Stone Guard needs nerfing

[Tsuna]

Wait what? Why is it suddenly the Melee's fault? The ranged should move TO the melee.

As a rogue, I agree with this guy, please don't make me stop dps because you want to channel more lolfrostbolt.

On topic: In ten man reg just leave the chains on, buddy up and stick together. Shouldn't take much more than that. Although I agree with the guy who said you need tanks with brains XD.

[Deleted]

Just no. The stone guards need some sort of tactic....I bet you just did not understood them? They aint hard if you cannot handle them.

[Blackmist]

You don't need to break the chains. You likely have a number of ways to counter the Jasper/Cobalt combo. Shaman can drop a totem that gives immunity to the freeze so you can pop them on Cobalt phase. As a hunter, Deterrence nullifies just about everything for 5 seconds of popping once per minute, and Master's Call gives time on Cobalt when the totem is still on CD.

[Deleted]

Why on earth should the first raid boss on normal mode require you to use 3rd party websites to have a chance at if you are new?

Wow is a mass market game, guys. Get real. You are all enchanted, gemmed, on vent and have years of experience - and the first boss in every raid tier should be laughably easy for you in order to give brand new folks a chance. LFR is great for getting very new and casual players a bit of loot and to see the bosses but it's 6 tank and spanks whilst being carried by decent players and shows nothing about actual raiding.

The step up from LFR to a premade raid is just too high (unless you get lucky and fall in with some of wows veterans or you are ruthless and ditch everyone who doesn't immediately measure up*) and there is zero need for it. Still, blizzard know what they are doing so it'll be nerfed soon enough.



*This doesn't solve the problem, btw. Kicking people who don't make the grade or guild hopping until you find a crew that can do the encounters relatively easily just puts the struggling end of the community out of your vision and in fact makes the problem worse over time.

I gave him advice that may help him. The sites I have suggested helps over wasted points in hit or any other stat, tell you what you have to do with your class in order to get the most out of your rotation and there are user friendly guides from icy veins that help you a ton against raid bosses. And don't judge when you don't know, this is the first tier I've ever started raiding on progress runs and not on farm runs with my guild and I have no years of experience, this is actually my first progress tier. When I hitted 90 I went to these sites to guide myself through prot and retri speccs so I can do the most for my raid. Vent is not mandatory, I explained in my comment that I can do it with my co-tank without communication at all but I also had in mind that the OP's tanks may not be as good as ours (So it's you who sees it the wrong way).

LFR is not supposed to be a step up to normal mode. LFR is just to see content, if you want to put some effort in it though and win the shiny 489-496 epix you have to read tactics, check sites, etc. And if you are waiting for the nerfs... I'm sure 5% won't help you if you can't even beat first boss. The nerfs will probably start coming out around mid-december if the race has been finished so you will have to wait for a long time if you want to wait for some 5% nerf to help you. I suggest you use all that time till the nerf to read the sites I've suggested and kill some bosses instead of wasting your gametime doing dailies... If you need a nerf to kill stone guard, just wait to see Elegon... who is a wall even on normal for the average guild.

[Kurgosh]

Why on earth should the first raid boss on normal mode require you to use 3rd party websites to have a chance at if you are new?

It doesn't. But it does require that you be somewhat proficient at the game. This is the internet age - if you can't play well enough, there are all these websites out there that will help you learn to play better. Just like in an offline, solo game, you can look up strategy guides if you're stuck on part of the story. Same thing here.

How is this different than any other game? You pick up a chess board for the first time, read the rules, practice moving the pieces around without dropping them, and go enter a tournament. Guess what's going to happen? Unless you're some kind of ridiculous prodigy, you're going to get stomped. Even by people who aren't very good (ie. Normal Mode). But there are ways to get better. If you choose not to take advantage of any of the ways to get better, you're going to get stomped in your next tournament too. What are you going to do then, complain to the makers of chess that their game is unfair because you keep losing? Or get better? Or even decide that tournament chess isn't your cup of tea, and maybe you'd just like to play casual games with your friends who are also terrible (dungeons, questing), or even switch to checkers (pet battles).

[Seriss]

or you could, you know.... have your ranged camp just stick together and never have to worry about jasper chains.. and then when all chains are out, use the leftover people to light up tiles.

lots of cobalt traps? the room is large, move the boss. have people with immunities remove the traps if you don't seem to get any cobalt petrification.


it's really not hard at all.

On 10-man, you may not have any leftover people to light up tiles which actually causes huge problems in regards to healer mana. You need the stacks, but you don't have the manpower to get them up to where you need them to be. You don't reliably get Jasper so you can break the chains before you have to go and light up tiles. It's halfway managable when two dps are chained and can do tile runs together. It's okay when two healers are chained together so they can just stand there and keep the chains, thus removing 1/3 of bad RNG for the remainder of the encounter.

However, it often happens - and, as required by Murphy's Law, in the most inopportune moments - that some of your dps are chained to a healer who cannot run with them. Our resto druid would always run, but the other two healers would never run and light tiles as they had to stick to healing tanks.

Unlucky RNG makes this encounter a real hassle when chains are up for the week, and you get 3 out of 4 combinations with chains. And they all suck equally.

I can totally see where OP is coming from. It is by far not an easy encounter when you're more on the "Let's have fun and raid a bit" side of the fence. There's a lot of movement and awareness and especially! communication ("Let's move that way with the chains if we get goo beneath our feet! Left! Right!") required, some of which many people still have to learn, and we're not helping them by pointing and laughing and telling them that it's oh so easy. Because it's not easy. We just know better how to handle stuff like that because we have more raiding experience and take it all more seriously. To MANY people, today's normal modes already feel like half-heroic modes.

Only because *I* can manage, doesn't mean that everyone else can too. Yes, Stone Guard is relatively easy, but it's still a step up from what people were used to seeing as normal mode difficulty in the past.

But chains fortunately get a few adjustments. That ought to help guilds who take their raiding baby steps, but it still won't make the encounter keel over and die when the rest doesn't work out properly

[Deleted]

I gave him advice that may help him. The sites I have suggested helps over wasted points in hit or any other stat, tell you what you have to do with your class in order to get the most out of your rotation and there are user friendly guides from icy veins that help you a ton against raid bosses. And don't judge when you don't know, this is the first tier I've ever started raiding on progress runs and not on farm runs with my guild and I have no years of experience, this is actually my first progress tier. When I hitted 90 I went to these sites to guide myself through prot and retri speccs so I can do the most for my raid. Vent is not mandatory, I explained in my comment that I can do it with my co-tank without communication at all but I also had in mind that the OP's tanks may not be as good as ours (So it's you who sees it the wrong way).

LFR is not supposed to be a step up to normal mode. LFR is just to see content, if you want to put some effort in it though and win the shiny 489-496 epix you have to read tactics, check sites, etc. And if you are waiting for the nerfs... I'm sure 5% won't help you if you can't even beat first boss. The nerfs will probably start coming out around mid-december if the race has been finished so you will have to wait for a long time if you want to wait for some 5% nerf to help you. I suggest you use all that time till the nerf to read the sites I've suggested and kill some bosses instead of wasting your gametime doing dailies... If you need a nerf to kill stone guard, just wait to see Elegon... who is a wall even on normal for the average guild.

All looks good, none of it as an actual response to my post though. None of what I posted was about me or my raiding. At all.

I'll ask again - why on earth should the first normal raid boss require external 3rd party sites to stand a chance at clearing it?

As you say, LFR has nothing to do with raiding, so why defend the first raid boss some new players may ever encounter being so chronically tricky to pull off?

Simply bad design from blizzard is all.

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 11:51 AM ----------

It doesn't. But it does require that you be somewhat proficient at the game. This is the internet age - if you can't play well enough, there are all these websites out there that will help you learn to play better. Just like in an offline, solo game, you can look up strategy guides if you're stuck on part of the story. Same thing here.

How is this different than any other game? You pick up a chess board for the first time, read the rules, practice moving the pieces around without dropping them, and go enter a tournament. Guess what's going to happen? Unless you're some kind of ridiculous prodigy, you're going to get stomped. Even by people who aren't very good (ie. Normal Mode). But there are ways to get better. If you choose not to take advantage of any of the ways to get better, you're going to get stomped in your next tournament too. What are you going to do then, complain to the makers of chess that their game is unfair because you keep losing? Or get better? Or even decide that tournament chess isn't your cup of tea, and maybe you'd just like to play casual games with your friends who are also terrible (dungeons, questing), or even switch to checkers (pet battles).

I guess you hadn't noticed that by the time a new player gets to their first normal raid they have already been playing the game for days if not weeks. At no point during that playtime are they taught anything which will help them in their first raid. This is an old problem in wow, and it doesn't get fixed by saying "use the internet to find out how to play" - because my simple retort is "why the fuck should anyone require homework when it could be easily incorporated into the game itself?

In good, well designed video games, you start off and the game slowly baby steps you into learning all the controls (and if it's really well designed you never notice you are being taught) and then frees you to go and have fun with what you have been shown. Wow doesn't do this - it's a cakewalk single player MMO all the way up to your first (normal)raid when suddenly BOOM you get flattened by rock hard mechanics that arrive as if from another game entirely.

Long term players like me and you are used to it - all I was pointing out was that my friends guild had no idea this sudden difficulty was waiting for them and that my opinion is that's crap design on blizzard part. I didn't even ask for a nerf, just a re-arrangement of the bosses into a more sensible kill order. First boss of any raid tier should be a tank and spank gimme, just because it will help brand new players not instantly give up when they go to their first raid - and pretty much no one else will notice or care.

[Celista]

I guess you hadn't noticed that by the time a new player gets to their first normal raid they have already been playing the game for days if not weeks. At no point during that playtime are they taught anything which will help them in their first raid. This is an old problem in wow, and it doesn't get fixed by saying "use the internet to find out how to play" - because my simple retort is "why the fuck should anyone require homework when it could be easily incorporated into the game itself?

You don't need to do homework to raid. Common sense, trial and error, and 5 minutes reading the dungeon journal is all you need. :P

First boss of any raid tier should be a tank and spank gimme, just because it will help brand new players not instantly give up when they go to their first raid - and pretty much no one else will notice or care.

No. Players respond and adapt to challenges, you don't need to give them an "easy" first boss.

[Whiskra]

It baffles me that people still bother replying to Injin. That guy has always talked utter nonsense.

[Celista]

It baffles me that people still bother replying to Injin. That guy has always talked utter nonsense.

I don't post here enough to notice. Hmm...noted :P

[Qprah]

Just have all healers and dps stack on the bosses butt the entire time. NEVER BREAK THE CHAINS. If 2 ranged get paired, they dont have to stay with the melee.

Once you start doing that it becomes absurdly more simple.

[Dukenukem]

Seems like people never heard of Difficulty curve in Raid and why it is good.
If you have steady (and mostly linear) increase in difficulty in raids it begins to be boring. You know the next boss is going to be harder than the curent one. If you are presented with obstacle and you see clear way afer it you have much more motivation to overcome the obstacle. You are simply not going uphill all the time, you have relief from time to time. Examples be Elegon, HC Spine, Feng(25) and many more. Thats why I enjoy Normal progression more than HC (where with selecting HC you create steady hill instead of the desired relief bosses).

Does Stone Guard need nerfs? - absolutely not
10 suffers from changing difficulty (one only thing where 25 have some sort of advantage in having same fight all time).

Suggestions - all above, just dont break chains unless Jasper.

And to add 25 perspective of boss difficulty order:

GaraJal
Spirit Kings
Stone Guard
Feng
Will
Elegon

[Choptimus]

1)why on earth should the first normal raid boss require external 3rd party sites to stand a chance at clearing it?

2)chronically tricky to pull off?

3)Simply bad design from blizzard is all.

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 11:51 AM ----------



4)At no point during that playtime are they taught anything which will help them in their first raid.

5)why the fuck should anyone require homework when it could be easily incorporated into the game itself?

6)In good, well designed video games, you start off and the game slowly baby steps you into learning all the controls...

7)my friends guild had no idea this sudden difficulty was waiting for them and that my opinion is that's crap design on blizzard part

1) It doesn't. Push Shift+J

2) It's not. Stop being bad.

3) No. Bad play by your guild.

4) Every dungeon, and heroic 5man on the way to level 90. Also multiple mobs in pandaria with cleave/kamehameha/bad on the ground attacks.

5) Press Shift+J

6) Press Shift+J

7) Press Shift+J

You are the problem, not the game.

PS: Shift+J

[Deleted]

Seems like people never heard of Difficulty curve in Raid and why it is good.
If you have steady (and mostly linear) increase in difficulty in raids it begins to be boring. You know the next boss is going to be harder than the curent one. If you are presented with obstacle and you see clear way afer it you have much more motivation to overcome the obstacle. You are simply not going uphill all the time, you have relief from time to time. Examples be Elegon, HC Spine, Feng(25) and many more. Thats why I enjoy Normal progression more than HC (where with selecting HC you create steady hill instead of the desired relief bosses).

But that's just your own preference and not something they do with certain knowledge about psychology.. I like it better to climb the hill.

[Anjerith]

All you have to do is ignore them, stack to the person you are chained to. Kill the boss while cooperating with your partner on mechanic avoidance.

You can try to break them when that color is up, but if it is that huge a roadblock for you then just do what I suggested.


Pretty much every boss after Stone Guards has more complex mechanics though, so you may as well start crying for nerfs all around. They aren't going to remove mechanics just because raids do not understand them.

Now, as has been pointed out, they are reducing the amount of times it is cast in the encounter. This should help you out some. But again I encourage you to encourage your raiders to learn how to take care of themselves.

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 01:43 PM ----------

Also, the fights themselves now emote on your screen what you need to do when an ability is used. You don't even need to press Shift+J.

[Deleted]

1) It doesn't. Push Shift+J

2) It's not. Stop being bad.

3) No. Bad play by your guild.

4) Every dungeon, and heroic 5man on the way to level 90. Also multiple mobs in pandaria with cleave/kamehameha/bad on the ground attacks.

5) Press Shift+J

6) Press Shift+J

7) Press Shift+J

You are the problem, not the game.

PS: Shift+J

I don't see how saying read the dungeon journal will help you when you can't even read my posts. Or the thread.

(My guild cleared Stone guards first week, btw. I was talking about a friends guild which struggled like buggery even with me on mumble telling them what to do. 4 of them had never raided at all before and 3 not since the start of cata*) For a first time experience, stone guards are massively dispiriting and massively out of alignment with new players experiences of the game up to that point. Wow is single player easiness from level 1 all the way through LFR and then BOOM owned by mechanics out of nowhere.



*They quit due to difficulty and came back for mop as they heard it wasn't as poorly designed.

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 01:48 PM ----------

It baffles me that people still bother replying to Injin. That guy has always talked utter nonsense.

Thanks for reading all my posts, always nice to have a fan. And I also thank you for your constructive, relvent criticism.

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 01:50 PM ----------

You don't need to do homework to raid. Common sense, trial and error, and 5 minutes reading the dungeon journal is all you need. :P

I've got an hour and a half worth of wiping last friday night with some newbie players saying you are wrong.

No. Players respond and adapt to challenges, you don't need to give them an "easy" first boss.

No, they don't. Normal people try stuff for a bit and when it's looking like a lot of work, drop it and go do something fun instead. This is why the raiding community has historically been such a small subset of wow players.

[Anjerith]

*They quit due to difficulty and came back for mop as they heard it wasn't as poorly designed.[COLOR="red"]

Calling Cataclysm a "Bad Design" because the first tier of content was difficult is a an example of a lazy player. Suggesting that because the first boss in a new set of tiers forces players to not tunnel is the beginning of a "Bad Design" for MoP is an example of someone who is just not ready to be a part of the Raid community.

This isn't me saying your friends are bad or shouldn't play WoW. LFR offers them plenty of opportunity to practice mechanics and get their fulfillment in weekly.

[Choptimus]

1)My guild cleared Stone guards first week, btw
2)I was talking about a friends guild which struggled like buggery even with me on mumble telling them what to do.
3)4 of them had never raided at all before and 3 not since the start of cata
4)For a first time experience, stone guards are massively dispiriting and massively out of alignment with new players experiences of the game up to that point.
5)Wow is single player easiness from level 1 all the way through LFR and then BOOM owned by mechanics out of nowhere.
6)They quit due to difficulty and came back for mop as they heard it wasn't as poorly designed.

1) Good job.
2) If they struggle even with raid journal, in-game emotes, and you telling them what to do on voice comms, they are bad. The end.
3) Brand new to raiding, so what do you expect? If I try something for the first time that I've never attemted before, I'm going to suck until I learn and improve.
4) Depends how bad these new players are. Anybody who has played any kind of hotkey RPG before and has a slither of common sense can easily complete NORMAL raids, lol.
5) If you get owned by mechanics "out of nowhere" then you're bad. (Hint: They come from the raid journal, not nowhere)
6) They quit due to difficulty in CATACLYSM?? Oh wow.

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 01:55 PM ----------

This isn't me saying your friends are bad.

I'm saying exactly that.

[Deleted]

Calling Cataclysm a "Bad Design" because the first tier of content was difficult is a an example of a lazy player. Suggesting that because the first boss in a new set of tiers forces players to not tunnel is the beginning of a "Bad Design" for MoP is an example of someone who is just not ready to be a part of the Raid community.

This isn't me saying your friends are bad or shouldn't play WoW. LFR offers them plenty of opportunity to practice mechanics and get their fulfillment in weekly.

No, sorry. Normality is what the majority of people will do.

Being willing to wipe over and over on bosses is abnormal - most people will not do this. They might go half a dozen times or something, but they soon get fed up and leave. In cataclysms case they left the game in droves. This is normality and this is the evidence. If you've played wow and ever pugged, you should know this already. People don't put that much effort in. They never have and they never will.

The customer is always right, blizzard should be designing for the players they have, not some imaginary player that you think people should actually be. (And admittedly some players ARE willing to wipe over and over, god bless them but it'd be nice if you could recognise that such people are not the average player, they are freakishly commited, unsual personalities.)

[Celista]

I've got an hour and a half worth of wiping last friday night with some newbie players saying you are wrong.

A whole hour and a half of wiping, eh...just expect to one shot bosses without any effort? Lmfao.

Sounds like player error if they can't get it down in the first couple of raid nights.Also, I was raiding less than a month after hitting level cap with my first toon and was able to figure shiz out on my own....if I can do it so can any new player.

No, they don't. Normal people try stuff for a bit and when it's looking like a lot of work, drop it and go do something fun instead. This is why the raiding community has historically been such a small subset of wow players.

No. People who complain that shiz is too hard after putting a minimal amount of effort into something and then quitting have something wrong with them. Btw that sort of attitude doesn't get you far in the real world either.