1. #1

    Few questions. Is ele THAT bad? How are rogues? are dps monks any good in arena?

    Q1:
    Are ele shammys really that bad or are bads just bad at playing?
    from what I see, we get redic amounts of free LvBs from mastery and the talent, even though the dmg might be low, yes sure ascendance is cc'able, but don't pop it in the middle of the arena with 3 ppl on you. put out pressure, cc, then pop it near a pole, then come out to burst, and don't LET them cc it out.
    as for the stun totem, people are bitching about the 5 second cast time.. well.. pop it early then port it near the person(s) you want to cc 4 seconds later?

    I quit wow a year before mop came out, so all of this is speculation; which is why im asking.

    Q2:
    my second 85 was a rogue. are rogues any good in MOP? I only eve played sub; i haven't the slightest clue how to play any other spec. how hard would it be to adapt? I hear the specs are immensely different.
    (tis is a balance and gameplay question)

    Q3:
    Are dps monks FUN to play? Are they good in arena? And whats the skillcap?

  2. #2
    WW is underrated. After the nerfs to other classes they will be good. They are getting rid of Gag order, but the monk version of Gag order will stay in the game.
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  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Classes are poorly represented because there are stronger alternatives, not because the entire game somehow sucks at a spec. There's no reason to play an elemental shaman when you can get better results as a spriest or mage. Yes, shaman can do a lot of damage if they're freecasting, but that just isn't going to happen. Elemental isn't a very durable target so you'll get trained for the entirety of most games, and your damage will drop to nearly nothing. Even if they're trying to control you rather than kill, there's no way hiding behind a pillar for a second will let you stack cooldowns and freecast someone unnoticed. Maybe certain comps will lack the CC to waste your ascendance in that situation, but if you're across the map like that they could easily line you while you're in africa. The bottom line for elemental shaman is they just can't deal with pressure. A cooldown poly and a clunky/slow stun (also with a cooldown) is pretty weak CC. And yes, everyone else seems to have figured out how totemic projection works too.

    Can't answer your other two questions all that thoroughly, but neither class is really shining right now. They are the two weakest melee classes, and the only ones you don't see too many of. I think the biggest problem for both is damage-related. Neither one seems to have the scary burst potential of pretty much every other class. They've got quite a bit of control and are good at grinding someone down, but in a team situation that just means you have a much bigger window to be peeled.

    Taking a bit of a guess on the monk specifics, but I think they could be a little frustrating to play due to their skill requirements. They're probably an outlier in terms of a skill class--judging range on gap closers and unforgiving positional requirements on your blanket/incapacitate would mean skill really stands out as a monk.

  4. #4
    Imo monks are close to rogues gameplay wise, but suffering from lots of punishing mechanics like their mobility being direction based instead of target based. I still think that compared to DKs in WoLTK Blizz really didn't put enough work in monk class (not balance wise but mechanic wise - seriously energy bar with combo points on player instead of target, so inovative...). The result is close to enchacement shamans in Cata (no clue about now, i've yet to see one) - punishing mechanics, no defenitive niche spot resulted in extremly low success rate overall (and those who succeded could've done it with any other class). Ofc it's still early to jump to conclusions, but atm it looks like monks won't be in top list of threatening classes.

  5. #5
    Sorry to say, but rogues, arent in a great spot, damage isnt TOO bad, but mobility is suffering (for example, prep/shadowstep, having to pick between the two, yet other classes get prep v 2.0 as baseline!) - and the specs, well, they have never been far apart, each one is very easy to learn and doesnt vary much

    combat = keep SnD up, use rupture and evisc with spare cp.
    Ass = keep SnD up(easy with passive), keep rupture up, envenom as much as poss.
    Sub = keep SnD up(engy ticks), keep rupture up, evisc where possible.

    I could be wrong, Im not the greatest rogue, but thats a fairly BASIC assessment of each spec :P its not complex atall

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Raldazzar View Post
    Sorry to say, but rogues, arent in a great spot, damage isnt TOO bad, but mobility is suffering (for example, prep/shadowstep, having to pick between the two, yet other classes get prep v 2.0 as baseline!) - and the specs, well, they have never been far apart, each one is very easy to learn and doesnt vary much

    combat = keep SnD up, use rupture and evisc with spare cp.
    Ass = keep SnD up(easy with passive), keep rupture up, envenom as much as poss.
    Sub = keep SnD up(engy ticks), keep rupture up, evisc where possible.

    I could be wrong, Im not the greatest rogue, but thats a fairly BASIC assessment of each spec :P its not complex atall
    Well every class have ups and downs, but generally shadowstep itself is a better design then monks mobility moves since it factors enemy movement (same as warriors charge). Warriors heroic leap is better then monk gap closers too becouse of better range and ground target placement. Rogues have their share of issues ofc, mostly tied with cooldown times remaining too long (unless they drop mobility and go for prep). That problems can be easilly cured with removement of prep, cd adjustment and addition of another 1 mobility move (to compliment talent tier). Monks mobility moves are too obvious, evadable with movement. Also surprise factor isn't the same as redirect-ShS-6 sec kidney done in a moment.

    Subjectively it feels like rogues need tweaks to rise back to their glory whille monks have mechanics that're holding them back. But then again it's entirely possible to be an issue of being a new class and we might see some monk setup dominating ladder with time.

  7. #7
    Monks are in quite a bad state at the moment. The only good thing they have is the execute and the mobility.They lack everything else

    Rogues are okayish most people don't play them right they still think their purpose in arena is to do damage however they are there for CC'ing and peeling not for doing uberleet damage.

    And ele..well strong offheals. OP even and ascendance is good too but can be countered. Easily. Can't really say much about elemental

  8. #8
    Monks don't have much of an execute. It's a long cooldown and only used on non-player targets. It's nothing like the warrior's execute and shouldn't really be called an execute at all.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleepz View Post

    Rogues are okayish most people don't play them right they still think their purpose in arena is to do damage however they are there for CC'ing and peeling not for doing uberleet damage.
    Since everyone has cc now and dmg now that statement doesn't really work anymore. On top of this everyone's cc is better versions that have no cost and/or shorter cd's.

    "Quick clarification: some rogue mechanics were "eclipsed by newer/shinier versions"? Other class' versions? Confusing wording."

    "Yeah. Many rogue abilities cost resources or have long cooldowns. Newer versions for other classes often free, instant, short."
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...83478502125570

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by algroshaw View Post
    Q1:
    Are ele shammys really that bad or are bads just bad at playing?
    from what I see, we get redic amounts of free LvBs from mastery and the talent, even though the dmg might be low, yes sure ascendance is cc'able, but don't pop it in the middle of the arena with 3 ppl on you. put out pressure, cc, then pop it near a pole, then come out to burst, and don't LET them cc it out.
    as for the stun totem, people are bitching about the 5 second cast time.. well.. pop it early then port it near the person(s) you want to cc 4 seconds later?
    Ele is alright.

    Ele is all about comp, burst, and being a support class. You have these very useful totems: capacitor totem with a 4 second stun, healing stream totem that ticks for 20k-60k, earthgrab totem for roots, usable fire / earth totems in arenas now, windwalk totem to have a freedom, grounding totem to eat cc / burst, tremor to break fears that have already been cast, etc. You have glyph of purge, which lets you clean a target MUCH faster, which is amazing. Decent off heals, which definitely aren't the best. A shear on a 12/15 second cd. Hex, which is an alright cc. SWG which lets you cast any spell while moving, as long as it wasn't dispelled.

    I mean, what more could you ask for? Shamans are a hybrid class, they aren't expected to pull out the numbers a pure dps class would be doing (mage, hunter, lock) but are doing well outside of being trained / focused.

    PvP is all about the comp you run. LSD right now, is amazing for ele shamans. With Destro locks doing tons of damage with multiple embers and being able to throw out 100k-200k chaos bolts, or if your lock runs Affliction, is still amazingly well with the spread damage and great cc. Thundercleave is also being brought back from Wotlk because warriors are in such a ridiculous state right now, with the damage, peels, and cc.

    Ele is all about comp, burst, and being a support class. They could use a little fine tweaking, I'm sure, but ele is in a fine state right now to be played at a high, competitive level. Don't complain.

  11. #11
    Ele shamans aren't bad, but they depend on the comp they're running with.


    Rogues and monks are about on par right now, both being weak in comparison to fotm classes - warriors,hunters and mages. When the latter ones get nerfed, rogues and monks will be in an okay place.

  12. #12
    Ele is bad due to its low burst compared to other classes. It's also entirely RNG depedent. If your mastery and echos proc a bunch woo! 200k burst in 2 gcds. If nothing procs at all..well... Your burst becomes healable by a ret paladin.

    Rogues, and DPS monks suffer from the same issue right now. Anything they can do, warrior can do 100x better. No one can burst as hard as a warrior, Warriors have the best survival CDs of the melee(arguably, Dks could be argued to have better), and teams are currently based around "can you stop a warriors burst?" Best way to do that: burst them first.

    Monks excel at caster killers though. For the most part, casters can't escape them.

    In short: When Warriors get nerfed, DK, WW, Rogue, and pretty much every other class will be better. The problem isn't these classes - it's just warriors batshit broken OP. I seriously can't believe TFB made it through the planning stages, it seriously sounds like someone brought up a terrible joke "Hey, Let's let warriors heroic strike crit for 600k if they hold it" that someone actually took seriously.
    Last edited by Yoshimiko; 2012-11-06 at 05:11 PM.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Strah View Post

    Rogues and monks are about on par right now, both being weak in comparison to fotm classes - warriors,hunters and mages. When the latter ones get nerfed, rogues and monks will be in an okay place.
    So from weak to ok sounds like great classes...


    edit:
    Looks like blizzard still holding to 300k heroic striikes are just a l2p issue so 5.1 probably won't fix war burst.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...473?page=6#107

    And even without gag order warriors are still better than any other melee unless more nerfs are coming warriors will still be insane in 5.1. Which means there will still be no reason to ever take a monk or rogue over a warrior.
    Last edited by wow; 2012-11-06 at 05:55 PM.

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=alexyuh123;19009254]Ele is alright./[QUOTE]

    No, ele is not alright.

    You have these very useful totems: capacitor totem with a 4 second stun
    which is extremely unreliable since ppl just can walk away from it, cause its charging time is 5 sec normal and 3 sec glyphed, or it can just be killed with 'spitting' on it; usually one will just move a bit, intentionally or unintentionally and you will waste totem in vain. The only more or less 'reliable' way to stun is to pair it with earthgrab, with capacitor totem glyph and with totemic projection. Which sucks alot - wasting 1 talent and 1 glyph just for reliable stun?

    healing stream totem that ticks for 20k-60k
    healing stream ticks for 9k outside pvp areas, inside it it ticks less cause all pvp healing is gimped. You prolly refer to healing tide totem. lvl 75 tier talent, which ticks for about 15k noncrit outside pvp, and considerably less in pvp areas. This totem is kinda HoT spell which elemental shaman doesnt have, unlike moonkin or (in some degree) spriest. Numbers this big might be seen at resto shamans, but never at ele.

    Problem with this totem is as with all other totems - it is easily killable. Even mediocre players are going for it, cause its animation screams 'kill me kill me' and is exactly the same as for mana tide totem.

    earthgrab totem for roots, usable fire / earth totems in arenas now, windwalk totem to have a freedom, grounding totem to eat cc / burst, tremor to break fears that have already been cast, etc.
    Earthgrab and windwalk are same tier talents. So decide - want you to be able to root, or you want group-wide blessing of freedom? Majority of shamans will choose earthgrab since that is the only mechanism to keep melee at least few seconds away. But the problem is - every melee now has so many utilities to close the gap you made. Which leads me to the first mandatory glyph - glyph of ghost wolf. Once this was talent, now you must glyph it to work as it did in cata.

    Even with glyphed wolf and earthgrab dont expect to have more than few seconds of melee pressure - it wont happen ever. And i mean - ever. You just dont have reliable mechanism to keep melee away, end of story. You might think that earthgrab and thunderstorm are enough, but they arent. With double, charge, double grip, all those silences, stuns, snares and slows melee classes and specs have, you just cannot find enough time to actually do any significant damage against them.

    Which leads me to dps problem - in arenas, you will always have melee at your back. Always. Why? Cause every melee class knows that you cannot do a crap, practicaly you cannot cast anything, so they will press you over and over and over again.

    [quote]You have glyph of purge, which lets you clean a target MUCH faster, which is amazing.[/quit]

    Purge glyph is proly the strongest glyph shaman can obtain, so lets say that should be second mandatory glyph. Now, we have 2 mandatory heals.

    Decent off heals, which definitely aren't the best.
    'Arent the best' should be actually - worst heals of all hybrids. Hell even enhancement shaman has much stronger heals than ele, not to mention spriests, moonkins, and even ret paladins.

    A shear on a 12/15 second cd.
    It is 12 sec with 3 sec silence, which i like more than previous 6/5 sec with 1 sec silence (practicaly was only interrupt).

    Hex, which is an alright cc.
    Hex is, mildly speaking, 'debatable' cc. Just compare it to fears, poly, or cyclone. It has enormous cd (45 sec) and yet hexed target doesnt lose totaly control over their actions and frogs can even cast some spells. Granted, it is more robust then poly (hex wont break after first damage), but it is still so much inferior than any other form of caster CC.

    SWG which lets you cast any spell while moving, as long as it wasn't dispelled.
    it will buy you just a few seconds more. After that, you will be either trained again by melee, CC-ed by range, or silence by melee/range. Take a pick.

    I mean, what more could you ask for? Shamans are a hybrid class, they aren't expected to pull out the numbers a pure dps class would be doing (mage, hunter, lock) but are doing well outside of being trained / focused.
    What more? More defensive utilities. More dmg mitigation. More mechanism to run away, or more mechanism to keep melee in place. Anyway, spriest, another hybrid, are pulling numbers similar to mage, hunter, or lock. Despite that it has so much utilities for CC and to simply stay alive, unlike elemental shaman.

    PvP is all about the comp you run. LSD right now, is amazing for ele shamans. With Destro locks doing tons of damage with multiple embers and being able to throw out 100k-200k chaos bolts, or if your lock runs Affliction, is still amazingly well with the spread damage and great cc. Thundercleave is also being brought back from Wotlk because warriors are in such a ridiculous state right now, with the damage, peels, and cc.
    Why would LD part od LSD combo actualy bother to take ele shaman at all? They can just take another caster (mage, spriest) and go for arena rankings so much faster and with less frustration.

    Ele is all about comp, burst, and being a support class. They could use a little fine tweaking, I'm sure, but ele is in a fine state right now to be played at a high, competitive level. Don't complain.
    Frankly, i really cannot see who will pick ele over any other viable class/spec when making arena team. Right now ele is at the bottom of arena viability, together with rogues and MW monks.

    If you dont believe me, feel free to try. Granted, there are ppl who will make very good rankings as elemental shamans, but the point is - if they pick another class, their rating would be much higher.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by alexyuh123 View Post
    I mean, what more could you ask for? Shamans are a hybrid class, they aren't expected to pull out the numbers a pure dps class would be doing (mage, hunter, lock) but are doing well outside of being trained / focused.
    Survivability. Iceblock/deterence/dispersion. Hell, barkskin's useable-while-stunned adds significant value compared to astral shift.

    There is little reason not to train an ele shaman. They don't have a good enough defensive CD to warrant a target switch. Riding them significantly reduces their damage, and takes their off-healing pretty much to 0. Their CC is better used offensively then defensively (capacitor in particular is difficult to use effectively defensively).

    So the ele purges/interrupts/tremors while their teammates try to keep them alive. It's not a compelling or fun playstyle.

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