Thread: SV Hunters!

Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Lightbulb SV Hunters!

    My main is a Survival Hunter and I am very proud of it. I enjoy the playstyle so much that I am willing to knowingly take a single target dps loss in order to stay the spec I love. As far as raiding at a high level goes SV is definitely viable, so I have a few questions about what other SV hunters are using for MAX dps.

    Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera
    Silencing Shot
    Aspect of the Iron Hawk
    Thrill of the Hunt
    A Murder of Crows
    Glaive Toss

    Is what I roll with on my raiding SV spec but I was considering Lynx Rush because of the upcoming bleed effect. Also, what are your feelings about Thrill of the Hunt? Personally I don't think any dps boost from Dire Beast could ever be enough to dethrone the utility TotH gives you for raiding. I'm well aware a lot of people don't see TotH as being a cornerstone of the SV spec like I do... does anyone mind talking a little Survival Hunter?

    SV HUNTERS UNITE!

  2. #2
    I am wondering if Murder of Crows and Glaive Toss could be macroed together
    Would any Sv Hunters Care to share some Macros please and thanks?

  3. #3
    Yes please do post SV macros! Also, which ability would it be best to macro Rabid to? Or is it optimal to just leave it on auto cast?

  4. #4
    I am curious if any of the other 90 talents are worth while? EVERYONE seems to use glaive toss.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    I am curious if any of the other 90 talents are worth while? EVERYONE seems to use glaive toss.
    No, they are not really worthwhile. Powershot just stinks, and Barrage has a tendency to pull mobs you have no interest in engaging.

  6. #6
    The problem with TotH in single target situations is that it doesn't actually give you that many more arcane shots than normal. Arcane Shot still has the cost of taking a GCD and at 20 focus, AS is very cheap. Doing a simulation, I only lost about 20% arcane shots going from TotH to Dire Beast, but gained almost as many uses of Dire Beast, which does 3.5x the damage of Arcane Shot. For heavy AoE situations or places where I'll need burst, like Elegon, TotH can shine by giving me free AS's when I need them, but otherwise it's just an "easier to use, but less dps" talent.
    I am wondering if Murder of Crows and Glaive Toss could be macroed together
    Regardless of whether you could macro AMoC and Glaive Toss together, the real question is should you. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but AMoC doesn't stack with itself, so if you start out doing [...], Glaive Toss+AMoC, [...], Readiness, [...], Glaive Toss+AMoC, you're going to waste a significant amount of uptime on AMoC.

    I personally don't use AMoC in either my BM or SV specs for two reasons: one, the focus cost is very high and can potentially be very awkward to use without starving yourself of your primary attack (ES or KC), which need to be used the second they come off CD. Two, it's very awkward to time without an addon, since the only indication of whether it's currently active or not is the animation and you never want to overwrite one AMoC with another after readiness, or it's definitely a dps loss compared to lynx rush.

  7. #7
    The Patient siegemaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    238
    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    I am curious if any of the other 90 talents are worth while? EVERYONE seems to use glaive toss.
    Currently no, simply because of the cast time/damage ratio. In the time it takes to cast PS/Barrage you could get off a ton of other shots, as well as the fact that currently you can't them on the move.

    As haste scales up PS "may" become more viable, but it is like hardcasting aimed as MM currently, it just isn't worth the time spent doing it.
    Highly skilled sharpshooter, effective against air units. Can gain the Long Rifles upgrade.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    3,340
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo4200 View Post
    I am wondering if Murder of Crows and Glaive Toss could be macroed together
    Would any Sv Hunters Care to share some Macros please and thanks?
    Uhh... What would be the point of that macro?

    OT: I roll with LR, 60 focus cost is too clunky along it being a 30 second dot, while LR has no focus cost and only lasts 4 seconds

    Currently in FD for Surv, LR is getting a 1.5k DPS increase when comparing Live to 5.1. Also, aMoC is simming 500 DPS lower than LR in 5.1 FD. So LR will be superior anyway .
    TotH is my favourite, I dislike Dire Beast a lot, since it is another pet and oh yoy it is for pets to run around like retards, making it less useful and 1 button less to use. I like Fervor a lot too, It seems to actually sim higher than TotH on single target/target switching, but for cleave(2 target AoE like Stone guard)/AoE, TotH is still the winner. Even though DB is about 700 DPS higher, I wouldn't take it unless the fight was only single target, and even then it feels sort of annoying, as the focus gains aren't as high.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by siegemaster View Post
    Currently no, simply because of the cast time/damage ratio. In the time it takes to cast PS/Barrage you could get off a ton of other shots, as well as the fact that currently you can't them on the move.

    As haste scales up PS "may" become more viable, but it is like hardcasting aimed as MM currently, it just isn't worth the time spent doing it.
    Responding to this and the other post bashing Powershot... Actually, if you sim it out Powershot is very competitive with Glaive Toss. According to femaledwarf, I only lose less than 100 dps to use Powershot rather than Glaive Toss, which is actually pretty nice if you consider that you need to use Powershot much less frequently and makes your rotation significantly more forgiving. In fact, if you ever screw up using Glaive Toss on CD it's probably a dps gain to use Powershot. I personally use GT because there's so many fights where I'd rather have a shorter CD burst ability rather than a long CD, and the pushback can be very annoying.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    3,340
    Quote Originally Posted by pewpewinface View Post
    Responding to this and the other post bashing Powershot... Actually, if you sim it out Powershot is very competitive with Glaive Toss. According to femaledwarf, I only lose less than 100 dps to use Powershot rather than Glaive Toss, which is actually pretty nice if you consider that you need to use Powershot much less frequently and makes your rotation significantly more forgiving. In fact, if you ever screw up using Glaive Toss on CD it's probably a dps gain to use Powershot. I personally use GT because there's so many fights where I'd rather have a shorter CD burst ability rather than a long CD, and the pushback can be very annoying.
    If you ever screw up your Power Shot(Eg. have to move from fire), you will lose too much DPS for it to be competitive. Instant shots always win out in terms of actual usage

  11. #11
    Level 90 talents are just bad right now. Gliave toss is a pure winner - I macroed it with Arcane Shot, so when i use AS with shift key I use GT. The rest are just worse in one way or another.

    Barrage sums up to similiar (a bit lower anyway) dps, but drains the rest of your dps as you need to maintain channeling. It's the best option for AoE situation tho. In Single Target DPS I don't see a reason to use it.

    Powershot... What hasn't been said yet? The DPS is lowest, the cast time breaks any rotation, and cannot be used during any movement. The only reason to use can be sometimes on arena, when a pushback can interrupt a cast or something. Or in heroics, where with Readiness you can use 2 Powershots one after another, which is kinda cool, and the fights itself don't last too long anyway.

    Level 90s need a redesign, and fast.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    If you ever screw up your Power Shot(Eg. have to move from fire), you will lose too much DPS for it to be competitive. Instant shots always win out in terms of actual usage
    While I do agree with you (I always use GT), I just get annoyed by people calling foul on Powershot as major dps loss. There's tons of fights where you can safely use Powershot, and I think most hunters would actually see a slight dps gain from using it in those situations. It's too bad that Powershot is the only cast-time ability that hunters can't use while moving in 5.1.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rjambi View Post
    My main is a Survival Hunter and I am very proud of it. I enjoy the playstyle so much that I am willing to knowingly take a single target dps loss in order to stay the spec I love. As far as raiding at a high level goes SV is definitely viable, so I have a few questions about what other SV hunters are using for MAX dps.

    Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera
    Silencing Shot
    Aspect of the Iron Hawk
    Thrill of the Hunt
    A Murder of Crows
    Glaive Toss

    Is what I roll with on my raiding SV spec but I was considering Lynx Rush because of the upcoming bleed effect. Also, what are your feelings about Thrill of the Hunt? Personally I don't think any dps boost from Dire Beast could ever be enough to dethrone the utility TotH gives you for raiding. I'm well aware a lot of people don't see TotH as being a cornerstone of the SV spec like I do... does anyone mind talking a little Survival Hunter?

    SV HUNTERS UNITE!
    Murder of Crows isn't worth it anyway, costs too much focus for the amount of DPS/CD. Lynx Rush is already considered the best, I would recommend it. Dire Beast is also incredibly good (and gives you a temporary extra pet so it's got the cool factor to boot). Also, I recommend trying Exhiliration, while not necessarily better than Iron Hawk it's incredibly nice to have your own burst healing and helps your healers a bunch.

  14. #14
    Thanks Pengalor!

    I will be switching to Lynx Rush today but I was under the impression it was an AoE ability, however I don't care about the "cool factor" in regards to Dire Beast. I feel the free arcane are super valuable for mechanics like the first boss in HoF for instance, not to mention the godlike AoE dps you get from 20 focus multishots. How much of an increase would you estimate Dire Beast being over TotH?
    Last edited by rjambi; 2012-11-06 at 02:32 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by pewpewinface View Post
    While I do agree with you (I always use GT), I just get annoyed by people calling foul on Powershot as major dps loss. There's tons of fights where you can safely use Powershot, and I think most hunters would actually see a slight dps gain from using it in those situations. It's too bad that Powershot is the only cast-time ability that hunters can't use while moving in 5.1.
    They are right though. Powershot stops all auto-attack during the cast, not to mention spells. Glaive Toss only costs a GCD every 15 secs and allows you to continue your normal rotation as it's going.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Pengalor View Post
    They are right though. Powershot stops all auto-attack during the cast, not to mention spells. Glaive Toss only costs a GCD every 15 secs and allows you to continue your normal rotation as it's going.
    So? All you're doing is making a ton of assumptions. "Well, since it stops auto attacks and such, it must be a huge dps loss, right?" No. That's not what the actual math says. Check femaledwarf. Back in my ~450 gear it was about a 100 dps loss to use Powershot and in my current ~488 gear it's still about a 100 dps loss, which is almost nothing.
    I wish someone could give me more detailed advice as to why Dire Beast is the better choice over TotH's utility.

    If it isn't a substantial DPS increase I'll be sticking with TotH over Dire Beast.
    I feel like I gave you a pretty detailed explanation in my first post. Besides the non-mathy reasons— the fact that it makes your rotation pretty awkward and makes it easy for you to let serpent sting fall off— the damage of the arcane shots that you lose (I went from 80->64 in a 5-minute simulation) is nothing compared to the Dire Beast damage casts you gain (11 in a 5-minute simulation), and considering that a single cast of Dire Beast does 3.5x the damage of a single cast of Arcane Shot, I'd say it's a clear winner in standard fights. However, I did give examples of situations where TotH is very useful, and that's sort of the point of MoP talents-- you're not really intended to use the the same set for every fight.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by pewpewinface View Post
    So? All you're doing is making a ton of assumptions. "Well, since it stops auto attacks and such, it must be a huge dps loss, right?" No. That's not what the actual math says. Check femaledwarf. Back in my ~450 gear it was about a 100 dps loss to use Powershot and in my current ~488 gear it's still about a 100 dps loss, which is almost nothing.

    I feel like I gave you a pretty detailed explanation in my first post. Besides the non-mathy reasons— the fact that it makes your rotation pretty awkward and makes it easy for you to let serpent sting fall off— the damage of the arcane shots that you lose (I went from 80->64 in a 5-minute simulation) is nothing compared to the Dire Beast damage casts you gain (11 in a 5-minute simulation), and considering that a single cast of Dire Beast does 3.5x the damage of a single cast of Arcane Shot, I'd say it's a clear winner in standard fights. However, I did give examples of situations where TotH is very useful, and that's sort of the point of MoP talents-- you're not really intended to use the the same set for every fight.
    Sigh, this is why most people should not be allowed to use sims....

    That assumes you have PERFECT rotation, NO downtime, NO movement, NO cast time reduction. Basically that assumes you and the fight are completely perfect. Since that basically never happens then it ends up being quite a DPS loss in an actual fight...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pewpewinface View Post
    I feel like I gave you a pretty detailed explanation in my first post. Besides the non-mathy reasons— the fact that it makes your rotation pretty awkward and makes it easy for you to let serpent sting fall off— the damage of the arcane shots that you lose (I went from 80->64 in a 5-minute simulation) is nothing compared to the Dire Beast damage casts you gain (11 in a 5-minute simulation), and considering that a single cast of Dire Beast does 3.5x the damage of a single cast of Arcane Shot, I'd say it's a clear winner in standard fights. However, I did give examples of situations where TotH is very useful, and that's sort of the point of MoP talents-- you're not really intended to use the the same set for every fight.
    I appreciate the advice very much sir and sorry if I missed your first post.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pengalor View Post
    Sigh, this is why most people should not be allowed to use sims....

    That assumes you have PERFECT rotation, NO downtime, NO movement, NO cast time reduction. Basically that assumes you and the fight are completely perfect. Since that basically never happens then it ends up being quite a DPS loss in an actual fight...
    I pretty much already said that it wasn't ideal in most situations, but there's definitely some fights where you can easily get away with it. Of the encounters I've downed, you should be able to use powershot easily (assuming you're smart with your usage) on Feng, Gara'jal, Elegon, Will of the Emperor, Imperial Vizier Zor'lok and Blade Lord Ta'yak. GT being a "clear winner" also depends on a perfect rotation as well, and pretty much the main crux of my argument is that's a huge assumption. It's much harder make sure that GT is on CD every 15 seconds than it is to make sure that Powershot is on CD every 1.5 minutes. You also have to manage your focus better with GT, since it costs 15 focus and is often going to be available around the same times as Explosive Shot or Kill Command.

    To reiterate, since this seems to be missed, I'm absolutely, 100% not saying that Powershot is what any hunter should use for every fight, or even ANY fight. I'm just saying there are definitely times when it can be used where it's not as horrible as people are saying and in some specific cases, especially for people who are at a lower skill level and on very specific fights, it might be slightly better. That's literally it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by pewpewinface View Post
    I pretty much already said that it wasn't ideal in most situations, but there's definitely some fights where you can easily get away with it. Of the encounters I've downed, you should be able to use powershot easily (assuming you're smart with your usage) on Feng, Gara'jal, Elegon, Will of the Emperor, Imperial Vizier Zor'lok and Blade Lord Ta'yak. GT being a "clear winner" also depends on a perfect rotation as well, and pretty much the main crux of my argument is that's a huge assumption. It's much harder make sure that GT is on CD every 15 seconds than it is to make sure that Powershot is on CD every 1.5 minutes. You also have to manage your focus better with GT, since it costs 15 focus and is often going to be available around the same times as Explosive Shot or Kill Command.

    To reiterate, since this seems to be missed, I'm absolutely, 100% not saying that Powershot is what any hunter should use for every fight, or even ANY fight. I'm just saying there are definitely times when it can be used where it's not as horrible as people are saying and in some specific cases, especially for people who are at a lower skill level and on very specific fights, it might be slightly better. That's literally it.
    GT will be the best choice for the overwhelming majority of hunter in an overwhelming majority of situations. When the DPS difference is negligible then you always take the choice that has the least chance to interfere or fail which is GT by a mile.

    However, if you or anyone want to use Powershot feel free.
    Last edited by Pengalor; 2012-11-06 at 03:33 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •