add some pools or bad RNG and I'm constantly moving.

But yeah I think taking a chill pill and adjusting to it will bring some effect. I'll watch your video and see how you manage it.

I think you're overestimating how bad cobalt mines hit. Without any sort of cooldowns, and cobalt not petrificating, they do 175k or so? That's half a player's health pool only. Add something like AMS, unglyphed divine protection, ice barrier, diffuse magic, feint, dark bargain, etc. on top of that and the damage is laughable and barely noticeable. If you get linked and there's a mine in between 2 players, people can really easily pop a defensive cooldown and run through them. Most of those defensive cooldowns will also work on the initial jasper chain damage so the combination of the 2 shouldn't be an issue either. Even "small" cooldowns like barkskin are good enough to make it safe.
Also note that jasper chains only tick 11y or further apart from one another. If you're chained with a person and you get a cobalt mine on you, you move out of the way ofcourse but the smart thing to do is to just stand 1-3y next to the mine. That way either person that feels like it can take the cobalt mine while it's petrificating without the chains ticking. 10y range is further than a lot of people seem to think.

[Porcell]

I think you're overestimating how bad cobalt mines hit. Without any sort of cooldowns, and cobalt not petrificating, they do 175k or so? That's half a player's health pool only. Add something like AMS, unglyphed divine protection, ice barrier, diffuse magic, feint, dark bargain, etc. on top of that and the damage is laughable and barely noticeable. If you get linked and there's a mine in between 2 players, people can really easily pop a defensive cooldown and run through them. Most of those defensive cooldowns will also work on the initial jasper chain damage so the combination of the 2 shouldn't be an issue either. Even "small" cooldowns like barkskin are good enough to make it safe.

I meant to suggest this. Even if it's not Cobalt Pertrification, if you get a cobalt mine in a "bad" spot, you can have rogues or hunters or priests use cloak or deterrence or dispersion and run through a mine to clear it. Have them use their best judgement. If they have it off CD, pop it and clear a mine. On heroic 25m, a mine almost one-shots someone, so having one in a bad place for a long time can lead to accidents. Clear them with a personal CD. I know when a mine appears in Melee, it pretty quickly gets popped by a Rogue or Ret Paladin doing a personal CD. There's really no other good use for these CDs, so might as well use them. Even as the MT, I will pop a Last Stand and/or Shield Wall to break a mine that is near me.

[Fiercon]

I think you're overestimating how bad cobalt mines hit. Without any sort of cooldowns, and cobalt not petrificating, they do 175k or so? That's half a player's health pool only. Add something like AMS, unglyphed divine protection, ice barrier, diffuse magic, feint, dark bargain, etc. on top of that and the damage is laughable and barely noticeable. If you get linked and there's a mine in between 2 players, people can really easily pop a defensive cooldown and run through them. Most of those defensive cooldowns will also work on the initial jasper chain damage so the combination of the 2 shouldn't be an issue either. Even "small" cooldowns like barkskin are good enough to make it safe.
Also note that jasper chains only tick 11y or further apart from one another. If you're chained with a person and you get a cobalt mine on you, you move out of the way ofcourse but the smart thing to do is to just stand 1-3y next to the mine. That way either person that feels like it can take the cobalt mine while it's petrificating without the chains ticking. 10y range is further than a lot of people seem to think.

Perfectly true - we just had several wipes due to being STUCK because of the mine. It's not the mines damage that initially kills us (heck we took a whooping 290 mines with damage >100k over the course of the night (29 tries) - which is totally unacceptable - 10 unmitigated mines per try) it's always the ensuing problems.
ticking chains, a pool under the now rooted player, moving healers, Overloads - It just adds up. Most of the time we did not die due to our healers not being able to have the group healed (or going OOM), it was due to the enormous amount of damage-alignment that fragged my raiders.

But yeah, getting better at reacting needs to be and will be my focus. And as I see it, getting better at destroying things when the can be destroyed will in the end make the rest much smoother.

[Zane]

I meant to suggest this. Even if it's not Cobalt Pertrification, if you get a cobalt mine in a "bad" spot, you can have rogues or hunters or priests use cloak or deterrence or dispersion and run through a mine to clear it. Have them use their best judgement. If they have it off CD, pop it and clear a mine. On heroic 25m, a mine almost one-shots someone, so having one in a bad place for a long time can lead to accidents. Clear them with a personal CD. I know when a mine appears in Melee, it pretty quickly gets popped by a Rogue or Ret Paladin doing a personal CD. There's really no other good use for these CDs, so might as well use them. Even as the MT, I will pop a Last Stand and/or Shield Wall to break a mine that is near me.

Thats what we did on heroic, we had a dry spell on cobalt so there was a lot of mines up and the tank was running out of room so we had our rogue us cloak on 2 or 3 mines and then our pally using buble on another mine to clear up kiting room. Really sucks when you get 3-4 petrification without a cobalt though.

[Deleted]

I laughed when i saw this topic

How hard is it to stand next to someone, and when jasper petrification happens, you move apart. Dayungggggg them tactics are hard.

[Zubacz]

I'm not sure if you mean heroic or not. The way we did it though, is we only broke chains if two dps were linked. If it was two healers or healer and dps we kept the chains unbroken throughout the whole fight.
We used the 1 unchained dps and a tank specced melee dps (who cannot get chained) to reenergise the floor.

[Deleted]

What's your raid comp like? A mage can take a mine every 25 seconds easily with ice barrier and incanter's ward by default (combination absorbs 130k or so damage and gives the mage a dps-boost afterwards) for example to just clear the room continuously. Just take them when they're in the way, pop something. All players should be aware of their defensive cooldowns and it's not a dps race so those couple globals they missed or that bit of extra running isn't what is preventing the kill.

[Porcell]

ticking chains, a pool under the now rooted player, moving healers, Overloads - It just adds up. Most of the time we did not die due to our healers not being able to have the group healed (or going OOM), it was due to the enormous amount of damage-alignment that fragged my raiders.

You mentioned Overloads. You aren't having unmitigated overloads, right? Besides the first week while learning the fight, we pretty quickly figured out how to never get unwanted overloads. (And it's instant death in Heroic).

[Fiercon]

You mentioned Overloads. You aren't having unmitigated overloads, right? Besides the first week while learning the fight, we pretty quickly figured out how to never get unwanted overloads. (And it's instant death in Heroic).

No of course we let only "wanted" overloads happen.
Although at minute 7 or so (yes it takes us that long ) I seem to have no chance in denying at least one unmitigated overload to happen. We usually end up having a cat with 80 energy solo and the petryfing leading the pair with only like 10 or 15 energy. So if we get lucky, the "cat pair" stays the same and the second cat can safely explode.

But if the lonely other cat gets the buff there is no chance I can get the exploded cat to me without having his former partner (now at 95 energy) popping early.

now we have two cats at almost 0 und one cat (the petryfing) at 80-90. If after the NOW occuring overload the cat with 0 energy is the next petryfing I start to get mad. I know, it's almost like the start of the fight but adapting to it still is hard