Thread: TBC Lore

  1. #1

    TBC Lore

    I'm not sure there's any other lore in the game that makes me angrier than what they did in TBC. I know some of that comes from a "my favorite characters" place, and that Deathwing was NOT handled well at all in Cata, but goddamn, BC lore riles me up like nothing else.
    i agree i would rather have me'dan and the super friends then another expansion like bc storywise
    SO yeah, I got into the Warcraft universe at the 'start' I think: Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, got into the idea, the name gives it away :P Followed up with Warcraft 2 and its expansion, Beyond the Dark Portal.

    I didn't have a good computer then for many years, so I missed out on Warcraft 3. When WoW first came out I knew if I started playing I'd be hooked, so I didn't pick it up :P

    I started playing during TBC, and the world was a very different place to what I'd remembered. I won't list all the questions, but as some were on a "who are these blue elves and why have the proper elves joined the horde?" I could see I had some catch up.

    Cue a fun evening listening to Pendulum for the first time and reading Wowwiki for about 7 hours lol.

    ANYWAY, to get on topic, I've noticed there seems to be discontent with the direction Lore took during TBC, but from my perspective all the TBC, Vanilla, TFT and WarIII lore was one storyline (as it were). Those points in the story where people more closely following it would have anticipated what decisions would be made never occured for me as the decisions were made before I "joined in"

    So yeah whats the beef, what coulda shoulda woulda happened if you had the reins of TBC lore? What were you expecting that didn't happen? I'm just curious
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  2. #2
    Well, some from then on out we were expanding on the World of Warcraft and that we started moving on from the characters we're familiar with from the Warcraft games.

    However I disagree. I think TBC, Wrath (especially so with Arthas and all) and even Cataclysm (though no-one seemed to know who Deathwing was when they should have), were all tied into Warcraft lore.

    The reason I like Mists as an expansion is because it's moving on. We're done with those old storylines and to carry them on any longer is going to get boring. I mean, the more a character seems to be developed in WoW, the more players seem to question them, think Thrall, etc. But we've seen a lot of development with Sylvanas, Vol'jin and a few other names which have barely been touched on over the last few years - as well as finally getting to go to Pandaria, which is still Warcraft and new.

    Getting a little more back on topic though, at the time of TBC I wasn't the most well-read player, I certainly read up on most of my knowledge during WotLK as I didn't even play the Warcraft games. Even so, I don't see much wrong with TBC's narrative. I've played since Vanilla and didn't find it too different to the Warcraft I knew to be uncomfortable. We came, stopped Vash and Kael'thas and Illidan (pretty sure they were all in Warcraft) - perhaps killing off Illidan wasn't such a good idea as he was a pretty good character, I'd have changed that.

    Maybe I'm missing something? What exactly did they destroy or do in TBC's lore to cause an uproar? 'till now all I heard of it was 'omg TBC best xpac wat is this pandera crap'.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    SO yeah, I got into the Warcraft universe at the 'start' I think: Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, got into the idea, the name gives it away :P Followed up with Warcraft 2 and its expansion, Beyond the Dark Portal.

    I didn't have a good computer then for many years, so I missed out on Warcraft 3. When WoW first came out I knew if I started playing I'd be hooked, so I didn't pick it up :P

    I started playing during TBC, and the world was a very different place to what I'd remembered. I won't list all the questions, but as some were on a "who are these blue elves and why have the proper elves joined the horde?" I could see I had some catch up.

    Cue a fun evening listening to Pendulum for the first time and reading Wowwiki for about 7 hours lol.

    ANYWAY, to get on topic, I've noticed there seems to be discontent with the direction Lore took during TBC, but from my perspective all the TBC, Vanilla, TFT and WarIII lore was one storyline (as it were). Those points in the story where people more closely following it would have anticipated what decisions would be made never occured for me as the decisions were made before I "joined in"

    So yeah whats the beef, what coulda shoulda woulda happened if you had the reins of TBC lore? What were you expecting that didn't happen? I'm just curious
    i would use the original draenei instead of what we got (the broken as their called now) or wouldve added a different race. i wouldnt have kael'thas be an "i iz teh evilz nao" villain with no explanation as to why.

    i would either have illidan as an anti hero or if he had to be the villain i wouldve expanded upon his backstory of what he had been doing inbetween wc3 and bc and he wouldve showed up alot more, not quite as much as arthas did but certainly more then once (technically twice if you count the questchain where he speaks through a giant crystal and yells at you)

    i also wouldve made khadgar alliance only.

    oh i would also have whatever the naga were doing actually being explained then just "lulz we taken water"

    ive come to accept the draenei retcons and all even though i still hate how they implemented them and how they pretty much just poofed a race out of thin air to have a "demon-like" race.

    the majority of plotpoints in bc just were flatout never explained the only two raids that felt like they made any kind of sense or explanation was mannoroth lair and gruuls lair.

    there were a couple things i liked though like the sporegar i felt like kara was a great raid and it didnt really need explaining in my opinion since the lack of info about it added to the atmosphere. i loved the ethereals and thought they were awesome. the naaru were okay but i felt like they didnt explain them enough all we know about them is that there beings of pure light who can invade your mind and read your thoughts, can force you to become calm and rarely turn into void creatures and start eating souls
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  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Zuben's Avatar
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    My biggest issue with TBC's lore is that Draenor was always hailed as the orcish homeworld. And what do we see when we finally get there? Draenei settlements everywhere, Black Temple, Auchindoun and Shattrath are draenei-built (all gone to hell, but still hold a great cultural value) while the orcs live in clay cup -houses. Hellfire Citadel and the buildings in Shadowmoon Valley are the grandest orcish structures you see, but they're built and controlled by fel orcs, not our orcs. It's sort of understandable, as the good orcs left in Draenor were shamanistic, thus clay cup housing makes more sense than Hellfire Citadel. Still, doesn't make it any less lame. At least Blizz was fast to fix this in Wrath, where we got that cool new architecture and even Warsong Hold, a unique fortress, to welcome us to Northrend.

    Another thing was this: Alliance was sad to see only two of their old heroes return to their faction. Khadgar became neutral and Turalyon & Alleria had gone missing. Yes yes, very sad, I feel your pain. But I also feel my own pain for not getting Gorefiend, Bladefist and Zul'jin back to the Horde, but instead see them reduced to loot pinjatas. We got three new young orcs with potential, but one of them died in the next expansion(Dranosh), one became a tyrant(guess who...), and one seems to have been forgotten entirely(Jorin Deadeye). To top it of our new race, the blood elves, didn't get the most obvious and desired choice, Kael'thas, as their racial leader, but a nobody who hasn't been notable in any sense until now, in the upcoming patch 5.1.

    TBC wasn't a bad expansion lore-wise, but these things were notable downsides for me. Blood elves were its redeeming factor, if it weren't for them I'd probably hate the expansion, but now it's merely my least favorite.

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk schwank05's Avatar
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    I am just beginning to read the Beyond the Dark Portal book, and let me tell you it is by far the best Warcraft book I have read, granted I have only read the Shattering, Thrall and Jaina's books, but I love to hear how the orcs came to be and how badass the original Death Knights were.

  6. #6
    There's quite of alot of different reasons why TBC lore was unpopular. I'll try to list them:

    • Illidan randomly went completely evil and became a sadistic monster. We had to kill a popular character
    • Kael went randomly evil and became a sadistic monster. We had to kill a popular character.
    • The Warcraft 2 heroes barely had any part in it.
    • Outland suddenly has pristine forests and verdant wilderness despite always being described as a dead world, even before it was ripped apart. It was completely different to all earlier appearences. Suddenly this cool, planet-wide wasteland became a national park.
    • The Narru.
    • The retconned Draenai.
    • Science fiction overload (cystal spaceships? Inter-dimensional, technologically advanced laser-mummies?)

    For me at least those are the big issues I have with TBC. If I had control I would have made sure none of that ever happened and that Outland stayed true to its original version.

  7. #7
    What it boils down to is that TBC had A LOT of potential storywise, as it pretty much picked up from TFT, but unfortunately Blizz wasn't very good at developing an intriguing story and lore ingame (They've gotten wayyy better at that), so all plot points ended very similarily; almost everyone become a villain.

    -Gruul. Lesser known but still, was an ally in BtDP, kills dragons and ogres (so do we), yet instead of being used as unconvential allies, we kill him and his sons because the only good faction of ogres in game said so.

    -As said before, multiple Old Horde heroes, all killed, with virtually no story behind them or reasons as to why we fight them. Even after Gorefieends chain I was saying, 'soooo, who is he?'

    -Naga reasons for draining Zangarmarsh are never given. They also don't explain how the Naga got there (i didnt read up back then and was confused as fuck), or who they serve (doesnt explain Vashj or Illidan).

    -Kael'thas. When we left off at TFT, we was going to Outland to search for a new way to channel magic and sate his peoples hunger. When we meet him in BC,he's instantly shown to be a villain, then randomly sides with Legion, with no explaination why for either of these.

    -The Eredar retcon pissed a lot of people off, and it did seem unfair for Alliance to get a random race never before known about.

    -Disjointed raids with no progression storywise. Why did we stop what we were doing in outland to go to Kara? Why were the Amani suddenly a threat to both Horde and Alliance (better yet, when did they become a threat at all). Wtf did we go to Mt Hyjal, when there were no Infinite there.

    -Lastly, Illidan. Blizz failed on every level with his character in BC.He was one of the two most loved characters, so many probably didnt think he would be a villain. But they did just that, and made no sense explaining why he was. Why did he attack the Sha'tar, when they have a common enem and they could have easily worked together. What happened mentally to Illidan inbetween WC3 and BC, he is completely disillusional and they made no atempt to explain.

    Dont get me wrong I lived the Xpax, i just realy wish Blizz could go back in time and redo some of it.

    Also forgot the Well of Eternity vials and the hidden one Illidan had. What was he planning to use them all on, and where is the last one
    Last edited by babo7000; 2012-11-06 at 11:34 PM.

  8. #8
    Mechagnome Draqson's Avatar
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    well after Warcraft3:TFT I expected...
    - Illidan to be dead; and if he survived more like a good guy - neutral to horde/alliance and against the scourge OR some sort of 2 Faction thing (much later tbh) with the Choice between Maiev and Illidan... (and I expected 90% picking Illidan)
    - Kael'thas to be a good leader for the blood elves - and WHO is Lor'themar?!
    - Sylvanas to do pretty much what she did... -2 Deaths and -3 betrayals. and well I didnt expect her to join the horde...
    - Rexxar doing more than just giving quests...

  9. #9
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Zuben summed up my major gripes, but the sheer lack of explanation was what threw me off guard the most. What exactly was Vashj doing, in the end? How did Kael'thas go from "You may not care for your subjects, but I care for mine," to "YOU WILL DROWN IN YOUR OWN BLOOD! THE WORLD WILL BURN!"? What in blue hell compelled Illidan to strike out at everything in his vicinity when he was on Kil'jaeden's shitlist? I mean, Zul'jin got it bad (being conscripted by a legitimately retarded treasure hunter to take down the bad guy is more or less the ultimate insult to said villain's credibility >.<), but his ZA trailer gave him a motive at least...

    All three would have benefited from one of the short stories or books they tend to release nowadays to complement their villains, or at least some facetime while questing. A shame.

    Personal gripe would be Lor'themar Theron doing nothing throughout the entire expansion.
    Last edited by Zaelsino; 2012-11-07 at 01:11 AM.

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Ishax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babo7000 View Post
    What it boils down to is that TBC had A LOT of potential storywise, as it pretty much picked up from TFT, but unfortunately Blizz wasn't very good at developing an intriguing story and lore ingame (They've gotten wayyy better at that), so all plot points ended very similarily; almost everyone become a villain.

    -Gruul. Lesser known but still, was an ally in BtDP, kills dragons and ogres (so do we), yet instead of being used as unconvential allies, we kill him and his sons because the only good faction of ogres in game said so.

    -As said before, multiple Old Horde heroes, all killed, with virtually no story behind them or reasons as to why we fight them. Even after Gorefieends chain I was saying, 'soooo, who is he?'

    -Naga reasons for draining Zangarmarsh are never given. They also don't explain how the Naga got there (i didnt read up back then and was confused as fuck), or who they serve (doesnt explain Vashj or Illidan).

    -Kael'thas. When we left off at TFT, we was going to Outland to search for a new way to channel magic and sate his peoples hunger. When we meet him in BC,he's instantly shown to be a villain, then randomly sides with Legion, with no explaination why for either of these.

    -The Eredar retcon pissed a lot of people off, and it did seem unfair for Alliance to get a random race never before known about.

    -Disjointed raids with no progression storywise. Why did we stop what we were doing in outland to go to Kara? Why were the Amani suddenly a threat to both Horde and Alliance (better yet, when did they become a threat at all). Wtf did we go to Mt Hyjal, when there were no Infinite there.

    -Lastly, Illidan. Blizz failed on every level with his character in BC.He was one of the two most loved characters, so many probably didnt think he would be a villain. But they did just that, and made no sense explaining why he was. Why did he attack the Sha'tar, when they have a common enem and they could have easily worked together. What happened mentally to Illidan inbetween WC3 and BC, he is completely disillusional and they made no atempt to explain.

    Dont get me wrong I lived the Xpax, i just realy wish Blizz could go back in time and redo some of it.

    Also forgot the Well of Eternity vials and the hidden one Illidan had. What was he planning to use them all on, and where is the last one
    Sabellion, brother to Onyxia and Nefarion tricks you into killing the sons of Gruul, he is the human you talk to to start the quests. With Blades edge literally littered with dead black dragon corpses you could assume that you were tricked by a black dragon into killing their greatest enemy in the area.

    The Naga followed Vashj who if I recall had helped Illidan and Kael'thas. Going with them to outland would most likely have been with some hidden agenda, perhaps find out about the remaining vials of eternity to give to her queen Azshara. With so little water on/in Outland they could simply have been using it to survive. They can live out of water but for how long? They are all usually found on coast lines so it could be assumed they need the water to survive. Kael'thas swapping sides is simple, the new source of energy he sought out for his people ended up being Fel energy. Demonic energy known to corrupt those that abuse it, he became dependant on fel energy and made a pact with the burning legion. Simple enough, he made all the wrong decisions for the good of his people and ended up crazy because of it.

    Were we not sent to Kara by Khadgar who had once lived there being educated by Medivh. The violet eye are part of the Kirin Tor of Dalaran, they were keeping watch outside the tower, you are sent in to investigate what the strange happenings in the tower are. The Amani basically threatened war against both the horde (for allowing the blood elves entry - thus no Zuljin back in the horde) and the Alliance for revenge (taking his eye and arm). Gruul's was just more trickery from the black dragons, Magtheridon was built up threw the Hellfire instances, he was the reason for the fel orcs of outland. Coilfang had two reasons for entry, saving Zangermarsh on behalf of the Cenarion Expedition and for stopping one of Illidans lieutenants.

    As for the last vial of eternity, I am sure something will come of it with the upcoming patch lore.
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  11. #11
    Kael'thas and Illidan weren't villains. They were anti-heroes. But it seems like Blizz can't handle the idea of anti-heroes anymore, so they fumbled through Outland to make those two bosses for no particular reason other than, "Hey, you guys love Illidan, right? Well, now you can kill him!"

    The entire expansion was blood elves and draenai, with orcs as side item. There seemed to be no reason for the Horde or Alliance to really go to Outland beyond 'thar be demons here' and because of the new races. Either way... I get that it was their expansion so to speak, but a lot of it didn't make sense. If Illidan was such a big threat, why weren't the night elves out in force? They had like one base, far away from him. Why were the heroes of WC2 just shoved to the side for more blood elves and draenai? And while the expansion was all about blood elves and draenai... there was almost NO character development for them, nor did the world reflect anything changing. Lor'themar did nothing. Velen did one thing at the end of a raid most people didn't get to see.

    Speaking of blood elves, I remember when they were announced - the Horde exploded. "Prissy elves in MY Horde? They're gay as hell!" So instead of playing up the badass side of the blood elves, the side where they would stop at nothing to rebuild their kingdom and destroy the Scourge and such... instead of that, Blizz played up the "lol, they're so gay" aspect. Check their jokes and flirts and so many of the NPCs put into the game. This did NOTHING to help ingrain the elves into Horde, storywise and community wise.

    The eredar retcon upset a lot of folks. Personally, I see it for the better. Eredar were just sorta generic "evil demons who were evil" before that. The retcons at least added a little depth to the story. The draenai were kind of interesting if you could get past the whole 'we're so goody good'. The Broken will forever be infinitely more interesting.

    As much as I loved Zul'aman, it was completely out of left field and had NOTHING to do with the story whatsoever. Karazhan was also a very odd fit as a raid, it seemed odd having to go there for no reason, it's not like we investigated anything Medivh did. Gruul's Lair... just a very bad raid. I'd say it was a worse raid than TOC, even. Perhaps the worst raid in the game.

    The main problem with the story is that it all took place in patch notes and pre-expansion details, really. They didn't tell the story through the game. I mean, Kael'thas sacks Silvermoon for a naaru and there's no event for that in-game? Nothing was built up or developed story-wise. It was all just sorta thrown at you and you were told to go get the loot.

    The entire expansion's story - every single plot and subplot - left loose ends and plotholes and just mysteries that'll likely never be solved. They're only just getting around to addressing some of it years later.

    I think Blizz is kind of ashamed of TBC nowadays.
    Last edited by Ruvokus; 2012-11-07 at 01:42 AM.

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