Baine Bloodhoof and Anduin Wrynn are friends?

[Zaelsino]

They've been friends for quite a while. It's the cross-faction canon camaraderie now that Jaina and Thrall are at odds.

[Trassk]

They've been friends for quite a while. It's the cross-faction canon camaraderie now that Jaina and Thrall are at odds.

Jaina's has odds with Thrall because she's a wacko now. Thrall still wants to be friends with her.

I understand her hate for Garrosh, thats perfectly understandable. but for her to now hate all the horde, even those not guilty of doing her wrong, thats just an obvious case of blizzard trying to appeal to the wrong kind of players for there sake.

[Morrei]

Except the Alliance has always been good and Knight in shining armor. Realistically the full scale war of the Alliance and Horde CAN'T LAST FOREVER. It just can't.

Arthas says Hi.

Honestly the Alliance has bred just as much evil as the horde has and Garrosh isnt trying to eradicate all life on Azeroth, so I think ..Alliance has a edge in that department

[Anjerith]

You don't need to buy any books, just look it up online. Pretty sure the site is called WoWpedia or something like that now. As for showing lore in-game or not - they can do that much better now than they ever could before. However, people complain about having to read or having to listen to NPCs roleplay.

It's a slipper slope.

[Wildtree]

Think thats bad you actually have to quest with him as a hordie in karasang wild

i was thinking to myself am i really letting myself do this why dont i just hand him over to garrosh and he will make me a general LOL

If you are not an Orc, you cannot fully support Garrosh. Your first allegiance lies with your faction leader, and the Horde as a whole comes second.

Country first, same as in real life.
You run into Anduin several times as Horde. The first time is in Jade Forest already when you discover at the end of the quest chain, that the young alliance soldier was him. Then again you find him in the Temple of the White Tiger. And there you get the explanation why we simply don't kill him....
Tauren have other values than the barbaric Orc's with their ruthless leader.

Last but not least, Anduin is a wonderful tool to showcase the discrepancies within the Horde itself.

[Morrei]

Jaina's has odds with Thrall because she's a wacko now. Thrall still wants to be friends with her.

I understand her hate for Garrosh, thats perfectly understandable. but for her to now hate all the horde, even those not guilty of doing her wrong, thats just an obvious case of blizzard trying to appeal to the wrong kind of players for there sake.

Well. Yes and No, taking the realistic approach to it.. no matter how much the horde is trying to redeem themselves..(and it will always be a ongoing process) Garrosh = Horde, Garrosh razed Theramore which = All Horde must pay. Its common in Humanity to think this onesided, it sucks..but its fact. He speaks for his people being appointed as Warchief..regardless of what his people think about his actions, Ultimately..THEY will pay for them.

[Combatbulter]

Jaina's has odds with Thrall because she's a wacko now. Thrall still wants to be friends with her.

I understand her hate for Garrosh, thats perfectly understandable. but for her to now hate all the horde, even those not guilty of doing her wrong, thats just an obvious case of blizzard trying to appeal to the wrong kind of players for there sake.

Oh Jainas hatred for Thrall is perfectly justified, who put garrosh in charge?Wwho refused to listen to her, before Theramore was sacked? If Jaina would have still accepted Thrall as her best buddy I would have lost all hope for the character, her reaction is just human.

[Morrei]

Oh Jainas hatred for Thrall is perfectly justified, who put garrosh in charge?Wwho refused to listen to her, before Theramore was sacked? If Jaina would have still accepted Thrall as her best buddy I would have lost all hope for the character, her reaction is just human.

This.

10 char

[Oogzy]

Yeah. Anduin is awesome. He's one of my favorite people. I also read the books as well, so, yeah.

Yes you do need to buy the books if you want to know everything that's going on. You also need to go back and do all the quests that changed and do them on both factions. If you don't want to do that, you read all the books.

[AeneasBK]

Perhaps...The new PvP maps are about resource rivalry. Not war or territory as the old ones. No one is conquering Kotmongu, or the mines. They are draining the resources to their own people.

Theres lots of different ways to interpret the BG's place in the 'lore'

Arathi Basin and Warsong Gulch are about resources. (As are Eye of the Storm and Isle of Conquest). Strand was about retrieving a titan relic for your faction... Alterac Valley and Gilneas (arguably) are the only BG's based on actual "war" or "territory"

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 04:19 PM ----------

Arthas says Hi.

Honestly the Alliance has bred just as much evil as the horde has and Garrosh isnt trying to eradicate all life on Azeroth, so I think ..Alliance has a edge in that department

I dunno... its not like Arthas was doing it in the name of the Alliance... Sure he came from an Alliance background but by the time he returned from Northrend and killed his king, he could hardly be considered an Alliance representative

Sylvanas, on the other hand...

[Altam]

WTF Rhonin dead? Seriously, I play this game for way too many hours a week and I never had a clue.

[Stir]

On the websites though you get very little if any dialogue and it's just stated facts, it's a clever but greedy marketing scheme. Screw over anyone who is interested in the lore without money to spare for books.

Because it's really clever marketing to put all the lore on a web-site for everyone to read, right?
It's effort. Effort done for free. You're not paying for the books, so to get the lore, you visit a free site, and you're annoyed because the free site is not a library of novels..?

[Trassk]

WTF Rhonin dead? Seriously, I play this game for way too many hours a week and I never had a clue.

Because, just like Krasus, Cairne and Magni (kind of), all these characters deaths happen in the novels because the game is incapable of giving any kind of sympathetic death to them in a meaningful way.

Though I think just showing that they have died ingame to let everyone know, since its stupid to only show such major characters dying in a book, I still rest my case, the game can't show any kind of decent way of presenting deep and developed lore.

The reason for that being the majority of players who can't be arsed to read the novels are the same people that ripped on any kind of character lore happening ingame (mostly because they want the game to revolve around them and not the lore characters)

[Morrei]

I dunno... its not like Arthas was doing it in the name of the Alliance... Sure he came from an Alliance background but by the time he returned from Northrend and killed his king, he could hardly be considered an Alliance representative

Sylvanas, on the other hand...

Well it DID stem from "The need to acquire the power that can help him protect his people"..but yes obviously once he decided to gut his own father....

Haha yeah Sylvanas..never thought of it that way..she flew completely under my thought radar..I blame lack of coffee.

[Klaxxar]

WTF Rhonin dead? Seriously, I play this game for way too many hours a week and I never had a clue.

I always liked Rhonin, but yeah its in the Tides of War and most of the good/bad things are in the books and not in game which is kinda meh to me.
People don't need to purchase books all the time, but it is nice to have a book in your face once and while.

[Protar]

Where do we as players and adventurers fit into this story? It can't be done, there are too many things to show for starters a lot of them are also personal to X character. This is a game, we don't want to watch cinematics or cut scenes we are there to be involved. They are two completely different types of media and games are far more limited because of the interactivity.

Why not ask where is our place fighting the LK or Deathwing? Both those fights and many more revolved around certain characters and yet we were there to help. Why could we not be the ones dropping bombs on the Grimtotem? Why couldn't we be a part of the strike team Varian leads into Ironforge? Or partake in driving out the Nightmare which as I recall involved an entire army of Azeroth's citizens. To say we had no place in that event is stupid.

You're also picking on the very bold parts of the story, as we're using the Shattering as an example, where do we fit in when Baine meets Anduin? Where are we when Thrall travels to Nagrand? Where are we during Thralls discussion with Garrosh and Cairne? Where are we when Night Elves get killed by Twilights Hammer?

Well I'm not suggesting we're there for every single conversation major characters have. That would be taking it too far. But we are often there for these lore important conversations as it is. In fact we did see Thrall traveling to Nagrand and training with Aggra. It was part of the elemental unrest event. Would that blizzard put the more exciting events in game too.

So on so forth. There is only so much you can put into a game before it becomes a load of cinematics and cut scenes that a huge amount of time, resources and money are put into that only a small proportion of the playerbase will bother with.

Personally I think that we do need more cutscenes and events like this. Things that make wow feel like an actual story instead of a bunch of grinds and kill quests. All video games tell a story, it's only in mmo's where the games are too scared to tell this story for fear that it'll scare off players. That's not how it should be and it doesn't need to be to keep players. I have a hard time believing that players are willing to grind for months to get the best gear, but would quit the game as soon as a cutscene comes up. WoW needs more cutscenes, more major lore events in game, more story.

[Thetruth1400]

How else do you expect such lore to be brought to you otherwise? Practically all lore in books is either incredibly hard or impossible to show in-game. I don't really see how it's greedy in that way.

Speaking for myself, after having played the in game theramore scenario and having read the Tides of War, I can say 100% that there's a lot missing that could have easily made it into the scenario, or at least into a scenario. The scenarios don't even mention the presence of Malygos or what happens prior to Theramore, let alone accurate to the book in the least. It's an oversimplified version that leaves much to be desired. In game, it's a small unit of players infiltrating the area. In the book, it's war.

[lunchbox2042]

I don't see the problem with it being in books. Sure it sucks for the people who hate reading, but for lore nerds, I think it's great. Other fantasy series have outside books that give you more insight into the series so it isn't just a WoW thing.

[razski]

Personally, I think enticing people to read books is a good thing.

[Scummer]

Why not ask where is our place fighting the LK or Deathwing? Both those fights and many more revolved around certain characters and yet we were there to help. Why could we not be the ones dropping bombs on the Grimtotem? Why couldn't we be a part of the strike team Varian leads into Ironforge? Or partake in driving out the Nightmare which as I recall involved an entire army of Azeroth's citizens. To say we had no place in that event is stupid.

Ham fisting us into every event ruins the story - plain and simple. We can't literally be everywhere and there is no practically in us being certain place eg. Night Elves killed by Twilights Hammer, when Thrall gets chucked into another time line, Thrall confronting Alexstraza, Anduin being locked in Ironforge, the Druid meeting after the Night Elf attacks, Varian hurting Anduin etc etc etc. Our role is not to be in on every political meeting or slaughter at every point in Azeroth at every point in time. Books give us the opportunity to see everything without having to be a part of it.

So no ham fisting us in doesn't work. As I mentioned in my OP you're again listing the bolder parts of the story, the subtle parts cannot be done. We are not there to X leader's best buddy in the story.

Warcraft RTS worked because were were actually playing the the characters/armies in the story rather than a bystander. This is again another flaw with trying to tell and RTS story in a MMORPG.

Well I'm not suggesting we're there for every single conversation major characters have. That would be taking it too far. But we are often there for these lore important conversations as it is. In fact we did see Thrall traveling to Nagrand and training with Aggra. It was part of the elemental unrest event. Would that blizzard put the more exciting events in game too.

Yet it was nothing like the books at all. Guess why? Because it was personal to Thrall and were were not personally involved at all.

Personally I think that we do need more cutscenes and events like this. Things that make wow feel like an actual story instead of a bunch of grinds and kill quests. All video games tell a story, it's only in mmo's where the games are too scared to tell this story for fear that it'll scare off players. That's not how it should be and it doesn't need to be to keep players. I have a hard time believing that players are willing to grind for months to get the best gear, but would quit the game as soon as a cutscene comes up. WoW needs more cutscenes, more major lore events in game, more story.

SWTOR would like a word with you then. People began to hate the constant cutscenes even if they liked the story. As I mentioned before hand gaming is meant to be interactive, it isn't meant to consist of you sitting around watching some other bloke do something.