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  1. #61
    I liked the way arcane played in wrath and wish they would have built off of that. They just needed to take away some of the RNG from missile barrage or give us a way to actively Regen mana without evo.

    So with that said I would vote for changing our mastery to increase stack damage and revert the stacks to 4. Make the stacks more like combo points with a few finishers.. make nether tempest arcane only and consume stacks for more damage. Take away the proc on missles and have it consume stacks again. leave barrage as it is for cleave situations. Introduce a new spell that consumes charges for mana return for situations u get in trouble. make arcane power and evocate the same cool down for synergy. You could even have a spell to heal at the cost of stacks to give it a little more in PvP.

    This would add more depth then what wrath had and we could have our burst back.. which is what made arcane fun

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    And what you posted up there is nostalgia
    And that is the exact point I am making, it is not nostalgia. You can threaten me with mod action, but that wont change the fact that "burning" is not 'nostalgia', it is, in fact, a core aspect of the theme and soul of the Arcane spec.

    Yes.. I went there. Theme and Soul.

    Just like "freezing things and shattering them" is a core part of the gameplay that makes Frost unique. Just like "burning things (i.e. strong DOTS) is part of the theme and soul of Fire. Just like Affliction Warlocks are heavy on the DOTs and drains. The Burn phase is a core, fundamental part of Arcane and it has been for the entire lifetime of the spec. That is not nostalgia, that is historical context.


    What if someone changed affliction from a dot spec to a nuke spec? What if someone removed shatter from frost? What if someone removed ignite from Fire? Sure, they could replace it with something or they could replace it with nothing (which is the case for MoP Arcane) but in both cases, they would be wrong, because they are going against what those specs have as a gameplay at their very core, the Theme and Soul of the spec.

    What makes it even worse, is that the gutting of Arcane's burn gameplay hasn't even been replaced with anything. What can you honestly and with a straight face tell me is at the core of Arcane in MoP? What makes the spec unique? Mana management? Bah! How can you have any mana management when you have non scaling mana pools along with a static rotation along with no burn. You cannot have mana management if your mana never moves.
    There is nothing that separates Arcane at its core. It is a bland, simple, straightforward casting experience where once it was dynamic. This is not nostalgia, this is the point that is at the deeper core of what Lhivera and Blizz has done to Arcane in MoP. This is at the very heart of how badly the spec was raped in beta.

    Arcane is about Burn phases. That is what the spec has been about. Removing that part of Arcane is removing a fundamental concept of the spec. It is not just nostalgia. It is the identity of the spec itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Try to constructively post about possible changes
    Please, spare me the mod threat. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are not being "constructive".
    You are hand waiving away the argument and forcing your opinion down the discussions throat. You are wrong. You will be called out to it. Deal with it without flexing your mod muscles. Let your argument(s) prove your points, not your banstick (n.b. you haven't actually made a single argument that negates what I have said about Burning mana being a core part of Arcane gameplay - you have just said "No, its nostalgia" and threatened your banstick. You haven't even bothered to say what you think arcane is about then if it isn't about mana)
    Last edited by zomgDPS; 2012-11-08 at 10:45 PM.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  3. #63
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    My apologies if my desire for the posts to be constructive and less belligerent seemed like a threat with mod action. My idea is for the entire conversation to try to move in a pleasant tone because this topic is difficult and everyone has a different and strong opinion. Since I already posted my thoughts on the matter, I will distance myself from the conversation but continue reading the thread.

  4. #64
    Arcane is supposed to be about mana management and associated trade-offs, right? Additionally, it's always seemed like the 'cruel wizard warped by power' spec, i.e. Torment the Weak. So:

    Arcane Burden
    Passive

    While your Mage Armor is active, your Arcane Blast spell may be cast while moving, but its mana cost is increased by 100%.


    I like this solution for three reasons. One, the idea of the mage being crushed by his immense power and magical abilities is appealing to me, again along the lines of the 'dark', 'you don't know the things I've seen' sort of mage spec. Two, this maintains Blizzard's intent for the spec: it will be completely viable for short bursts of movement, but DPS would suffer terribly during longer periods of movement. Three, and this is the most subjective (and most easily remedied by simply adding it to the ability) is that Missiles would still have be cast while stationary. I think that is iconic of the arcane mage: plant your feet and bombard your selected enemy. It would fit the theme, to me, to force mages to plant and cast for a second even in the most hectic mobile situations. Again, if this was unpopular it could be added to the Arcane Burden spell.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    I will distance myself from the conversation but continue reading the thread.
    Why don't you be constructive instead and actually tell us what you think the new identity of the Arcane spec is in MoP?

    Because that is what we are fighting for right now. The identity of the Arcane spec. It has lost it in MoP. We want to get it back, whatever it is.


    Here are a few thoughts to get the juices flowing:


    * Arcane has always been about Burst damage and Burning mana.
    Look at the iconic spells for arcane. Arcane Power and Arcane Blast. Both have two very strong component themes that run through. Burn more mana, do more damage.
    Look at the other iconic spells. PoM. It was a clear sign that Arcane has always been about burst. For the longest times, even during the darkest days of the spec, Arcane Mages have always been feared for one thing, their burst. It was at the core of the spec. It has always been.

    Gameplay wise, the 'burn phase' has always been what has fundamentally separated Arcane from the other two specs (as well as any other casting spec in the game). The entire point of being given a core spell that makes DPM, DPS and MPS tradeoffs was so that the Arcanist could choose when in the fight he wants to burn his mana. No other spec was given that choice. You cannot 'spam fireball harder' to burn more mana.

    For the longest time, this concept of "the burn" was supported by the math for the spec. The DPM/DPS/MPS tradeoffs worked in the favor of burning, and the Arcanist was given a real DPS incentive to burn. In fact, if you didn't burn, you would be playing sub-optimally, and the Arcanist who had the more 'perfect' burn, did better. This is akin to a firemage timing his combustions with the larger ignites, or a frostmage making use of his shatter/FoF procs more optimally.
    What is the point of having a tool to burn your mana (AB), when mathematically you are punished for using it? It is just nonsense!

    This focus on the burn is also what made the Arcane spec more dynamic. The Arcane spec would shift the way it plays on an encounter by encounter basis, something that was almost unheard of in any other casting spec in the game. Arcanists would line up their big bursts with specific boss mechanics, allowing for a more strategic, 'meta' level thinking to be rewarded. If you charted out the rotations of the same Arcanist on boss A and then again on boss B, they would be completely different. It is precisely that effect which gave the spec life. Which made it unique.

    With the removal of a burn phase, all this gameplay is now lost. Arcane is now forced to just tunnel into a performing a specific, static rotation, that never changes, no matter what the boss is doing or what mechanic is in play. Do you know how strange it feels popping all your cooldowns, with Arcane power rolling and having to maintain the exact same rotation you were before?? It goes completely against the fundamental concept of the spec.

    When Arcanist's used to pop Arcane Power, things would change, rotations would change, your thinking would change, sh!t would get real. Now? You just pop the cooldown and continue going on about your business just like you would do anyway. That is a complete abandonment of the spec's core gameplay identity.


    The Burn phase. Strong burst. Burning mana. Are core fundamental parts of the identity for Arcane. If you remove those, what are you left with?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 04:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wafffles View Post
    Arcane is supposed to be about mana management and associated trade-offs, right?
    There is no mana management left in Arcane anymore.

    You either perform the static, never ending rotation and keep your mana at a specific point, or you are a bad mage. There is no 'management'. Its just a game of simon says. There is no thought, just execution.

    The only change that even exists, is what that static rotation is, and that just changes depending on which level 90 talent you pick.


    There is no longer any mana management left in MoP arcane. There is just mages who can follow the static rotation (which automatically keeps their mana at exactly where it needs to be) or there are bad mages.
    Last edited by zomgDPS; 2012-11-08 at 11:41 PM.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  6. #66
    Man, I can tell you right now that there are some mages in my guild cheering you on, zomgdps.

  7. #67
    Manapool no longer scaling with int procs really ruined the flavour of the spec for me so does the lack of on demand burst. Haste no longer "mattering" that much since haste is tied to our regen(faster casts=spend mana faster regen and u will come out on a 1/1 ratio) anyways just
    makes sure arcane won't be viable until perhaps last tier of the expansion when we have enough mastery to reforge into. What bugs me the most though
    is that the general concensus of players out there think that arcane is still a "Z0mg u guise 1 butt0n facer0ll spec" which is clearly not the case atm. But u know
    i'm with Z0mgdps on this one really, i really agree with the FACT that blizz are now desperetly trying to get more ppl playing into playing arcane with the 2% dmg increase buff on PTR. For me that's just not gonna cut it, not @all. They can see the numbers of how many active players are playing the spec atm, and atm arcane isn't viable not by a long stretch. It's viable in theory ofc, but so are alot of things But yeah Z0mgdps is right blizz will keep buffing arcane until it's good enough to be FOTM again and they won't do it in big buffs, they will do it in baby steps just to hide their current design failures with the spec, just as with the lvl 90 talents. This is coming from a guy who isn't a math geek and actually raids heroic content on a regular basis

  8. #68
    Bring 3.3.5 arcane back. That would the trick for me and probably for many other mages.

  9. #69
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friyn View Post
    Bring 3.3.5 arcane back. That would the trick for me and probably for many other mages.
    That's really not something I could agree with, 3.3. Arcane was at best mindless. While it was enjoyable to play, I wouldn't want to return to the period where the goal was for Arcane Blast to be the vast majority of our damage (I think my best was around 92% on some fights when at full heroic gear).

  10. #70
    While we're at it let's give Fire mages 75% crit chance again, that was what people believe was the peak of Fire gameplay too and was clearly always intended by Blizzard!
    I don't know if it's just me but I seem to be noticing a bit of a trend there.

  11. #71
    I'd like to see a glyph or change to arcane power. That makes it so when active, arcane missles has a 100% chance to proc arcane missles for lawllly missle burst. Or at least a way to go beyond just 2 stored procs

  12. #72
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alias Node View Post
    I'd like to see a glyph or change to arcane power. That makes it so when active, arcane missles has a 100% chance to proc arcane missles for lawllly missle burst. Or at least a way to go beyond just 2 stored procs
    This is actually a really good idea, but the problem is that the spell cost increase to damage spells would be severely diminished by it so it might require a work around or tweek in a different direction.

  13. #73
    To be frank, I'm not even sure why that mana penalty on Arcane Power even exists any more when the only "mana management" really remaining in Arcane revolves around the level 90 talent choices.
    Fire doesn't have any kind of downside to popping Combustion, nor does Frost have to pay anything to use Icy Veins. I actually am struggling to think of any class at all that has a penalty to using a damage-increasing buff that already has a cooldown on it.

  14. #74
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    I believe it's still there so it would prevent us from fishing for more Missiles procs using Blast while at 6 Charges during Power, because it would be a huge buff to our damage. Also, Power would be redundant without it, as it's pointless to have a damage increasing cooldown that doesn't change your gameplay in any significant way. Combustion is a damage spell with a cooldown, I wouldn't equate it to Power and Icy Veins in this way. Icy Veins allows more and faster procs (except with the glyph when it's identical to Power). Power just gives you more damage without the mana cost increase. If that part was removed, I'd completely remove the spell and integrate the damage into our standard rotation.

    But if it was revamped to do something completely different, to act as a true dps cooldown - it would make much more sense.

  15. #75
    I'm with you that cooldowns that aren't just brainless "push this, get more damage" buttons are good. I love Alter Time as a new spell for exactly that reason.
    I'm not quite so with you that Icy Veins really fits into that category. It just gives you a big chunk of a secondary stat which might lead to more procs but only does so because that's how the class works all the time with haste. You're doing the same thing but faster, not really doing a different thing, and don't actually change the way you play the spec because you'd be using your procs as you got them anyway.
    Time Warp is the same.
    Most cooldowns from other classes are the same, though you could argue that isn't especially relevant.
    Combustion probably isn't a fair comparison though you're right, Fire doesn't actually really have any kind of damage buff cooldown.

    The only change Arcane Power really makes to your rotation is that you cast ~one less Arcane Blast before clearing stacks (if you are unlucky and don't have any Arcane Missiles procs at the time), it's not all that dynamic.
    In the past it might have made a difference (honestly in reality it was never really a noticeable one, even when it decreased mana costs rather than increasing them) but I can't say I've seen one in MoP.

    Hell, if you want it to make a difference to your rotation why not go back to "makes your spells 10% cheaper" rather than more expensive?
    It's not like Blizzard would be incredibly averse to that as it was a set bonus once upon a time. It's still "changing your rotation" but in a way that isn't a penalty.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-11-09 at 08:09 PM.

  16. #76
    Is Imnick Lhivera's new protege or something? Everything he writes seems to continue sounding like something Lhivera would say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    While we're at it let's give Fire mages 75% crit chance again, that was what people believe was the peak of Fire gameplay too and was clearly always intended by Blizzard!
    I don't know if it's just me but I seem to be noticing a bit of a trend there.
    Did you actually just compare Cata Arcane to the broken WotLK Fire?? This whole "Arcane is just a one button spam lol AB AB AB" thing is getting real old real fast.

    Arcane was more complex in Cata than just being a 1 button spam. I know this, the rest of the mages know this, heck, even Blizz knows this. You and Lhivera can keep on repeating it as much as you want, but it wont make it true. You are wrong, move along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I'm with you that cooldowns that aren't just brainless "push this, get more damage" buttons are good. I love Alter Time as a new spell for exactly that reason.
    I'm not quite so with you that Icy Veins really fits into that category.
    This is the other argument I am just getting completely sick of hearing. The "Well Frost doesn't have that so why should Arcane" argument is just straight up bullsh!te.

    Frost already is more 'fun' to play. It has a TON of things that make it fun that Arcane doesn't. It has a ton of gameplay. It has a TON of advantages over arcane (e.g. mobility). Frost already has much more going for itself than Arcane does. So this is why I am constantly baffled by just how puerile frostmages can actually get.

    So just because Frost's Icy Veins doesn't 'change your rotation enough', Arcane's Arcane power can't? How is that a fair argument?? If you have a problem with Frost, go create another thread and get it fixed. Why do you have to come into an Arcane thread and try to ensure the changes we want don't happen??

    II never understand why non-Arcanists like Imnick and Lhivera want to keep Arcane in the gutter. Why they will go out of their way to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    To be frank, I'm not even sure why that mana penalty on Arcane Power even exists any more when the only "mana management" really remaining in Arcane revolves around the level 90 talent choices.
    Fire doesn't have any kind of downside to popping Combustion, nor does Frost have to pay anything to use Icy Veins. I actually am struggling to think of any class at all that has a penalty to using a damage-increasing buff that already has a cooldown on it.
    In the scheme of what is wrong with Arcane, the mana penalty of Arcane Power is at the very bottom.

    Trying to focus on that almost irrelevant issue does nothing except from detract from the real issues of the spec. But this is a technique well used by Lhivera (that is why I asked if you were his protege or something).

    He did the same thing when he made it so that the Water Elemental's freeze ability reticule targeting was suddenly the most important mage issue. He did this so as to distract from the real mage issue(s) that people wanted to discuss/fix, that being, the level 90 talents.



    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    it's pointless to have a damage increasing cooldown that doesn't change your gameplay in any significant way.
    As far as damage cooldowns go, this is the only point worth discussing for the Arcane spec.

    The Arcane spec, historically, has changed its rotation when under the effects of Arcane Power. This is part of the legacy and identity of the spec and it is part of what makes it unique.

    But if you look deeper, you will see why this point is so important.

    Arcane would change its rotation under AP not because of something that AP was doing (e.g. it wasn't like AP was increasing AM chances or buffing stack damage), but simply because the burn phase existed. That was part of the subtle beauty of the elegant design, that AP didn't inherently do anything to allow for Arcane's burn phase to exist, but it was an organic decision by the Arcanist to change his rotation to a full burn to maximize the use of AP. The key words here are 'organic', 'elegant' and 'choice'.
    The Arcanist had to line up his burn phases (which he could perform even out of AP if he wanted) with the AP cooldown. That is the key. The fact that he could 'burn' even outside of AP. That is what made the spec.

    Arcane Power was never the thing that directly allowed for Arcane's burst, it was just a supplement. But when it was used, Arcane was going into its burn phase and it is that what changed the rotation.
    That gameplay, that 'feel' needs to return and it needs to return not through some change to AP, but through the re-introduction of a controlled burn phase in Arcane gameplay.

    The core of the Arcane is controlled burns which are under the control of the player. The fact that Arcanists could burn even when outside of AP. That has to be preserved.


    So no. Overall, changing AP so that it basically 'makes' Arcane's burn phases exist is not the way to go. Arcane should be able to burn regardless of AP. AP just needs to exist to supplement it, preferably in its current, simple elegant form.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  17. #77
    I think you read my words backwards ZomgDPS, I was not saying that another caveat should be added to Icy Veins to make it more interesting, I was saying that Arcane Power at present does not have much effect on your rotation apart from making it do more damage, similar to Icy Veins, and so they should change the bonus effect so that it actually does. It is clearly designed to have some effect on your rotation beyond making the numbers it produces larger, but that design is not met because the effect of pressing the button is minimal if you are using Rune of Power (and due to the talent design, what else would you be using as Arcane?)

    Also you continue to insist that I do not play Arcane. That is also not true. Your arguments are weakened if you continue to use lies as fact, when I have already disproved them.

    You even say yourself in your post that Arcane Power has little effect on your rotation and that is important... which is exactly what I just said.
    If they are going to have an added mana change effect on Arcane Power (they should, cooldowns that do more than just increase the number you are putting out are more interesting) then it should actually be one that effects your rotation. Make AB cheaper instead of more expensive, and to a degree that is actually noticeable to the player.

    Literally nobody in this topic said that AP should become the button you press to suddenly "turn on" a burn phase either, so I don't know why you're addressing that as if it was a point someone made.

    I would find it much easier to muster the energy to bother trawling through your massive walls of inflammatory text if you didn't continue to misattribute my words and make ridiculous claims like "you don't even play an arcane mage" while not even bothering to provide your own armoury link yourself.
    You seem to be making up opponents to disagree with rather than arguing with anyone who is actually posting in this topic.

    If you continue to reply in this manner I think I'm just going to have to pretend you've already slipped up and started flat out calling people retarded as I'm sure you'll manage to within a couple of weeks and got yourself banned again, talking to you when you're making up your own post and person and then pretending that that person is me and the post was mine is not a particularly productive use of my time.
    You are clearly a passionate man and I respect that, but I fear that your passion often clouds your judgement and you see things in people's words that clearly do not actually exist, because it makes it easier for you to turn them into demons that you must defeat with your righteous words of justice.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-11-09 at 08:57 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Make AB cheaper instead of more expensive, and to a degree that is actually noticeable to the player.
    And this precisely what I'm showing is something that they shouldn't do. Because if they did, then AP would be the only way for Arcane to have a burn phase, which is completely against the core principles of the spec. That being, that Arcane should be able to burn outside of AP as well. Meaning, whether or not Arcane can burn is independent of Arcane Power, and instead it is a real choice that the player makes.

    It is things like this which make me say that you have no clue about what you are talking about when you talk about Arcane (as well as the fact that I haven't found a single log of yours where you are actually raiding as Arcane, and neither is your armory reflecting that, and neither is the words you say showing that you have an even elementary understanding of Arcane). This is exactly the same problem I have with Lhivera. As I have show in my posts linking to his, he doesn't even know the basic mechanics of how Arcane spells work, but he still feels he can comment on the spec with authority.

    What was your 'proof' that you played Arcane? That you just 'said so'? Lol. I have just 'said so' that I am the queen of sheeba. Proof enough? Good. Now bow to me!
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  19. #79
    You found my armory, you should be able to find World of Logs pretty easily.
    But here, as you seem not to lack the skills to use google I shall produce it for you: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...N/Arcane_Mage/
    I play every mage spec. I care about every mage spec. They all fill a certain niche at the moment and are fairly competitive, if you don't care about doing the maximum damage possible. Arcane is the weakest if you do care about that but still has its niches to fill.
    I cannot equip all three specs at the same time.
    Blizzard want to fix Arcane by just buffing its damage, which is certainly welcome but misses the core issues that it has with dealing with movement, especially in conjunction with the level 90 talents. This is why I believe mana regeneration should be decoupled from the level 90 talents (it's not like it has any effect on any spec but Arcane in the first place) and then measures tested from there to see if that change alone is enough to bring its capability of dealing with encounter mechanics in line with the other two specs. If not, we can work from there.

    Now, as you have taken the trouble to derail your own argument with these irrelevancies, can we have some evidence that you actually have some experience raiding as Arcane?
    You don't seem to have linked your Armoury anywhere and there's no mage called ZomgDPS anywhere that I can find.
    After all, clearly it is only people that play the spec in current content that can have any legitimacy in discussion, if you are to be believed!
    Are you perhaps one of the 18 people who have ranked higher as Arcane than I am? I can't imagine why someone with such mastery of the spec would want his prowess to stay hidden.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-11-09 at 09:16 PM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    You don't seem to have linked your Armoury anywhere and there's no mage called ZomgDPS anywhere that I can find.
    Lol. You think I need to prove that I know what I'm talking about?

    No hunny. Not really. Unlike you and Lhivera, anyone who can read a single word that I have ever written can tell I know wtf I am talking about. Unlike you and Lhivera, I don't go off bumbling completely nonsensical statements like "Oh Arcane doesn't have a burn phase but thats fine". Any retard can listen to that and be like "yea.. that guy just hasn't ever played Arcane if he thinks the burn phase is not important to the spec".

    Any listener can read your words and will question whether or not you have even played the spec. They can read mine and they would not say that in the slightest.

    But yea, you are correct, this thread isn't about beating up on you. I mainly wanted to come and put a stop to the idea that "OH changing AP will solve Arcane's problems".

    The only thing about AP you need to keep in mind is what I have written above. The only thing we need to make sure of is that the don't change AP to be the only way Arcane has a burn phase. Now that those points are clear we can close the chapter on AP, for now at least.

    Moving on.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

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