SV Hunters!

[rjambi]

GT will be the best choice for the overwhelming majority of hunter in an overwhelming majority of situations. When the DPS difference is negligible then you always take the choice that has the least chance to interfere or fail which is GT by a mile.

However, if you or anyone want to use Powershot feel free.

You seem to think you and pewpew are arguing but if you read what he said he's agreeing that PS would only be good to novice players that aren't adjusted to the proper rotation...

You guys both gave very good advice to each other, can't we all just get along? o_0

Save that anger for the simple minded, dirty, uninformed BM hunters that think just because they sim higher than SV that they actually do more real world dps.

[Tehterokkar]

You seem to think you and pewpew are arguing but if you read what he said he's agreeing that PS would only be good to novice players that aren't adjusted to the proper rotation...

You guys both gave very good advice to each other, can't we all just get along? o_0

Save that anger for the simple minded, dirty, uninformed BM hunters that think just because they sim higher than SV that they actually do more real world dps.

Exactly this, also most of the WoL are not reliable, as most of the top hunters are so oblivious to numbers that they completely forget mechanics.
Encounters where pet has to move -> BM suffers far worse than SV or MM will ever, as Pet is the #1 damage source of the Hunter for BM.

Fights that SV is better at: Stone Guards, Gara'jal(if in Spirit Realm duty!), Elegon, Will of the Emperor, Garalon, Wind lord(something, the 4th boss in HoF anyway ).

I have no idea on others beyond the 4th boss as I haven't seen the fights, I'd rather keep it as a mystery until we can kill 4th boss on Wednesday(Our 2nd pull resulted us in killing all the adds and we went for Boss, though we wiped to Berserk at like 74% lol), The boss seems like a cakewalk compared to Garalon in the mechanics side.(We had really bad everything, people were in Amber cubes for like 10-25 seconds )

[Kovic]

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera
Silencing Shot
Aspect of the Iron Hawk
Thrill of the Hunt
A Murder of Crows
Glaive Toss

I'm running the same setup; the only downside I've experienced as mentioned above is the sometimes awkward 'rotation' I'm put into. Occasionally s. sting drops, leading to less viper venom procs ...among other things. My real issues with the T4 talents is less direct dps done, and more with the focus regen. I've raided with all three, and I feel less starved with TotH than anything.

[Namarus]

So? All you're doing is making a ton of assumptions. "Well, since it stops auto attacks and such, it must be a huge dps loss, right?" No. That's not what the actual math says. Check femaledwarf. Back in my ~450 gear it was about a 100 dps loss to use Powershot and in my current ~488 gear it's still about a 100 dps loss, which is almost nothing.

I feel like I gave you a pretty detailed explanation in my first post. Besides the non-mathy reasons— the fact that it makes your rotation pretty awkward and makes it easy for you to let serpent sting fall off— the damage of the arcane shots that you lose (I went from 80->64 in a 5-minute simulation) is nothing compared to the Dire Beast damage casts you gain (11 in a 5-minute simulation), and considering that a single cast of Dire Beast does 3.5x the damage of a single cast of Arcane Shot, I'd say it's a clear winner in standard fights. However, I did give examples of situations where TotH is very useful, and that's sort of the point of MoP talents-- you're not really intended to use the the same set for every fight.

So what you are saying is that if you are a hunter who can't handle the rotation correctly you should use Dire Beast? So bad hunters use Dire Beast, this is good to know.

On fights where the boss or adds move around, dire beast is bad. This is because when pet reposition themselves moving forwards and backwards they tend to lose an attack. This reduces the damage that dire beast does. Also for some funky reason when testing this ability (see EJ ) people have found that sometimes you do not get all the Dire Beast attacks even on a Target Dummy.

Another point Dire Beast does not scale with mastery (for survival hunters) where as Arcane Shot does.

[Tehstool]

Murder of Crows isn't worth it anyway, costs too much focus for the amount of DPS/CD. Lynx Rush is already considered the best, I would recommend it. Dire Beast is also incredibly good (and gives you a temporary extra pet so it's got the cool factor to boot). Also, I recommend trying Exhiliration, while not necessarily better than Iron Hawk it's incredibly nice to have your own burst healing and helps your healers a bunch.

AMoC is better than LR right now for dps... Not sure where you are pulling your information from.

[Deleted]

I like to use Fervor...although this thread makes me think I'm the only one! I find it essential to overcome the hefty focus cost of AMOC (especially during openers when we have pots, trinkets, Cds active) as well as being very useful for AOE fights/phases such as hc Feng in MV and Wind Lord in HoF. I know TOTH does proc regularly, but I just prefer the controlled focus regen/boost Fervor can give, especially during CD phases where I really want to be casting as few Cobra Shots as I possibly can.

[Tehterokkar]

AMoC is better than LR right now for dps... Not sure where you are pulling your information from.

It is better... If you can time it properly and manage the massive focus cost(Not delay ES, BA or GT)... You gain 1k DPS over LR, Gratz man.

[ttak82]

Quote Originally Posted by pewpewinface
the fact that it makes your rotation pretty awkward and makes it easy for you to let serpent sting fall off— the damage of the arcane shots that you lose (I went from 80->64 in a 5-minute simulation) is nothing compared to the Dire Beast damage casts you gain (11 in a 5-minute simulation), and considering that a single cast of Dire Beast does 3.5x the damage of a single cast of Arcane Shot, I'd say it's a clear winner in standard fights. However, I did give examples of situations where TotH is very useful, and that's sort of the point of MoP talents-- you're not really intended to use the the same set for every fight.

______________

TotH simplifies the rotation and focus management quite a bit; it is one lesser ability than Dire beast; as for serpent sting falling off, this is a matter of playstyle and individual skill. The advantage of TotH over dire beast is in the fact that instead of using GCDs for Dire beast, you use AS and over a longer fight, your dps is quite similar; I would say that TotH allows you to get a really high burst opener for this reason (with current Lynx rush at least). TotH has some RNG, but a decent uptime and its nice to use for some burst when low on focus (elegon orbs and subetai's arrows come to mind). TotH also offers some nice AoE benefits as it also reduces multishot cost)

[Deleted]

I don't realy mean to bash anyone that realy goes with simulation sites and just makes it an universal truth, but for MY playstyle i find that lynx rush is slightly better and i find TOTH too valuable in too many situations to lose it.

I have the utmost respect for people who actualy made extensive tests on their own instead of believing the sims (props to you all), but i found the 2 abilities stated above much more enjoyable to play and in most situations netted me an increase in damage.

Some brain-doodoo of mine about TOTH:

TOTH is just amazing in situations that you want to "mini-cleave" when 2-3 targets are present and you don't want to put in your AOE rotation into overdrive, multishot becomes a mini-cleave, hurray!
TOTH is realy good when you need an extra burst aswell
Droping Serpent sting by the "ackward" rotation with TOTH is also not often, i'm personaly using Multishot a lot of times to refresh it aswell for full duration, comes with more practice i guess.


Some excrement of my ideas about AMOC:

A Murder of Crows most of the time comes out of cooldown when i have to make huge adjustments to my priority rotation simply because i hate to delay black arrow or explosive shot and i won't have enough focus for everything. It has the terrible habit of being ready when i don't have enough focus. 60 focus, come on... It becomes more often than not a button i hate to press and not a button i have fun using.


Disclaimer : It may be that i'm not simply good enough to "plan ahead" for AMOC, but i simply hate to plan for it.





AMOC and Dire beast might sound realy good in math, but in real world situations i find myself adjusting much better to the other alternatives stated above.

[DeadNotSleeping]

this thread makes me want to try SV again, thanks guys!

[Nemesis003]

i hate the survival play style. I wish they would fix marksman so that it didn't suck

[ttak82]

This is a nice exchange of info on abilities; tl:dr: use whatever suits your playstyle - your choice wont matter too much as long as you are able to dps, know mechanics and stay alive. As for MM, i wish i could get myself to play it - was never able to execute it properly, pulling more numbers as BM/SV even in the firelands patch. (4/1/4.2)

[Deleted]

i went TotH mainly so i had 1 less button too handle.

in an aoe fight i would prefer TotH also since it allows cheap aoe (especially nice as SV).
though in single target fights direbeast is the winner most of the times.

i myself also started using multishot during single target fights when TotH procs, too refresh serpent sting when i got enough focus so casting a cobra would be bad.
and if i got overall too much focus with ES/GT/BA on cd (ofcourse not draining myself) i often use 1-2 multishots and then the left over procs on free AS, before ES comes of cd.

[Tehterokkar]

i went TotH mainly so i had 1 less button too handle.

in an aoe fight i would prefer TotH also since it allows cheap aoe (especially nice as SV).
though in single target fights direbeast is the winner most of the times.

i myself also started using multishot during single target fights when TotH procs, too refresh serpent sting when i got enough focus so casting a cobra would be bad.
and if i got overall too much focus with ES/GT/BA on cd (ofcourse not draining myself) i often use 1-2 multishots and then the left over procs on free AS, before ES comes of cd.

Fervor is very much a strategic ability, it beats all the others when it comes down to straight single-target burst, 100 focus in 10 seconds means 5 more AS + more from natural focus regen + SS ticks. I used it on Elegon, and found it helpful when we were still progressing on that boss(Hint: Beat the enrage by like 3 seconds), but now when we beat the enrage by 1 min or so, I just opt for TotH.

[Deleted]

I like Fervor too, especially on heavy movement fights where Dire Best just feels clumsy. ToTH never convinced me as multishoting 2 targets doesn't seem viable to me and in MV I only considered taking it on the last boss (25 man).

[Tehterokkar]

I like Fervor too, especially on heavy movement fights where Dire Best just feels clumsy. ToTH never convinced me as multishoting 2 targets doesn't seem viable to me and in MV I only considered taking it on the last boss (25 man).

It is viable, but you shouldn't spam it, only use it to refresh the DoT(on the dog that you aren't DPSing fully) every ~12 sec.

[Bluesftw]

i was a fan of dire beast till i played with fervor, which is just amazing , on demand focus for crows or whatever you want is too good to pass up

[Deleted]

It is viable, but you shouldn't spam it, only use it to refresh the DoT(on the dog that you aren't DPSing fully) every ~12 sec.

Yes, but you don't need ToTH to fire multishot every 12 sec

[Tehterokkar]

Yes, but you don't need ToTH to fire multishot every 12 sec

It saves Focus in the long run and does more damage

[Ceejjay]

All of these talents are so dependent on the fight.
For a straight up burn fight like gara'jal:
TotH is garbage for dps.
AMoC > Lynx Rush.

Even so, the top SV hunter on WoL is 20k behind the top BM hunter.

Makes me sad, I feel like I'm the only person who hates BM. ><