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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    They don't have time to do both normal AND LFR. Understand now?

    LFR isn't a route for those who can play normal/heroics to obtain their own "welfare epics". It's designed for those NOT doing normal/heroic raids. It's their end-game.

    It's double dipping, and even worse, at the expense of those in their end-game.

    How would you like heroic raiders descending on your normal raid, then stealing chances on loot you need for progression?

    Yeah, it's not fun if the double dipping now hurts your end-game.

    I hope they lock it from normal/heroic raiders. People in this game need to learn overhealing and overgearing is how this game got to be where it is today.

    Do you know why they can't let cows eat freely? Because they will literally eat themselves to death.

    If the normal/heroic raiders can't wait on RNG like the rest of us, lock LFR down.
    Still can't see the irony. Person A says you need to clear LFR weekly to down bosses in normal/heroic. I disagree and say not everyone in our raid runs it because they don't have time to do it weekly and we can still down bosses. How is it irony that not everyone uses LFR?

    And no, LFR is not made only for people that doesn't raid normal/heroics. It's made for all, serving a different purpose for each.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    1. The second half of the legendary chain collection doesn't drop anywhere near the frequency of the first (unless they changed how it works from beta to live, which we will not really know until today). Their previous stance is that you can't get the second ten items through LFR.

    2. I don't know what this was about so I will simply skip it.

    3. Elegon is not "just a DPS check". While the DPS is very important, the survivability and execution are what make the DPS so important. Again, if you're one of the ones that "NEEDS to outgear it to clear it", then you still don't "need" to do LFR. You NEED to farm the first four bosses on normal more.

    Let me ask you this, then. Sha of Anger. Is it "needed" to beat Elegon, too? Maybe we should remove it since it's pretty much LFR for trade chat.
    Just the first line proves that you've no idea about the simpliest mechanics in this game, let alone reading a quest text. You get the sigils of wisdom also in LFR at the same speed/frequency as the sigils of power, like already confirmed on wowhead. Since sha-touched weapons also drop in LFR (which isnt new and already pointed out in this thread), you're also able to complete the legendary gem quest throught LFR.

    Elegon is just a DPS check. We constantly wipe at 5% for the last week. And you hardly outgear MSV normal (489 ilvl) with MSV LFR (483 ilvl) gear. And seriously, Sha of Anger is pretty much a given since he drops 2 tier items which are 493 - and of course, like already said 10x, items are needed to beat bosses... now go figure.

  3. #123
    Didn't people go from heroics to entry level raids in BC, Wrath, and Cataclysm? (DS wasn't entry level, 4.0 raids were entry level)

    I don't recall those people crying about how they needed to pad their 'skill' with gear that they simultaneously ridicule because they are obviously skill-capped and shouldn't have to do that.

    Man, where did all of those people go?

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Suizid View Post
    I'd like to see all those people who run LFR weekly, gun pointed at their heads.


    Of course Blizzard wants everyone to run LFR, not really wise to make content and wish people doesn't use it.
    So, they design something to encourage people to run it (even though its supposed to be optional) and its surprising that people feel forced into doing it?
    Pointing a gun to someones head is one way to make people feel forced into to doing something but there are others. Who are you to say someone its wrong in how people feel about something? May I remind you that lots of people feel this way.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    So, they design something to encourage people to run it (even though its supposed to be optional) and its surprising that people feel forced into doing it?
    Pointing a gun to someones head is one way to make people feel forced into to doing something but there are others. Who are you to say someone its wrong in how people feel about something? May I remind you that lots of people feel this way.
    So pretty much anything they add to the game with a reward is forcing players to do something? The more things they add to the game, the more things you're "forced" to do? If you seriously feel like you're forced to do stuff you don't want to do in WoW, I'd suggest quitting now because it's not going to get any better. They're just going to add more features with associated rewards and you're just going to be back here complaining about it.

    Maybe you need to look for a game where there's absolutely nothing to do outside of raiding. That way you wouldn't feel forced to do anything besides raid.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Do you have to be in a "top guild" (whatever the definition of this would be) to not want to cripple your raid and possible hinder your -own- progression?
    No, but if you're not in a top guild it's VERY likely that you will see more improvement in your performance by practicing more. Subpar DPS need to spend time on the dummies getting their rotation down and experimenting with things. In virtually all cases where we see someone say "Hey, I'm being outDPSed by someone of my class who's in worse gear" or the like the correct answer is that the poster needs to figure out what they're doing wrong and correct it. This is harder to do for tanks and healers since there's not really a dummy equivalent, but people still need to learn their classes, analyze mistakes (the tank died... was he using defensive CD? Were the healers using CDs correctly?) and improve.

    The issue is that it's far easier and less boring to go get new gear that compensates for one's mistakes, plus it triggers that pleasure reflex we have when we get a reward. But if you or others are really serious about not holding your raid back and you're not already ranking on WoL, then get to it. Go practice and get better. After all, you don't want to cripple your raid, do you?

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    So pretty much anything they add to the game with a reward is forcing players to do something? The more things they add to the game, the more things you're "forced" to do? If you seriously feel like you're forced to do stuff you don't want to do in WoW, I'd suggest quitting now because it's not going to get any better. They're just going to add more features with associated rewards and you're just going to be back here complaining about it.

    Maybe you need to look for a game where there's absolutely nothing to do outside of raiding. That way you wouldn't feel forced to do anything besides raid.
    Where did I say I felt forced to do it? What Im saying is if people do feel forced to do something then its not really open for debate. If enough people feel this way and its not the intention then its bad design. You can rattle on all you like but you cant say they are wrong just because you dont understand them.

  8. #128
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    Where did I say I felt forced to do it? What Im saying is if people do feel forced to do something then its not really open for debate. If enough people feel this way and its not the intention then its bad design. You can rattle on all you like but you cant say they are wrong just because you dont understand them.
    In WoW it's always like that. It's the "keeping up with the Jones effect". It was no different in WotLK and Cata. WotLK "Need to be GS 5800 for ICC" or "Ilvl 393 for DS".

    It has always existed.

    But folks don't need to steal the end-game items from LFR raiders (that trinket is optional for the normal/heroic raider, it's the best the LFR raider is getting). They can do what they do when RNG is unfavorable...stick it out.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    Where did I say I felt forced to do it? What Im saying is if people do feel forced to do something then its not really open for debate. If enough people feel this way and its not the intention then its bad design. You can rattle on all you like but you cant say they are wrong just because you dont understand them.
    On this very forum, I remember seeing threads from people who complained that they felt forced to do pet battles for achievements or that they felt forced to run challenge modes for the transmog gear.

    What are we debating here? What people's personal feelings are or whether the LFR system(or pet battles or challenge modes) needs to be changed to appease a certain group of people who harbor said feelings?

    I don't really care how misc complainers on the WoW forums feel, but when people start demanding detrimental changes to a system that I and many others enjoy, then it certainly is up for debate.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    So, they design something to encourage people to run it (even though its supposed to be optional) and its surprising that people feel forced into doing it?
    Pointing a gun to someones head is one way to make people feel forced into to doing something but there are others. Who are you to say someone its wrong in how people feel about something? May I remind you that lots of people feel this way.
    So they feel forced to do something while having the option to not do it. And that option is changing guild. Blizzard sure as hell ain't forcing you to do anything, so it must be the guild.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    No, but if you're not in a top guild it's VERY likely that you will see more improvement in your performance by practicing more. Subpar DPS need to spend time on the dummies getting their rotation down and experimenting with things. In virtually all cases where we see someone say "Hey, I'm being outDPSed by someone of my class who's in worse gear" or the like the correct answer is that the poster needs to figure out what they're doing wrong and correct it. This is harder to do for tanks and healers since there's not really a dummy equivalent, but people still need to learn their classes, analyze mistakes (the tank died... was he using defensive CD? Were the healers using CDs correctly?) and improve.

    The issue is that it's far easier and less boring to go get new gear that compensates for one's mistakes, plus it triggers that pleasure reflex we have when we get a reward. But if you or others are really serious about not holding your raid back and you're not already ranking on WoL, then get to it. Go practice and get better. After all, you don't want to cripple your raid, do you?
    The problem is, its not me holding anyone back - I just want to progress, since the people in my raid arent good enought / dont care enought to further improve themselves. They arent retards standing in fires or dying due to heavy mistakes (not all of them, haha). I'm an ilvl 481 Elemental - got to 4/6 3 weeks ago with another group I got invited to, whereas our own raid managed 4/6 just by last sunday, after 3 hours wiping on Spirit Kings.

    Seriously, you dont have to tell me that the people in my raid arent bleeding edge professional raiders, BUT I want to progress... I DO my job and I want the reward for it. Sadly, I cant compensate all the terrible DPSers in my group... but when I reach a point of no return, its too late. Now please dont tell me to change guilds ......

  12. #132
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Beh, so sick of all those saying the have to run LFR. It's complete and utter bullshit and there is NO fucking way the gane forces you to do it.
    In the end it's all about YOUR playstyle choice. So you want to be competitive and your guild requires you to run LFR? THen it is your problem and your decision to make if you are willing to do that. And even that crap about getting an edge.... if you need the gear to get a competivie edge then you are in no competitive position to begin with.
    First week of MSV was cleared by guilds that were mostly in blues and had not set foot in LFR simply because it wasn't open. SO you don't NEED LFR thus there is NO NEED to run it.

    Just learn 2 play if your raid group can't make the enrage timer or something. It's not about gear, but getting execution done right and knowing your cooldowns and abilities.
    Man, so sick of this incessant whining about 'having' to do stuff.... it's a freaking game, not a job. If you want to be a competitive player then suck up the shit that comes with it. Just like in sports. Wanna be good? YOu have to train a lot and can't expect to just get there by getting the best sneakers, rackets or whatever...
    Never heard of a top tennis player say he lost a game because the opponent's racket was that much better than his....

    Grow a pair and do what's required or don't try. The playing field is the same for everyone, so.... the only thing holding you back is YOU.

  13. #133
    Epic! Detheavn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    They don't have time to do both normal AND LFR. Understand now?
    Personally I don't really understand how this is an issue. Back in WotLK we did both 10 and 25 man when they didn't share a raid lockout yet and no-one complained; we did it out of free will because we enjoyed killing shit and get a potential upgrade.

    Now if you had said: "They don't want to do LFR because they are stuck with 24 random people of varying from scrub to meh", then I would have maybe given you a point

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    The problem is, its not me holding anyone back - I just want to progress, since the people in my raid arent good enought / dont care enought to further improve themselves. They arent retards standing in fires or dying due to heavy mistakes (not all of them, haha). I'm an ilvl 481 Elemental - got to 4/6 3 weeks ago with another group I got invited to, whereas our own raid managed 4/6 just by last sunday, after 3 hours wiping on Spirit Kings.

    Seriously, you dont have to tell me that the people in my raid arent bleeding edge professional raiders, BUT I want to progress... I DO my job and I want the reward for it. Sadly, I cant compensate all the terrible DPSers in my group... but when I reach a point of no return, its too late. Now please dont tell me to change guilds ......
    You have 3 options here:
    1) Whine on the forums to get the game changed so you can kill bosses
    2) Get all your guildies to improve to the required level
    3) Change guilds to be with players that match your skill level.

    The options are clear, you need to decide about 2 or 3 because 1 isn't going to happen in a timeframe that will be acceptable to you.

  15. #135
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Do you have to be in a "top guild" (whatever the definition of this would be) to not want to cripple your raid and possible hinder your -own- progression?
    That's usually what the majority don't understand, henc the phrase world first have been claimed, no other guild progression matters.

    If your in a progressive guild, your expected (Not the same as required) to pursue every possible venue for upgrades.., and as such it feels forced having to visit LFR if you hate the very existence of that feature, which personally I can understand a lot do, simply due to the amount of people there who clearly have no issue getting the gear due to the roflstomp mode, but have a metric ton of excuses when it comes to learning they're own character or read the dungeon journal, time usually taking the top.
    On the same note though, it's again your choice if you want to be in a guild that is expecting you to run lfr for w/e reason, not blizzards fault!

    I run a progressive guild, as in each and every raider is expected to max they're character potential through every means necessary.., however, I've also said that LFR is not included in that venue simply because I personally refuse to add another count to the LFR usage statistic, and the only way to get a message through to blizzard, is to impact they're flawed statistics!
    Yes I know, a few fish in a big sea.., but hopefully it all adds up enough to change something.

    I do agree with Draztal on his reply though, LFR is by no means required in this expansion, nor is dailies since it's in the same ballpark when it comes to gear.., and personally I have to congratulate blizzard for the delayed opening of each LFR mode making it even less of an issue for normal / heroic raiders, I just hope they stick to it this time and don't decide to trash everything by early nerfing content.
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2012-11-07 at 09:30 AM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post

    It's double dipping, and even worse, at the expense of those in their end-game.

    How would you like heroic raiders descending on your normal raid, then stealing chances on loot you need for progression?

    Yeah, it's not fun if the double dipping now hurts your end-game.
    This quote makes everything you said and will ever say be equal to 0. It just shows how smart you really are... and I'll spoil it for you. You aren't at all.

    Stealing chances on loot? In a system that can drop 0 or 50 pieces of gear for each boss? In a system that doesn't have a set amount of items to distribute and it doesn't matter how many people get loot?

    Overhealing and overgearing didn't bring WoW here. People as dumb as you did.

  17. #137
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Seriously, you dont have to tell me that the people in my raid arent bleeding edge professional raiders, BUT I want to progress... I DO my job and I want the reward for it. Sadly, I cant compensate all the terrible DPSers in my group... but when I reach a point of no return, its too late. Now please dont tell me to change guilds ......
    Stop whining and do something about it and don't wait for others to help you...
    Go join a different guild but be prepared that they may require more than you are willing to do (especially in the long run). And don't come back here whining that all of a sudden you now MUST run LFR to get an edge in gear or run dailies to get epics to fill slots.... ot whatever. Just take some resposnibility here and stop blaming the game or anyone else.... SO what if the current guild is not cutting edge professionals, they probably fdon't want to be. If it bothers you, go find a group that's like minded.... ffs

  18. #138
    I am so happy 3rd boss in the new LFR is hard. I just wish all bosses in LFR were on his level instead of some loot pinatas.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    How would you like heroic raiders descending on your normal raid, then stealing chances on loot you need for progression?
    Yeah, it's not fun if the double dipping now hurts your end-game.
    You've lost me there. How do they "steal" or "hurt" exactly?

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    On this very forum, I remember seeing threads from people who complained that they felt forced to do pet battles for achievements or that they felt forced to run challenge modes for the transmog gear.

    What are we debating here? What people's personal feelings are or whether the LFR system(or pet battles or challenge modes) needs to be changed to appease a certain group of people who harbor said feelings?

    I don't really care how misc complainers on the WoW forums feel, but when people start demanding detrimental changes to a system that I and many others enjoy, then it certainly is up for debate.

    Then it s up to Blizzard to come up wth a suitable solution.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-07 at 08:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Suizid View Post
    So they feel forced to do something while having the option to not do it. And that option is changing guild. Blizzard sure as hell ain't forcing you to do anything, so it must be the guild.
    Competition is part of this game, Blizzard fully understand this and the consequences of their policies. I hope you arent suggesting its not their fault.

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