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  1. #1
    High Overlord
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    Nov 2011
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    Sweden
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    Let's talk demo pvp!

    Hello.

    Right now I play afflicton "full time", both in PvP and PvE. I like it a lot, even if the spec is not that great right now in PvP. And no, I'm not saying it's bad either. But the general conception does seem to be that it is.

    Destro seems to be viable too, but God it's boring. Affliction will have to get a lot worse before I even try it.

    After watching some high rated streams I noticed how a lot of warlocks actually go demo now, which probably hasnt happened since TBC. Has anyone else tried it with any success? Share your thoughts about glyphs, stats, spec, general playstyle (how on earth do you play it best in arenas?) and all that jazz.

    Note that I'm speaking of (high) rated arena play here, no BGs or duels. Now, shoot!

  2. #2
    On the low levels of 2v2 (Dunno if you consider as a rated arena play), you can see a lot of people popping imps directly for some df along with kiting, then pop DS and meta and go nuts. However, it is a bit deeper into that. Simply, assuming that you are on a 3v3 game since 2v2 is basicly "Who does the bigger burst lets see" game, aim is forcing people to use their defensive cds and on the gap, immediately popping cooldowns and finishing it with a rampage.

    Basicly, the idea is kiting people around with Gul'dan snare, getting fury via corruptions, shadowflames and felflames. The biggest blessing of demo is auras. On a half GCD and a little fury, you have an awesome effect which persists even if you swap out of your form. You can alternatively cast it on everyone on your sight, however it will turn into a pain as it has decreased duration on players and needs to be recast extremely often. GoServ is the way, however I just could not fit keybinds for all pets of GoServ, so I was stuck with Felguard, which isnt bad.

    Dont be afraid of using chaos wave on a bunch of enemies, it does so much pressure that even breaking cc's can be on topic on the opener as the enemy healer will burn their mana extremely fast. Carrion Swarm is your friend and there were times that I used it on each CD. Especially that makes reckless warriors waste their charges in a row, leaving you with a free portal without being worried about gap closers. Having a ranged partner alongside makes the bridge your best friend. Depending on opponent composition, if you think the fights will last long, you can think about using doom on every target with your buffs if noone on the opposite team is dispelling those. Basicly your aim is somehow like this:
    -Aim 500 fury
    -Let your partner force the opponent while you are building a bit more fury
    -Pop your stuff and use all the tools mentioned above

    A big tip: Carrion Swarm's range is quite big (I dont know if its related with my Mannoroth's Fury) so when you are going to save your friends with it, you dont necessarily need to use leap. Just indicate the knockback range and do your calculations around that. It is a perfect escaping tool.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Naojirou View Post
    The biggest blessing of demo is auras. On a half GCD and a little fury, you have an awesome effect which persists even if you swap out of your form.
    True, but the range of the Auras got stealth nerfed on the PTR (I for one haven't seen any blues and a reason for this change), it's down to 20 yards now, significant nerf.

  4. #4
    i wonder about glyphs. atm i run healthstone, imp swarm and demon training, cause thats what i saw nadagast using. but im actually thinking swapping one of the glyphs in favour of dark apotheosis cause its such a nice defensive stance. only thing i do not understand about that glyph is that if you cancel the dark apotheosis form, you apparently loose most of ur fury, even if u had very high fury, it goes way down.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by gbtg View Post
    i wonder about glyphs. atm i run healthstone, imp swarm and demon training, cause thats what i saw nadagast using. but im actually thinking swapping one of the glyphs in favour of dark apotheosis cause its such a nice defensive stance. only thing i do not understand about that glyph is that if you cancel the dark apotheosis form, you apparently loose most of ur fury, even if u had very high fury, it goes way down.
    that is because http://www.wowhead.com/spell=114175(demonic slash) gives 60 df. so you could use it as a df builder instead of a def cd

  6. #6
    I think Demo is the way to go at the moment based on both personal experience and what I've seen top warlocks doing. Destro damage is too easy to prevent and affliction just isn't suited to the current state of the game.

    The aura of enfeeblement can be pretty game breaking vs both melee cleaves and wizards.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by gbtg View Post
    i wonder about glyphs. atm i run healthstone, imp swarm and demon training, cause thats what i saw nadagast using. but im actually thinking swapping one of the glyphs in favour of dark apotheosis cause its such a nice defensive stance. only thing i do not understand about that glyph is that if you cancel the dark apotheosis form, you apparently loose most of ur fury, even if u had very high fury, it goes way down.
    i noticed that too, and find it rather irritating. and it only seems to drain the bar above a given treshold..and not even every time. i didn't care that much to further investigate the mechanic since i'm still leveling my lock. but an information in the tooltip would have been helpful.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bogdan View Post
    True, but the range of the Auras got stealth nerfed on the PTR (I for one haven't seen any blues and a reason for this change), it's down to 20 yards now, significant nerf.
    Anyone can confirm that? Because that sounds like the most useless nerf ever... The only reason i could think of was to reduce Weakness (I know its not called that now lol but i still do) uptime on untargetted casters in PvP, but since you can just use the casted version and pop Elements aura instead, the change only really affects PvE, and only when single-targetting from max range... Aka, its not really affecting anyone.

    P.S. you can double curse as Demo, something that can be quite usefull heh. 1 curse + 1 aura (in case you didnt know).

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 04:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Azari View Post
    i noticed that too, and find it rather irritating. and it only seems to drain the bar above a given treshold..and not even every time. i didn't care that much to further investigate the mechanic since i'm still leveling my lock. but an information in the tooltip would have been helpful.
    The glyph removes everything but 200 fury (the base) when you switch our of it. The reason is that DA is VERY survivable, essentially as much as any tank spec would be in PvP thanks to the 10 sec shield. If it didnt remove the fury, you could just sit in tank mode till you are full then blow someone up in meta and returtle right after. It would be like warriors having SW and DS up at all time except when their offensive CDs are used.
    Last edited by Nikijih; 2012-11-06 at 04:29 PM.

  9. #9
    I play demo at ~1750 in 2s and ~1650 in 3s (lock/rogue/boomkin, I know). I was initially very confused by Nadagastt's build: SacPac, Sup, Howl, Blood Fear. That's really weird and makes no sense, I said. But with GoDT and a Wrathguard out, you get a 228k shield every minute that's off the GCD and can be used in stuns. Your observer heals for a surprising amount and takes buffs from casters at clutch moments. That's huge. Howl takes care of a lot of things, and allows my rogue to sap out of howl. Blood Fear is almost necessary now. It provides so much control. As demo out of demon form, you always want to be moving. You should ever cast anything besides your portal. I don't even run with a trinket for extra PVP Power. Right now I'm at 41.5%.

    Essentially, this is demo in a nutshell: you run around setting the terms of engagement while building fury using imps, corruption, fel flame, and if a hunter's horn goes out and howl doesn't work, you hellfire (or do so when you don't mind not CCing/breaking CC). Then you coordinate a CC chain with your partners and focus someone down after meta/trinket/DS. You can Chaos Wave if you want and don't mind hitting everything around you but I prefer to simply single target ToC spam my way to victory. Don't forget, there's a delay before fear breaks after you do damage to someone, so Blood Fear can be used to score a kill if someone's low enough, as can Soul Fire, but that gets risky. Usually we get kills very quickly.

    You should never forget that you're a warlock, though, not a warrior, and you are in control and meant to control the battlefield. Burst is secondary, to be used only at the right moments.

  10. #10
    The issue I have with that build jtth is that (A) you are missing a huge chunk of on-demand burst by not taking Servitude, and (B) with neither PvP trinket nor Unbound Will, you will simply not be doing this "always want to be moving" part.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    Anyone can confirm that?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    The issue I have with that build jtth is that (A) you are missing a huge chunk of on-demand burst by not taking Servitude, and (B) with neither PvP trinket nor Unbound Will, you will simply not be doing this "always want to be moving" part.
    I'm rarely trained because of my comp; most would rather hit the boomkin. I'm debating a trinket, but right now the extra pvp power is very effective. The service felguard is nice, and that's how I used to play, but an extra 40k on my shield is very useful if and when I do get trained. You're right, though, I can get CC'd, and as we move higher I'll probably have to take a trinket. Taking Unbound Will, though, is a mistake: Blood Fear is just too powerful right now if you consider the job of the lock to control enemy positioning.

  13. #13
    pretty sure nada said he only takes grimmoire of supremacy over service if his comp need the improved legion strike

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by gbtg View Post
    pretty sure nada said he only takes grimmoire of supremacy over service if his comp need the improved legion strike
    Improved LS is very helpful in triple dps.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bogdan View Post
    you've made sure you're using MF ,right ?

    I don't even run with a trinket for extra PVP Power.
    this is a mistake, you need trinket , if it was even remotely viable to run without a trinket people would have done so already but you really need it for obvious reasons, maybe right now your comp and the people facing you are not really giving u a hard time with CCs etc, but the higher you go the more you will know that u cannot play without it.

    as for the whole nadagast thing, its funny to see people commenting on his glyphs/ talents, he runs without DA glyph simply because it's a risk though he can pull it off, without DA glyph he can maximize his fury usage purely on meta which is much more significant than wasting time having to swap back and forth from DA/caster which gimps his fury regen, though he can only pull it off because of who he is and who his partners are, they have almost perfect coordination to avoid situations that could kill him instantly which greatly increases the effectiveness of his choices, overall it's very risky but he can take the chance.

    also , service vs sup, it's clear service is the better burst, though you lose a lot of survivability from going service, your pet's hp drops a lot which means sac pact absorbs less , not to mention dropping your pet's hp further when it is already 2 shottable is very risky, overall I'd state GoSup as a more stable choice for offense/defense and service a more aggressive playstyle where you have to trade off some more survivability for pets/ yourself for that extra burst and stun/silence.
    Last edited by wholol; 2012-11-07 at 02:22 AM.

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Zinnin's Avatar
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    I have been running GoSac at ~1800 mmr.

    Basically my play-style with it is running Fel Guard out the majority of the time but saccing just during DS for the increased burst damage, almost always leading with the Fel Guard stun. As long as your pet isn't getting trained you always get Demonic Rebirth after saccing your pet, so if the burst fails getting your pet back out is pretty easy.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikijih View Post
    The issue I have with that build jtth is that (A) you are missing a huge chunk of on-demand burst by not taking Servitude, and (B) with neither PvP trinket nor Unbound Will, you will simply not be doing this "always want to be moving" part.
    Wrathguard inflicts 25% healing reduction. Felguard, just 10%. Also bumps Sacrifical Pact up from 180k shield to 220k. Lastly, Wrathguard is slightly harder to kill.
    Last edited by Tya; 2012-11-07 at 03:12 AM.

  18. #18
    Destro look completely awful and uninteresting against decent players and affliction PvP feel like trying to force a square through a round hole.
    Demono look extremely uninteresting, running around spamming instant cast, but from playing against it and seeing on HL streams, Meta burst+Aura truly get shit done, so i'd say it's the best PvP spec right now but I still have to try it

  19. #19
    Yeah destro only works against bads. Nearly all high rated locks are demo. http://www.crossladder.com/arena/ladder/m=players;c=9

    Chaos Bolt is just too easy to stop.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    you've made sure you're using MF ,right ?
    No, I haven't I thought I have it since on live I'm playing with it all the time, but I switched for KJ's Cunning to test it... Thanks for realizing this. My bad.

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