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  1. #1

    WW monks in competitive PvP.

    Hi guys,

    Just decided to reroll servers for PvP opportunities.

    Doing RaF so I get two 80s.

    Doing WW monk but noticed that there was a lack of monks at above 2k rating and I didn't notice any above 2.2k.

    Is this because WW is just that UP or is there another reason because obviously being a new class I thought "lack of people playing" but there seems to be plenty just no decent rated ones?

    Just curious what the view is because I wish to focus one 1 class now, and perfect it as much as possible for the future seasons, would rather not do a sec that is UP for the whole first season.

    thanks.

  2. #2
    WW is pretty underpowered in any PvP situation where they are focused as CC is the Bane of Monks moreso than any other Class at the moment in Rated PvP.

    I thik if you want to focus and get some good PvP going RaF a Warrior/Mage/Warlock....Maybe even a Shaman/Druid if you like Healing

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by krethos View Post
    WW is pretty underpowered in any PvP situation where they are focused as CC is the Bane of Monks moreso than any other Class at the moment in Rated PvP.

    I thik if you want to focus and get some good PvP going RaF a Warrior/Mage/Warlock....Maybe even a Shaman/Druid if you like Healing
    This is what I assumed, thanks for the heads up! Time to use the other 80 lol!

  4. #4
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krethos View Post
    WW is pretty underpowered in any PvP situation where they are focused as CC is the Bane of Monks moreso than any other Class at the moment in Rated PvP.
    Please explain why CC is more effective against monks than any other class?

    @OP - the reason there aren't many monks above 2k, is because there aren't many level 90 monks yet. If you look at how many level 90 monks there are relative to how many level 90's there are, and compare that to how many level 90 monks are above 2k as a percentage of all classes above 2k - I suspect you would see that monks are actually over-represented above 2k right now: not the reverse.

    In Season 5, DKs were so incredibly overpowered that they broke all brackets at all ratings to such a colossal degree that it was the least balanced season ever. Not to say 2v2 is a fair and balanced bracket, but of the top 100 2v2 teams, like literally 100 of them were holy/unholy - 3v3 had slightly more diversity, but not a ton more. Despite this, how many level 90 dks were there do you think? Probably not nearly as many as there were of any other class even by the end of the first season: but everyone who rolled a DK and had any modicum of interest in arenas was instantly 2k+.

    Just because a new class comes out doesn't mean that say, 15% of all other classes communities quit their mains and reroll to the new class so that there is instantly an equal proportion of the new class: most people prefer to stick with the classes they know and love, and if they reroll - they wait to see how the new class fares (a process that takes months, potentially over a year).

    Deathknights in season 5 were a big obvious lesson for blizzard about launching new classes, they have to have some modicum of pvp balance at their launch - they can't just be immortal one-shot machines who are immune to being kited or CC'd - Monks are not DKs from Season 5, this is intentional - it is a success on Blizzard's part that monks are not overtly overpowered right now, but that doesn't mean that monks are weak right now: I'd even be tempted to argue that both WW and MW are some of the stronger specs in the game right now for their roles (melee dps and healer respectively).

    When you look at class representation and see Rogues at 1% - remember that rogues have been around since Vanilla and have a die-hard following of players who love rogues and will never reroll, they also have all the FotM rerollers from last season who were hoping they would be good again this season (because its rare for rogues to go a season without at least 1 competitive spec) - that rogues are at 1% of players above 2k genuinely indicates that rogues are significantly underpowered right now.

    When you see monks at 1% of players above 2k, remember that rogues - who you may be comparing them to - have an 8 year headstart in building a community - it's not that monks aren't competitive, it's that nobody has demonstrated to the masses that monks are capable yet. Just to hammer this point home:

    Skill-Capped.com has:
    - 16 Priest Contributors demonstrating how to priest at a Gladiator or Rank 1 level
    - 12 Rogue Contributors ^
    - 11 Mage Contributors
    - 12 Paladin Contributors

    Know how many monks they have teaching people how to monk, or videos demonstrating the tricks and techniques of competitive monk pvp? 0.

    See what the balance is like in a month or two, or even a year or two - thats how long it took before the DK population started to normalize.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-11-10 at 01:25 PM.
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  5. #5
    WW monks suck at pvp.

    - leather armor
    - no decent defensive cooldowns. ToK is a joke and dispellable to boot.
    - no reliable gap closers. Rollol and Lolling Serpent Kick hardly help getting in range.
    - no zomgwtfbbq dps cooldowns, like most other classes having now.
    - no reason at all to bring a monk to an arena team over another melee dps

    Fail spec is fail.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I'd even be tempted to argue that both WW and MW are some of the stronger specs in the game right now for their roles (melee dps and healer respectively).
    HAHAHAHA. What game are we talking about ? lol

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    HAHAHAHA. What game are we talking about ? lol
    I think he's referring to pve.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Please explain why CC is more effective against monks than any other class?

    @OP - the reason there aren't many monks above 2k, is because there aren't many level 90 monks yet. If you look at how many level 90 monks there are relative to how many level 90's there are, and compare that to how many level 90 monks are above 2k as a percentage of all classes above 2k - I suspect you would see that monks are actually over-represented above 2k right now: not the reverse.
    And the reason there aren't many monks is because they're in a very bad state. Their offensive mobility is bad, they don't have on demand burst, they are extremely squishy and they don't have good defensive cooldowns outside of ToK, which is on a 1.5 min cd.
    The only thing a WW monk can do well is deal sustained damage and CC. But why bring a monk when feral can do both, and do it better?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Please explain why CC is more effective against monks than any other class?

    @OP - the reason there aren't many monks above 2k, is because there aren't many level 90 monks yet. If you look at how many level 90 monks there are relative to how many level 90's there are, and compare that to how many level 90 monks are above 2k as a percentage of all classes above 2k - I suspect you would see that monks are actually over-represented above 2k right now: not the reverse.

    In Season 5, DKs were so incredibly overpowered that they broke all brackets at all ratings to such a colossal degree that it was the least balanced season ever. Not to say 2v2 is a fair and balanced bracket, but of the top 100 2v2 teams, like literally 100 of them were holy/unholy - 3v3 had slightly more diversity, but not a ton more. Despite this, how many level 90 dks were there do you think? Probably not nearly as many as there were of any other class even by the end of the first season: but everyone who rolled a DK and had any modicum of interest in arenas was instantly 2k+.

    Just because a new class comes out doesn't mean that say, 15% of all other classes communities quit their mains and reroll to the new class so that there is instantly an equal proportion of the new class: most people prefer to stick with the classes they know and love, and if they reroll - they wait to see how the new class fares (a process that takes months, potentially over a year).

    Deathknights in season 5 were a big obvious lesson for blizzard about launching new classes, they have to have some modicum of pvp balance at their launch - they can't just be immortal one-shot machines who are immune to being kited or CC'd - Monks are not DKs from Season 5, this is intentional - it is a success on Blizzard's part that monks are not overtly overpowered right now, but that doesn't mean that monks are weak right now: I'd even be tempted to argue that both WW and MW are some of the stronger specs in the game right now for their roles (melee dps and healer respectively).

    When you look at class representation and see Rogues at 1% - remember that rogues have been around since Vanilla and have a die-hard following of players who love rogues and will never reroll, they also have all the FotM rerollers from last season who were hoping they would be good again this season (because its rare for rogues to go a season without at least 1 competitive spec) - that rogues are at 1% of players above 2k genuinely indicates that rogues are significantly underpowered right now.

    When you see monks at 1% of players above 2k, remember that rogues - who you may be comparing them to - have an 8 year headstart in building a community - it's not that monks aren't competitive, it's that nobody has demonstrated to the masses that monks are capable yet. Just to hammer this point home:

    Skill-Capped.com has:
    - 16 Priest Contributors demonstrating how to priest at a Gladiator or Rank 1 level
    - 12 Rogue Contributors ^
    - 11 Mage Contributors
    - 12 Paladin Contributors

    Know how many monks they have teaching people how to monk, or videos demonstrating the tricks and techniques of competitive monk pvp? 0.

    See what the balance is like in a month or two, or even a year or two - thats how long it took before the DK population started to normalize.
    This post is pretty ridiculous. There has been enough time to identify monk strength and weaknesses to know the class is not good in arena. Of course player representation sways with class popularity, but not to this extent where the monk is almost completely shut out of high end arena.
    If monks were good they would be leveled and played in arena.

    How is the monk weak to CC? Lets see.. no fearward, IBF, zerker rage, range interrupt, Divine Shield, sac, Fade, iceblock, tremor totem, vanish etc..
    Monks have literally zero cc protection so at best they are tied for the worst.

  10. #10
    It's pretty universally known that WW monks aren't good in pvp atm. The buffs in 5.1 help but honestly won't be enough to ever justify playing one over another melee class. Maybe if flying serpent kick acted more like charge when targeting a player and they upped their innate survivability they'd be in a better spot. Also the positional requirement for a full Paralysis, or any positional requirement in an online (i.e. lag) game shouldn't exist.

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
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    Monks are fine.

    No one knows how to play them yet.
    they say that doors open up soon as you find the missing key
    that’s probably why I’m in this bitch shining
    jump up in the sky and put the stars into alignment
    I rep the ATF in case you need to be reminded
    and the bandwagon's full but you can try an' run behind it

  12. #12
    I'm myself playing monk and feal that they are completely useless in example comparing them to warriors

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandrake View Post
    Monks are fine.

    No one knows how to play them yet.
    weird that it didn't take DK's 6 weeks to l2p.
    Monks are not fine.

  14. #14
    All classes have an arena comp they work really good in, except monks. There are 0 comps that actually need monks or in which monks would be better suited than other classes. Monks can't do anything that other classes can't do better.

    I call this NOT FINE.

  15. #15
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayma View Post
    weird that it didn't take DK's 6 weeks to l2p.
    Monks are not fine.
    DKs didnt learn to play in 6 weeks, they just didn't need to learn.

    What was your main before monk? Remember when you leveled up to max level the first time? Were you a gladiator 6 weeks after hitting max level? See, it's possible that you were 2200+ in your first six weeks on your first max level toon if you were a prodigy, picked a strong class and played with good players - but even if you were 2200+, I doubt pretty much anyone can claim they were a gladiator and knew everything to possibly know about their class in pvp within 6 weeks of leveling up in WoW: that's what it's like claiming that there aren't enough 2200+ monks yet (especcially when this season is so heavily skewed by KFC so far).
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    DKs didnt learn to play in 6 weeks, they just didn't need to learn.

    What was your main before monk? Remember when you leveled up to max level the first time? Were you a gladiator 6 weeks after hitting max level? See, it's possible that you were 2200+ in your first six weeks on your first max level toon if you were a prodigy, picked a strong class and played with good players - but even if you were 2200+, I doubt pretty much anyone can claim they were a gladiator and knew everything to possibly know about their class in pvp within 6 weeks of leveling up in WoW: that's what it's like claiming that there aren't enough 2200+ monks yet (especcially when this season is so heavily skewed by KFC so far).
    Who rolled monk obviously played beta too, WW has been this way since beta launched, i.e., completely utterly crap in pvp, since 7(?) months. Are you claiming you need 7 months to learn to play a class in arena? We told you the many, too many, problems of the monk, but you just continue to say us to l2p. Please stop. You are just embarassing yourself.

  17. #17
    Monks are "fine" judging from seeing them being played by good players. They're just weaker than every other melee in the game right now.

    1) All of their CC is melee and/or has very annoying requirement to be landed perfectly (see shs and paralyze) when other melee have plenty hard ccs and soft ccs castable from range that does the same thing with much less effort.
    2) Their mobility is terrible compared to... literally every other melee in the game. Roll and FSK being easily counterable is one example. They're kind of like Ret Paladins have been for a while till they got the tools they have now. This is less of a problem in a proper team (arena/rbg) than it is in random BGs, though.
    3) Extreme susceptibility to CCs. Many other melees have immunities to certain types of ccs or instant removals on low cds while Monks have absolutely nothing.

    In terms of damage and survivability we're fine. It would be nice to have some on demand burst that isn't tied to a random pet with an UI comparable to the cata Fire Elementals, though. Our self heals are really good (Chi Wave is pretty overpowered when it doesn't go jumping to random friendly targets, for example). RSK is one of the hardest hitting melee abilities in the game.

    Those issues doesn't make them unviable or unplayable; there are a few WW monks over 2.2k. The only problem is if you could choose between any other melee and a ww monks, there is just no comparison because everything we do they do better.

  18. #18
    Because all 3 monk specs suck in pvp. Need a healer? Bring a shaman or druid. Need melee? Bring a warrior or feral. Maybe a dk.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    DKs didnt learn to play in 6 weeks, they just didn't need to learn.

    What was your main before monk? Remember when you leveled up to max level the first time? Were you a gladiator 6 weeks after hitting max level? See, it's possible that you were 2200+ in your first six weeks on your first max level toon if you were a prodigy, picked a strong class and played with good players - but even if you were 2200+, I doubt pretty much anyone can claim they were a gladiator and knew everything to possibly know about their class in pvp within 6 weeks of leveling up in WoW: that's what it's like claiming that there aren't enough 2200+ monks yet (especcially when this season is so heavily skewed by KFC so far).
    Yeah, 6 weeks is enough to learn a class if you're a competitive pvp player. It's more than enough considering they've got the ability to play 100+ games a day.

    Guess how many days played has Dakkroth got on his resto shaman. 11 days. And he was 2554 last time i checked. Reckful started playing warrior only in MoP. And there are many others like that.

  20. #20
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strah View Post
    Yeah, 6 weeks is enough to learn a class if you're a competitive pvp player. It's more than enough considering they've got the ability to play 100+ games a day.

    Guess how many days played has Dakkroth got on his resto shaman. 11 days. And he was 2554 last time i checked. Reckful started playing warrior only in MoP. And there are many others like that.
    Right, if your a multi-gladiator, and you reroll to a spec you already have a very high degree of knowledge about (dakkroth as shaman, reckful as warrior) you can pick it up pretty fast if your putting in the time. Some monks are 2200+. Either this means some good players did reroll monk, did put in the time to learn the class already, and are getting into high ratings now - or monks are overpowered such that people who don't know the class are getting into high ratings now: because some monks are 2200+ and their representation more or less correlates to their population. Obviously since I'm not calling monks overpowered, some good players did reroll monk, put in the time, and are getting 2200+ now.
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