Does anyone else like that blue posters have got some backbone?

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Of course they can. They can also change their minds and say just that: "We changed our minds". Businesses do this all the time. Implied in your post is the idea that Blizzard is terrified of forum storms. I think they pay attention when they see one, but overly worried about them? No.

It's about trust, Moana. Making absolute statements and then changing them does not build it. They have to be vague.

This is a MUTUAL relationship. Not a dictatorship. SOE was burned alive for that style of managment. Blizzard has seen what player revolts can do, and yes, they would be naturally concerned to not have them.

To be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't pay attention to what people tell them or ignore suggestions. They should. But there's a certain point where patronizing your customer does more harm than good. Reasonable people can disagree about where that point is and do. I think they do it too much. Others may disagree and I have no problem with that.

I agree some posters on the forums don't help at all -- especially drivebys (why are they tolerated???). If Blizzard cleared the forums of those alone it would help tremendously, and up the signal to noise ratio. There's some really nasty, and I mean sociopathic, people who post there. If you heard them in vent on top of what they spewed on the forums, yeah, they need to be out of the game itself forget the forums. They hurt the game by hurting people itself. If they can't be nice to even themselves, how can a community expect them to be even sociable to them? BUT, Blizzard bans everyone else and keeps the drivebys...................

So what is there IS Blizzard's fault. They allowed the community and the culture to get to where it is now (on the forums and ingame). They have a very Libertarian view, but we're talking about kids who may come from broken homes who never got any home or social training, and someone besides the Law has to say, "that's not acceptable behavior". There's too much "just because" in this community and ingame. It may have brought everyone possible into WoW to play, but it does little to maintain a healthy community. We're talking BASIC social skills. How to act in groups even. That is how bad it has gotten. It went too far.

It IS a step in the right direction for Blizzard to show by example (because too many of the kids look up to them) what is acceptable behavior. That reply I hope isn't the last, but at the same time, Blizzard too has to accept criticism when necessary, too (not running a dictatorship...as gamers notoriously will buck such control).

[shanthi]

You would excel in customer service.

From my understanding, the blues are not customer service. If you want customer service, you can call their customer service line and you won't ever get any sarcasm. The blue posters are community managers or company representatives (who generally have other roles within the company...Ghostcrawler, for example, is obviously lead designer, but when he's interacting on the forums, it's as a representative of Blizzard and his design team). Their roles on the forum are to be moderators and to interact with players in order to communicate Blizzard's thinking on game issues and get player thinking on those issues.

In other words, they shouldn't be adhering to "customer service" standards of avoiding conflict at all costs. Ghostcrawler certainly doesn't...he's plenty willing to tell someone when their ranting is counterproductive. In their role as moderators, they should be telling posters when their behavior is unacceptable. And as company reps, they should be explaining their vision for the game, even when that conflicts with the opinions of the people they're talking with.

Nothing Draztal has said is at all problematic viewed through this lens, as far as I'm concerned. He's done a great job over the months in explaining Blizzard's and his views on raiding, despite constant abuse lobbed at him. He's never insulting, though once in a while he does unleash some very, very mild sarcasm. Again, he's not customer service so he's allowed to bring some human emotion to the conversation.

[Stuffs]

It still doesn't make it required. If the encounter is tuned for 463, then 476 gear simply isn't required. It will help, and there will be those that feel like they must do it, but in reality they are choosing to do it. LFR gear only becomes a requirement, if the skill just isn't there...

You're right, when we were struggling, like everyone else on Garajal 10H enrage back then, it was just because our dps sucks

[Kevyne-Shandris]

If your signature is correct and they've deleted 6,100 of your posts from the WoW forums... Damn, man. That's definitely 'your' fault. You're the one to blame, if you broke the forum code of conduct 6,100 times. Bloody hell.

Also, 'bad parenting model'? Sure... If they were our parents. Which they aren't. So that point is utterly irrelevant.

^^^ That's what folks mean by drivebys. ^^^

Adds nothing to the content of the thread itself, and goes straight into a personal attack. The WoW forums are littered with such people.

[PBitt]

I do. Whiners are annoying as fuck, people whine more about little things in videogames than I would whine about having both of my hands chopped off or something that would actually be worthy of whining. I'm glad Blizzard puts these little shits in their place. If you're old enough to be able to type you're old enough to not whine anymore.

[yjmark]

From my understanding, the blues are not customer service. If you want customer service, you can call their customer service line and you won't ever get any sarcasm. The blue posters are community managers or company representatives (who generally have other roles within the company...Ghostcrawler, for example, is obviously lead designer, but when he's interacting on the forums, it's as a representative of Blizzard and his design team). Their roles on the forum are to be moderators and to interact with players in order to communicate Blizzard's thinking on game issues and get player thinking on those issues.

Customer Service was being used as a generic term for people who interact/communicate with customers. Not specifically saying that blue posters on the forum are Customer Service representatives. Either way, when you interact with customers, there are standards. That was the point.

[Chrispotter]

I like the post for a different reason to you OP.
The Blue kind of admits that there is infact "mouth breathers" in this game. Although he says not to be mean to them, which i agree with, he at least kind of accepts that there are some terrible players in the game that ruin the game for others by being terrible. Yes im looking at YOU mr fall down elegon hole, then vote to kick me when i ask how you fell down.

[Durandro]

People need to stop confusing 'Elitist' with 'Elite'.

The Elite are the very best. They do everything possible to maximise their chances, and then put all their effort into taking on challenges and won't rest until they've defeated them.

The Elitists are people who think they are Elite, and act like they deserve respect that they've never earned. They proclaim how superior they are to everyone else, when in reality they are struggling to stay even slightly ahead of the pack.

Huge difference. The poster the Blue is demolishing is the latter, not the former.

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 08:33 PM ----------

I like the post for a different reason to you OP.
The Blue kind of admits that there is infact "mouth breathers" in this game. Although he says not to be mean to them, which i agree with, he at least kind of accepts that there are some terrible players in the game that ruin the game for others by being terrible. Yes im looking at YOU mr fall down elegon hole, then vote to kick me when i ask how you fell down.

Actually, he's not. He's taking the OP's words and sarcastically twisting them onto him. The only admission he's making is that there are gamers in the community who don't take the game as seriously, or don't play to a high standard.

[shokter]

That's not an elitist, thats just a douchbag. There's a difference. An elitist is someone who goes above and beyond to achieve the maximum or near the maximum or even striving to reach the maximum status of his/her character by any circumstance. This does not include their social interaction.

Elite =/ Elitist

[shanthi]

Customer Service was being used as a generic term for people who interact/communicate with customers. Not specifically saying that blue posters on the forum are Customer Service representatives. Either way, when you interact with customers, there are standards. That was the point.

Moderators engage with customers and are certainly not bound by the same standards as traditional customer service employees. Of course there are always standards, and there's no doubt that blue posters have a set of standards that they must follow. They're simply a different set of standards then the actual "customer service" employees must follow. That's the point. Not every employee in a company is bound by the "customer is always right" standard, nor should they be.

[Itisamuh]

I don't see anything unprofessional at all about that blue and the way he responds to people. I think it's great. He's made his point, time and again, and people continue to argue the same crap over and over again. I'm glad these guys are putting idiots in their place. The fact of the matter is, the community is absolutely horrible at times, and they shouldn't have to ignore it.

[Kelimbror]

All I'm really saying is that Blizzard should deal with customers honestly, directly and openly. If they don't intend to do X, they should say so with no snark or sarcasm. They shouldn't leave behind the impression that maybe they might change their minds if only there were another dozen threads about something. *snip* It's their game and they should own it.

On this note, I have no issue. They should communicate like that. It would have prevented a lot of problems/continuance of whining over the years.

From my understanding, the blues are not customer service. If you want customer service, you can call their customer service line and you won't ever get any sarcasm.

Then your understanding of customer service doesn't encompass the reality of the situation. Anyone that is an extension of the company should adhere to customer service standards. Most companies have this as a priority and legal writing in their code of conduct. I highly doubt that Blizzard is any different.

It's the reason why Bobby Kotick doesn't walk on stage for an investor call, drop his trousers while ramming 2 middle fingers up in the air and telling the investors to fuck off, they know what they are doing. Companies are a brand, an image to be sold. This translates all the way down to anyone in the company. I'm a peon for a large company and I have to sign several agreements to never speak on behalf of the company (ie, mention their name in any way) for fear of misconstruing their corporate position.

[Veliladon]

Its simple. If you play hardcore, you go for every advantage you can. As an extension, if there's an upgrade, you will do LFR if you treat progression raiding seriously. Hence, saying there's no reason for hardcores to do it is silly.

This. Some people think of the VP/LFR epics as carrots for casuals. For other people who want to be or are on the edge it's an invisible stick that beats you. In the back of your mind is the notion that if you don't suffer through this incredulous amount of tedium (which is all this bullshit really is) in order to take this small but noticeable advantage you aren't doing everything you can to help your raid be the best it can be and you're letting your entire team down.

And I broke. I couldn't do it any longer. So I no longer play. Which is sad because a good chunk of my social group went with it.

[Theholypally]

Some of the best players around don't talk like that, and don't engage in discussions in that manner. That is not an elitist, that's probably not even a decent player, that was just a douchebag. (Someone who thinks he's good but in reality isn't even close)

I'm almost certain that he's a nobody and he's just trying to be a prick. The blue called him on it.

[shanthi]

Then your understanding of customer service doesn't encompass the reality of the situation. Anyone that is an extension of the company should adhere to customer service standards.

No large company has the same set of standards for every group of employees that interact with customers. If you think otherwise, I'd have to say you're the one lacking a grasp on reality. If you think Ghostcrawler is bound by the same standards of interaction as a billing customer service agent, I don't know what to tell you.

Companies are a brand, an image to be sold. This translates all the way down to anyone in the company. I'm a peon for a large company and I have to sign several agreements to never speak on behalf of the company (ie, mention their name in any way) for fear of misconstruing their corporate position.

And companies protect their brand in different ways in different situations. Ghostcrawler's job is not purely to ask questions and get feedback, as some employees' role might be. Ghostcrawler is also empowered to argue, to explain why they will not be doing what certain people are asking for, etc. Blue posters are as much moderators of conversations as they are representatives...part of the way Blizzard protects its brand is by having their representatives keep a tight rein on discussions they take part in, preventing them from becoming unproductive or poisonous. If they have to rebuke someone to do that, they will.

Are you free to disagree with how they do this, or with their policies? Sure. But acting like there's an agreed-upon, objectively correct way to protect an image via customer interaction is absurd.

[gamingmuscle]

You're right, when we were struggling, like everyone else on Garajal 10H enrage back then, it was just because our dps sucks

A rankings list doesn't prove you are geared to the level that the encounter is tuned for. Because of where LFR falls in iLevels you are going to have to do some work to prove it is required.

The fact you can't beat an encounter itself does not make LFR required. Tuning for 463 LFR gear just lets you out gear skill issues. Tuning for 489...it may lessen the pain...cause well its better then 463...but its still not what is required. Tuned for 476 and its a bit grey area...because 476 is just a combination of 489 and 463. So what required is a combination of 489 and 463 and or/476.

LFR simply isn't required for progression, but ANY source of upgrades will be explored by the raiding community. Because we don't want to farm that extra week if we don't need to.

[Armourboy]

There are times when they need to be more professional ( aka when you are involved in a very hot topic like the Name listing on the forums issue was) and then there is times when its perfectly ok to be a bit snarky. To me this was one of those cases, and I thought the reaction was ok. The individual he was commenting too was being a douchecanoe.

As far as Raiders needing to do it, no there is no need to do so. The fact that guilds were able to clear it without doing so proves that. However, that doesn't mean that you wouldn't want to in order to make progression easier for those that aren't maybe as Elite as they would like to be.

I've always laughed about " elite harcore" players bitching that they had to do lesser raids. If you are that hardcore you wouldn't care, because imo that's part of being hardcore. TBH the true elite players aren't bitching about doing LFR because they can do it without it, or they just jump in and do it because that's what they expect out of themselves. I tend to think its the second tier and the elitests that bitch about this crap, because they do need it because they aren't as good as they think they are.

Those that bring up Tseric also need to remember that he got nailed because it got personal between him and the Shaman forums. It wasn't just him making a generally comment, he got personal, and that is a line you can't cross as a blue poster.

[yjmark]

Moderators engage with customers and are certainly not bound by the same standards as traditional customer service employees. Of course there are always standards, and there's no doubt that blue posters have a set of standards that they must follow. They're simply a different set of standards then the actual "customer service" employees must follow. That's the point. Not every employee in a company is bound by the "customer is always right" standard, nor should they be.

I would bet all of them are supposed to "not sarcastically insult the customer".

And Customer Service is never bound by "the customer is always right". That is archaic. However, most are bound by "Do not directly insult the customer".

[dokilar]

i like that they have some spunk to them, but it seems like if there is any amount of criticism they try and spin it around. i understand that they work for blizzard and their job is to try and focus on the positive but i dont think ive ever read a thread on the WoW forums where the thread was talking about a legit problem and one of the blues simply saying "yes we were wrong"

also a lot of the threads ive read in the past that talk about the toxicity of the community are met with almost pure denial from the blues. the wow community is in my opinion not the worst community but i think a lot of people would agree it has its large share of douchers and its like the blues are in denial about them.

note that i said i dont think ive ever read, im not implying there hasnt been a case where they have admitted they were wrong. just my 2 cents

[shanthi]

I would bet all of them are supposed to "not sarcastically insult the customer".

And since Draztal didn't do that, I guess we're all on the same page of considering his response well within reasonable standards.