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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexN View Post
    I also have the icelance glyphed, but they don't show up like this. Also doesn't explain the frostfirebolt and frostbolt extra entries. I'm interested to see if anyone can explain these, cause they seem to be a nice dps boost
    Do you have icy veins glyphed? Those extra hits are probly those second entries

  2. #22
    sef24 .. how about those extra FFB's and FB's ? Any idea on those ?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexN View Post
    sef24 .. how about those extra FFB's and FB's ? Any idea on those ?
    he just sqaid glyphed icy veins.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sef24 View Post
    Do you have icy veins glyphed? Those extra hits are probly those second entries
    Yes you're right that's it.

    I know glyphed icy veins is a significant dps loss at my level of haste but.. I like it @_@ haha
    I should probably switch back for testing purposes though

  5. #25
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Yes you're right that's it.

    I know glyphed icy veins is a significant dps loss at my level of haste but.. I like it @_@ haha
    I should probably switch back for testing purposes though
    While I found it fun at first to use the glyph I now prefer it unglyphed. Having faster bomb tick, frostbolts and faster evocating seems better. If you use alter time to extend it and you have all your procs up as frost your more likely to waste procs with it glyphed as well.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2012-11-07 at 06:25 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    While I found it fun at first to use the glyph I now prefer it unglyphed. Having faster bomb tick, frostbolts and faster evocating seems better. If you use alter time to extend it and you have all your procs up as frost your more likely to waste procs with it glyphed as well.
    Not exactly since you'll be gaining procs more slowly as well as spending them more slowly, but your first point is pretty much right. At low levels of haste (which obviously if going for crit you'll barely have any haste) unglyphed is much better

  7. #27
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Not exactly since you'll be gaining procs more slowly as well as spending them more slowly, but your first point is pretty much right. At low levels of haste (which obviously if going for crit you'll barely have any haste) unglyphed is much better
    With the glyph you'll get FoF procs from frostbolt 3 times faster but without it you'll get Brain Freeze procs and FoF procs form frostbolt 20% faster. Because you can have 2 FoF charges at once to me it seems you would be more likely to waste procs with it glyphed especially since the glyph also affects your elemental.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2012-11-07 at 07:43 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    With the glyph you'll get FoF procs from frostbolt 3 times faster but without it you'll get Brain Freeze procs and FoF procs form frostbolt 20% faster. Because you can have 2 FoF charges at once to me it seems you would be more likely to waste procs with it glyphed especially since the glyph also affects your elemental.
    I dont have any hard info on this but im pretty sure it only triggers FOF on the first strike even with glyphed IV. The frost guide mentions a hidden +20% modifier

  9. #29
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    I dont have any hard info on this but im pretty sure it only triggers FOF on the first strike even with glyphed IV. The frost guide mentions a hidden +20% modifier
    How the increased 20% chance is applied isn't specified though. It could still have a chance to proc on every hit and does the 20% increased chance also affect your elementals' chance? Also is it a flat 20% increase making it a 32% chance or multiplicative making it a 14.2% chance?(I assume the former)

    I do agree with you though. If the chance was per hit you would either have so many FoF procs you couldn't use them or the 20% bonus would have to spread out through the 3 hits or something which seems overly complicated.

    I'm probably just overthinking it. I do wonder if it's a dps gain to glyph as soon as you hit the cap though? I understand it would be after you were several percent higher haste past the cap but I wonder if there's a point where you can be over the cap but shouldn't glyph? This of course is only relevant when icy veins is active. On it's 3 minute cooldown it's probably not as important but once you get the 4 piece tier 14 bonus it's going to have a fair bit more uptime with it's halved cooldown.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2012-11-07 at 09:17 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamdwelf View Post
    he just sqaid glyphed icy veins.
    Ah, sorry, I misread it. It could be the glyphed Icy Veins indeed.

  11. #31
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    34.4%(1.12*1.2), only on the first bolt of the three.

  12. #32
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    34.4%(1.12*1.2), only on the first bolt of the three.
    Thanks for confirming that.

    Still wondering if it's really best to glyph icy veins immediately at the "haste cap" like I mentioned before. Someone else asked it a while ago and never got an answer I think.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Thanks for confirming that.

    Still wondering if it's really best to glyph icy veins immediately at the "haste cap" like I mentioned before. Someone else asked it a while ago and never got an answer I think.
    If you play perfectly and line it up so you arent casting anything sub-optimal then it should be fine, but on average unglyphed will be better until you have high haste I'd say

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Thanks for confirming that.

    Still wondering if it's really best to glyph icy veins immediately at the "haste cap" like I mentioned before. Someone else asked it a while ago and never got an answer I think.
    EXACTLY at cap? No, because then you'd be at 50% total, still benefiting the full haste buff from IV. Once you're 1 point past there, then yes. The idea is 20% haste is usually 20% more damage in the same time frame. 20% more damage is how the glyph operates, but you lose out on the benefit on the last cast usually. To offset it, you gain more procs; usually 1 or 2, but enough to make up the loss of the last frostbolt not benefiting the damage bonus like it would haste. I've yet to encounter a point in gearing where it's not a gain to glyph it after the break point.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    EXACTLY at cap? No, because then you'd be at 50% total, still benefiting the full haste buff from IV. Once you're 1 point past there, then yes. The idea is 20% haste is usually 20% more damage in the same time frame. 20% more damage is how the glyph operates, but you lose out on the benefit on the last cast usually. To offset it, you gain more procs; usually 1 or 2, but enough to make up the loss of the last frostbolt not benefiting the damage bonus like it would haste. I've yet to encounter a point in gearing where it's not a gain to glyph it after the break point.

    Since glyphed IV doesnt increase the damage of your bomb spells, doesnt speed up your evocates, and doesn't speed up the GCDs for frozen orb and mirror image, it should represent a dps loss if you do any of those things (which you will, bomb at least) during its duration without being considerably past the haste soft cap.

    My understanding is that the increased proc chance is to offset the loss of frostbolt haste giving you more procs, not to balance other aspects of the difference.

  16. #36
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    My understanding is that the increased proc chance is to offset the loss of frostbolt haste giving you more procs, not to balance other aspects of the difference.
    That's the exact reason why I'm not sure it's a dps gain to immediately use the glyph at 1 rating past the cap. It's a valid question until we know for sure it was accounted for when the cap was originally worked out.

  17. #37
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Haste is never better then crit for frost for some main reasons..

    Frostbolt never has to crit to proc anything.
    More frostbolts, more procs.

    Ice Lance is auto-crit. Works off haste(gcd) and mastery (frozen damage)
    (Not 100% sure on this.. but doesn't FFB auto-crit too?)
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    Haste is never better then crit for frost for some main reasons..

    Frostbolt never has to crit to proc anything.
    More frostbolts, more procs.

    Ice Lance is auto-crit. Works off haste(gcd) and mastery (frozen damage)
    (Not 100% sure on this.. but doesn't FFB auto-crit too?)
    Nothing auto-crits. You get a crit modifier which makes it more likely you will crit. That is why in this thread, and in the guide Kuni put together, there is repeated mention of the "crit cap".

    Edit: to further expand upon this, (all of which again, can be found in Kuni's frost guide} the crit cap for raid bosses is 28%. Shatter doubles the crit chance against frozen targets plus 50%. There it 3% crit suppression on boss targets. So 25% + 25% + 50%= 100%. You take the 3% crit suppression into account and add it to the 25% you need to reach the cap.

    This is all not to mention your post seems to contradict itself unless I am reading it wrong since what you posted mentions that crit is supplied via the Shatter talent and therefore less is needed.
    Last edited by Methusula; 2012-12-08 at 07:50 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    Haste is never better then crit for frost for some main reasons..

    Frostbolt never has to crit to proc anything.
    More frostbolts, more procs.

    Ice Lance is auto-crit. Works off haste(gcd) and mastery (frozen damage)
    (Not 100% sure on this.. but doesn't FFB auto-crit too?)
    I think you mean crit is never better than haste. Also, nothing auto-crits. It's based on your crit chance and shatter.

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