Draztal on the LFR issue

[Descolada]

If you are serious about progression, you will do anything and everything to gain an edge, and you don't normally complain about having more things to do that helps get you that edge. The annoying thing to me about the argument is why LFR in particular is the one "mandatory" activity they don't want on their weekly to-do list. For the most part, it is quick and painless. I see it as being similar to the old "weekly" from LK, only it takes a bit longer. As far as valor earned per minute of effort, it feels on par with everything else.

If I were going to complain, it would be that there is no "rep-free" valor vendor. If anything feels forced it would be that aspect of dailies, but thats only temporary until valor "upgrading" kicks in.

[Dengir]

Yeah, and your point is? You obviously double your chance by running LFR/spending bonus roll on LFR Sha to get a better trinket than HC Elegon.

Hey everyone there is a looking for raid Sha now!!! /sarcasm end

if you don't like LFR, don't do it. Plain and simple.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Being cynical for a moment, you forgot the part where after doing this they then come onto the forums to complain about how the raid was too easy.

Yep.

No pacing. No patience. No discipline.

It's certainly not anything I miss from WoW.

[Raone]

Ya your not forced to do LFR, but your also not forced to gem/enchant/reforge your gear either. I'm sure you can beat all the content available without doing any of those things, it would be hard but it's doable, but your just gimping yourself if you don't. If you don't do LFR/Heroics/Dailies for gear that is considered upgrades then your gimping yourself and therefore gimping your raid.

So ya your not forced to do LFR, your just a jerk if you don't try to help your team anyway you can.

[Keristrasza]

Anyways, I dont like this guy - he is like the incernation of the white knights we got on MMO champion, just speaking officially for what might not be even the opinion of the company.

So... anyone that doesn't agree with the OP or other "leet" raiders beliefs of the LFR ... are white knights and teaming against then? Got it.

Believe it or not, almost everyone speaking against them (for the most part any way, there ARE some fan-boys that do it just to troll) have some LOGICAL point. Raiders, more over those who believe they are as good as world first guilds have some form of mental block that makes them believe they need the LFR for some kind of competitive edge. Thing is, I don't care if its competitive against another guild, if it is not world first, nor server first, it is not worth the hassle.

It's like Major League Baseball (or any other major sports team) they compete to be the best for the season, they are the best of the best and the little league softball team, while playing ALMOST the same game, will never be on the same level as them. Yes I know RL reference but sadly it fits this situation. One feature in the game should not be altered for a small group of players because they have an obsessive compulsive disorder and not able to resist the "Rules of raiding". What's worse is these people blame blizzard saying they are forcing them, when it is a players CHOICE to do a gear grab. (Don't even try to tell me its not because that is utter BS plain and simple. NO ONE from blizzard is at your house holding a gun to your head telling you that you have to run the LFR "or else".)

I would almost bet that if they DID block the LFR from people who were doing normals and heroics, there would be even MORE tears because a method for getting fast gear was taken away from them. Hell they "took away" easy valor gear and added it to rep venders to make it "harder" to get, and look at all the tears that is causing. "OMG I'M BEING FORCED TO DO REP FOR GEAR." ... yeah sure.

[sebun]

If you don't do LFR/Heroics/Dailies for gear that is considered upgrades then your gimping yourself and therefore gimping your raid.

If your raid team can't complete normal without LFR gear the issue is with the team not the gear, that content is tuned for sub-LFR item levels.

[ipaq]

The "issue" is that there are certain people that say they're forced to run LFR to be able to do normal/heroic modes.

Rape is forced. Video games aren't.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

I would almost bet that if they DID block the LFR from people who were doing normals and heroics, there would be even MORE tears because a method for getting fast gear was taken away from them.

They need to do it anyway for the harmony of the raid. It's not the casuals doing the mouthing in those raids, it's those who are seriously overgeared trying to get trinkets/shields/weapons for the most part. They look down on those in LFR and act like spoiled brats. They don't need to be there, they can do normals/heroic raids without LFR fine.

LFR is end-game essentially for dungeoneers and those who can't commit to a raid schedule. It fills a much needed niche, one that doesn't need to be spoiled by people who really don't need to be there...and can take their raid drama back to their guilds where it belongs. It's unbelievable what they scream about in there.

[Raone]

If your raid team can't complete normal without LFR gear the issue is with the team not the gear, that content is tuned for sub-LFR item levels.

It's doable in full blue 463 gear, that's not the point. If your not trying to squeeze every little bit of HPS/DPS out of your character your hurting your raid. If your not trying to gear up your character outside of your normal run then your gimping your raid. Yes you can enter and clear it all in blue gear but if you can get gear from LFR but you choose not to you might as well just show up without geming or enchanting your gear, cause its pretty much the same :P

My group has cleared all of MSV and working on HoF. I still have some blue pieces so I will continue to do LFR till they are replaced by better. It's not manditory, but when you wipe at 1% you'll wish you ran LFR for that extra bit of DPS :P

[Gurbz]

It's not manditory, but when you wipe at 1% you'll wish you ran LFR for that extra bit of DPS :P

That's exactly where the "required" logic fails though. Even if you and your entire raid team played flawlessly (and by flawlessly I mean perfect rotations, precise positioning at all time, etc basically hitting the theoretical maximum DPS for any given fight) the DPS difference between heroic dungeon gear and LFR gear is not statistically significant. Far less than your hypothetical 1%, especially with the insane amounts of health raid bosses have now. And that is if you are playing perfectly. The tiny little mistakes that even the best of us make because we are human and not machines means that you will get far more benefit from executing the fight better than by squeezing out every last piece of LFR gear.

[Kaleredar]

There seems to be a thorough dissolution in people's minds between "OPTIMAL" and "VIABLE." Arguing that LFR, or dailies for gear (basically the same argument) are the only VIABLE way to progress through raids is completely false; the raids were tuned to be doable in Heroic dungeon level blues, meaning that is the VIABLE level of gear to clear the raids.

Obtaining a scant few pieces of slightly better gear until you can get actual normal mode raid gear might be OPTIMAL, but even then, it's a sort of "quasi-optimum" where all you've done is eek out a slightly stronger foothold to replace an item with a better piece of gear anyway. Regardless, I'd argue that if you ARE shooting for "the complete optimum," for whatever reason, you SHOULD have to put in extra effort to achieve it... pretending, however, that Optimal and viable are the exact same thing in this situation is foolish and inaccurate.

[SamR]

It's doable in full blue 463 gear, that's not the point. If your not trying to squeeze every little bit of HPS/DPS out of your character your hurting your raid. If your not trying to gear up your character outside of your normal run then your gimping your raid. Yes you can enter and clear it all in blue gear but if you can get gear from LFR but you choose not to you might as well just show up without geming or enchanting your gear, cause its pretty much the same :P

My group has cleared all of MSV and working on HoF. I still have some blue pieces so I will continue to do LFR till they are replaced by better. It's not manditory, but when you wipe at 1% you'll wish you ran LFR for that extra bit of DPS :P

So you perceive a problem with LFR. What's your solution to the problem? You want normal difficulty nerfed and LFR rewards rendered useless? I don't get it. What exactly do you want?

[UcanDoSht]

I don't even understand why having an extra avenue for extra progression is even a bad thing. "KEEP THESE THINGS AWAY FROM ME SO I DON'T HAVE TO DO THEM!!! I HAVE NO SELF CONTROL!"

If your raid team can't complete normal without LFR gear the issue is with the team not the gear, that content is tuned for sub-LFR item levels.

The thing is, Blizzard said LFR wont be mandatory - which is false as of yet. It's not about having another way to progress your char, its about being forced to do it, because if you dont, you probably miss out on gear upgrades you actually need for bosses like Elegon. OF COURSE there's a difference in skill level of the players, BUT it is also true that gear increases your stats and therefor your raid performance - JUST like doing your rotation.

---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 09:59 AM ----------

if you don't like LFR, don't do it. Plain and simple.

Post constructively, please. Since your "argument" doesnt hold any ground - like pointed out like 10 times in this thread alone.

[zaderp]

To say that Blizzard think that the mindless running of LFR is healthy for the game is to overstate it to a great degree. They acknowledge that guilds that are naturally competitive and specifically going for world-first achievements are going to do whatever it is they're going to do regardless. Fine.

And I like that. I like the extra effort that is required to "be the best", outside of raiding. Whether that's grinding dailies to get extra rolls, or grinding mats to get better flasks and potions and whatnot. I have 0 problem with that. That's not the even issue here. The issue is specifically LFR. It's the exact same content, only with faceroll difficulty, as the primary content these raiders thrive for. Same bosses, same environments, same everything. Only difference is in numbers. That's just a horrible design, and that's the reason why Blizzard has moved away from it in the past.

My reading of what he's saying generally (over more than this one post) is that there are many guilds that believe that they must do all of this to be competitive when the guild isn't really competing for anything. For them, running LFR mindlessly is neither necessary nor healthy. But guilds choose their playstyle and the members either go along or not. If they go along, they shouldn't be complaining about their choices.

I read it as more of a call to be realistic than anything else. To that extent, I do agree that it's largely futile. Guilds aspire. That's what they do. The #12,124th guild in the world may truly believe that if they run LFR as much as they can, they'll jump up a dozen thousand places in rankings. Players can choose to agree or not.

Agreed with that. From what I've seen in different forums aswell, there's a lot of people "min/maxing" right now who don't really have the individual skill or just the group they need to make that min/maxing actually effective. Don't get we wrong, all the extra gear you get from LFR still helps these people but it seems kinda unnecessary for guilds still wiping in normal modes.

In the end, it's a choice, not a requirement.

Gemming, enchanting and doing dailies is a choice too. And all these are completely different content than the raid instances, so they are more than acceptable requirements in my books.

[Stuffs]

If your raid team can't complete normal without LFR gear the issue is with the team not the gear, that content is tuned for sub-LFR item levels.

Who says we're looking exclusively at normals?
Fact is a few pieces of a gear is often the difference for a kill, especially if the issue is an enrage mechanic.

[AeneasBK]

The issue is that Blizzard continuously talks shit out of both sides of its mouth and this is the most prevalent point to bust them on it now given Ghostcrawler's previous blue posts that LFR is not required for Normal / HC raiding and his subsequent tweets that those having trouble clearing MSV on Normal should hit LFR and gear up.

The issue isn't the end of the world, but it makes for a damned good lightning rod.

What else could he say? "If you're having trouble clearing MSV on normal, learn to play better" - I draw attention to what shit-storm was caused when he said that about 5 man heroics at the start of cata.

If you're in 463 Blue gear and you are having trouble clearing MSV you have 2 options

a) Learn to play better
b) Get better gear

You can take your choice of those 2 OPTIONS. You do not HAVE to have LFR gear to clear normal MSV.

[Amsden]

Post constructively, please. Since your "argument" doesnt hold any ground - like pointed out like 10 times in this thread alone.

He has a point tho. The only options Blizzard can take to make LFR feel not "required" is to either A) Add it to the raid lockout (thus removing choice) or B) Remove the Gear or make it not any better than 5 mans. Neither one of those are good solutions by any stretch of the imagination. You don't HAVE to run LFR you will eventually get the gear from previous bosses and get the kill (unless all your team does is wipe on N Stone Guard, in which case LFR is probably your only shot at seeing the content anyway.)

[Cybran]

I agree with this but would add something. There's a practical reason why sharing lockouts is difficult. LFR raids are divided up into chunks which make them a different animal entirely from normal/heroics. This rarely gets mentioned when it comes up and I think that's a curious thing.

This would suck, but how many people who can ONLY do LFR care about normal? After all LFR is ONLY for sucky players to "see" content. They will still stick to LFR and never notice the difference. Normal raiders would just ignore LFR the same why they avoid pugging normal raids while their guild is still doing the raid later in the week. All i see is Blizzard grasping for straws.

As well, I don't think there's really a substantial mass movement about lockouts one way or the other in any case. Most people either don't care at all or never think about it.

There is actually. I been arguing about shared lockouts since June (you can find me in most of the threads). Blizzard's decision to totally ignore this issue shows that only care about keeping bad players happy.

The thread is about the disrespectful behavior of the CM. He just shits down on people and tries to insult us (mostly me).

[Suizid]

The thing is, Blizzard said LFR wont be mandatory - which is false as of yet. It's not about having another way to progress your char, its about being forced to do it, because if you dont, you probably miss out on gear upgrades you actually need for bosses like Elegon. OF COURSE there's a difference in skill level of the players, BUT it is also true that gear increases your stats and therefor your raid performance - JUST like doing your rotation.

---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 09:59 AM ----------



Post constructively, please. Since your "argument" doesnt hold any ground - like pointed out like 10 times in this thread alone.

It's just as mandatory as daily quests are, depends on guild. If you are in a guild where LFR is required every week, and you don't like to run it, maybe you should think about changing guild.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

This would suck, but how many people who can ONLY do LFR care about normal? After all LFR is ONLY for sucky players to "see" content. They will still stick to LFR and never notice the difference. Normal raiders would just ignore LFR the same why they avoid pugging normal raids while their guild is still doing the raid later in the week. All i see is Blizzard grasping for straws.

Ah, no.

A lot of good players do LFR because they can't meet raid schedules. You're associating casual with suck, and it's that same attitude that got that CM to post like he did.

The difference between LFR and normal raids aren't that much. Sure more mechanics in normal, but there isn't a bow shock upon entry. Blizzard wants players to graduate from LFR to normal, and if it feels like going from LFR to heroic, that won't happen. LFR gear ties into normal raids, too. Just wait if they lock LFR from normal/heroic raiders the uproar that would cause, since the so-called superior players go there all the time to pickup upgrades, and make folks in LFR miserable with their overblown egos. Nasty, nasty, nasty folks that are too greedy for their own good. It's even more intolerable when a 10 man guild group queues, and those 10 only look out for themselves, but bring their guild drama to the raid.