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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Lol. You think I need to prove that I know what I'm talking about?
    Yes, you should definitely be prepared to do anything you require anyone else to do yourself.
    Surely you don't have anything to hide?

    Once again you have proven you don't actually read my posts but instead substitute your own words and then pretend I said them. I never said changing AP would solve all of Arcane's problems, talking to Shangalar about AP was a separate discussion.
    If you want to know how I would fix Arcane's problems try reading my previous post.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-11-09 at 09:33 PM.

  2. #82
    The Patient Sneglzilla's Avatar
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    May just be me, but I enjoy arcane as it is right now. Used it on our first Elegon heroic kill aswell.. The damage is pretty zzz compared to fire, but it's got certain perks fire just doesnt have such as reliable nuke and a better aoe (not cleave, 10+ targets aoe)..

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alias Node View Post
    I'd like to see a glyph or change to arcane power. That makes it so when active, arcane missles has a 100% chance to proc arcane missles for lawllly missle burst. Or at least a way to go beyond just 2 stored procs
    This is actually a really good idea, but the problem is that the spell cost increase to damage spells would be severely diminished by it so it might require a work around or tweek in a different direction.
    As mentioned earlier, it isn't a good idea.
    Again, we need to ensure that the execution of Arcane's burn phase is a quality that is independent from some particular cooldown.

    The strength of Arcane's burn (since all the way back in BC) comes from the fact that it is entirely in the mage's control. The mage doesn't neccesarrily need to wait for a specific cooldown before he can even initiate the burn. That part is key.


    Now sure, it may not always be best to burn outside of AP, or when Evo is still on CD, but still, that doesn't physically prevent you burning. Sometimes it actually makes more sense to burn even though Evo is still on CD. Maybe there is some raid mechanic that will give you all your mana back (mana voids?) within 15 secs, maybe the boss will die soon. In those moments, the fact that Arcane can actually, physically burn without having to rely on anything else is what gives the spec its tangy flavor. We want that flavor back.

    Basically, the key to ensure Arcane can burn through no other means but through cycle choice (i.e. shifting his AB stacks).

    Everything else will come in as a support for the burn phase.



    Though I fear we are getting ahead of ourselves. We first need to ensure Arcane even has a burn phase in the first place, before we actually work out the details on how cooldowns will work with it.
    And the culprit for the lack of Arcane's burn phase? I've been saying it since the change was made in beta. The real culprit (apart from Lhivera) for why Arcane cannot burn anymore is the 6 stack change.

    We need to find a way around that.

    Refocus your efforts on that, leave AP for now.


    edit:
    That all being said, the "going beyond 2 stacks of AM" thought has a lot promise.

    Perhaps a mechanic that allows the number of AM stacks you can potentially have to scale with your Arcane Charge stack? Basically, something that might allow us to "bank" many AM charges so that we can use them for some upcoming burn phase.
    It might help getting AM back into its real form, that being, a proc that we thought about when to use instead of just using it as soon as it pops.

    As said, this mechanic would have to be core to the spec and not attached to any cooldown.
    Last edited by zomgDPS; 2012-11-09 at 09:41 PM. Reason: because I'm a baws
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  4. #84
    I can't help but notice you still haven't bothered to show anyone you know what you're talking about ZomgDPS, you continued to insist that I could only be taken seriously if I proved that I have raided as Arcane. You are going to have to do the same thing.

  5. #85
    I was disappointed when they decided not to create Arcane Orb. An orb that looks like Ultraxion's Hour of Twilight which fires beams of arcane energy that chains across multiple enemies would be great, but they would probably have to tone it down due to the lag it might cause.

  6. #86
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    zomgDPS, you misunderstand some of us who post here - we don't care about the burn phase and we are debating some of Arcane's issues to fix the current situation without reinstating the burn phase.

    Advocating for the burn phase is welcome from your end and from anyone who agrees with you, but some of us here aren't doing that and you keep twisting our arguments into the burn phase argument. As you said, let's not get ahead of ourselves

    As for the debate between you two - while it's always a great idea to understand the credibility of someone who is strongly expressing their opinion, I would appreciate it if we could avoid such discussions as they are counterproductive for our efforts here. Likewise, bashing people who are not posters here is also something we do not promote and I would appreciate it if we could completely remove Lhivera from our discussions as she is irrelevant to this discussion. For all I care, Imnick could *be* Lhivera and that would still make it pointless to drag her into the discussion or to reduce the discussion to a personal level.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I can't help but notice you still haven't bothered to show anyone you know what you're talking about ZomgDPS, you continued to insist that I could only be taken seriously if I proved that I have raided as Arcane. You are going to have to do the same thing.
    You also perhaps can't help but notice that I am ignoring you specifically since you seem more intent on trolling rather than discussion the thread. (Another tactic used by Lhivera almost constantly. When he is cornered and cannot prove what he says through either experience or fact, he turns his full attention to derailing the discussion).

    The thread is about the Arcane spec. Either discuss it or shut up and listen or get banned for attempting to derail the thread.
    The choice is yours buddy. I'm moving on. The day you can show me you know wtf you are talking about should be the day you return.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Dither9 View Post
    I was disappointed when they decided not to create Arcane Orb. An orb that looks like Ultraxion's Hour of Twilight which fires beams of arcane energy that chains across multiple enemies would be great, but they would probably have to tone it down due to the lag it might cause.
    High target AOE across all three specs could probably do with some reworking, not because it isn't strong but because it's not very interesting.
    Frost's is probably the one that needs least work as they already have Frozen Orb.
    Arcane Barrage is workable but you cannot reliably build charges with Arcane Explosion, and it requires you to already be in melee range.
    Fire lost a lot of its charm with the Inferno Blast target cap, though I know why they did it.

    I would hesitate to add orbs for all three specs but I am not going to lie, I have been in love with the idea of an orb pulsing Arcane Explosion ever since we first heard about Flame Orb as a mage spell.
    I suppose another option that isn't quite so close to duplicating a spell from another class (my main complaint about mage AOE is that it boils down to using three spells available to every mage spec) could be an immobile variant that is ground-placed and pulses arcane explosion (on a cooldown but shorter than Frozen Orb) with a higher chance to generate charges for cleaving with Arcane Barrage.
    This would have to have a minimum target cap for generating a charge (3 or possibly 4 targets) in order to prevent its use on a single target.

    And don't worry Shangalar, as zomgDPS's last post has finally cemented my suspicion that he really doesn't have anything productive to contribute in any discussion (not even being capable of reading his opponent's words before replying to them) and holds himself to different standards than anyone else he'll become the sole occupant of my ignore list. This shouldn't happen again.
    Frankly I'm starting to believe he's just trying to hide the fact that he's not even subbed any more.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-11-09 at 09:49 PM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    For all I care, Imnick could *be* Lhivera and that would still make it pointless to drag her into the discussion or to reduce the discussion to a personal level.
    Oh he most certainly isn't Lhivera lol. Lhivera hasn't even stepped foot in a raid.

    Furthermore, Lhivera is a he. He plays the role of a girl to get support, which is stupid imho.



    The reason I keep bringing 'burn phases' into the discussion, Shangalar, is because the things you are discussing will directly effect any potential burn phase that Arcane may have.

    Now you personally might not care if Arcane has a burn phase or not (though you still haven't answered my question from the previous page. If you don't think Arcane is about burn phases and mana, what do you think Arcane is about then? What, according to you, is the identity of the spec??)
    But for many career Arcanists, that is a key defining quality of the spec. The same way shatter is for frost, or ignite for fire.

    The irony in all this though, is that in your attempt to "Make AP more interesting and have it change your rotation" you are actually advocating for a burn phase for Arcane in the first place! Except, all you are doing is linking that burn phase with the AP cooldown.

    All I am saying, is that if you want to have an "interesting" phase of gameplay for Arcane, why link it to a cooldown? Why not have it be what it has always been, that being, something that has always existed under the mage's control, and something that cooldowns supplement in a subtle way?
    Last edited by zomgDPS; 2012-11-09 at 09:57 PM.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  10. #90
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Currently the identity of Arcane is focused on maintaining your mana as close to 100% as possible. Here you might say - but that is brainless because it's too tied to level 90 talents and because we have no other serious means of mana regen and what's the point of mana regen if we don't burn mana, etc. But in practice it's not like that - in practice you need to actively think whether this next Blast is going to reduce the damage you do in the future because of your mana or will it increase your damage because of the passive mana regen you have. The only case this isn't so is with Invocation where you need a completely different mindset.

    As I've said before - I like it like this because I have to think about what I'm doing every couple of spellcasts and it does not include waiting for cooldowns or monitoring procs. And to further point on this - with Arcane Power, the complication of how the next Blast will affect our damage is emphasized even futher. Where is the border between "one more blast" and "mastery bonus lost due to mana loss"? I find that intriguing and thrilling.

  11. #91
    High Overlord Sektorx's Avatar
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    Let me start off by saying I have been in love with arcane mages ever since Arcane Blast was added in the 2.0 patch. I've spent years trying to make it work, despite it not being very attractive for alot of the time I was playing it. What I loved so much about it was that you could always make it work somewhat. Usually with some unintended methods, but that's besides the point.
    I have had an overall view of how I want arcane to play. Let me just go ahead and tell you that this is just what I want it to be, I'm sure alot of people would disagree.

    Arcane could be a really cool spec, but it needs work to become interesting again. Personally I fell in love with Arcane Blast when trick was to gain as much mana as possible so you could burst out some serious numbers. Mana management became way too binary over the course of time and too reliant of standing in one spot.
    What if you would just straight out delete the mastery.
    I like how AB stacks to 6 these days, how AM doesn't drop stacks, but ABarr does. Let's keep this except for ABarr dropping stacks.
    However reduce manacost of AB significantly and re-add a small castspeed increase per charge.

    The debuff time on Arcane Charge should be reduced to 5 or 6 seconds at most.
    Now on fights with alot of movement, this would mean the charges dropping off at a bad time alot. We can counter that by getting a new version of the Mystical meta gem. Having a 0.5sec AB procced cast could be just what you need to keep the charges up and not having to stop for too long.
    What I loved about arcane back in TBC was the rotation. Starting the new AB cast before charge dropped off, but finishing it after it dropped to get the castspeed bonus but not the increased damage / manacost was genious. It made the rotation alot more fluent and at the same time abit more punishing for bad play. This can only work if AM is a desired spell and part of the rotation aswel as ABarr. ABarr should do enough damage to be a spell you want to use, but not enough to be a spell you would want to replace AM with.
    It's also because of this you would want a short debuff time on Arcane Charge. You would ride out the Arcane Charge debuff by using ABarr and AM incase it procs.
    Time it right and you can clip it to get a faster stack 1 built and get back into a big burn.
    Aside from this we need a solution for mastery. What I would do is bring back Clearcasting (the manafree cast, not the instant cast) and let mastery increase the chance for that to happen. It's simple, it's a proc to watch for and it has a large impact on your rotation / priority.

    All in all this could make arcane a versatile spec.
    Dropping the current mastery would give it quite abit more mobility. Your rotation would be engaging and dependant on alot of factors. There would be a part luck envolved but reliant on proper play. Perhaps abit too punishing for new players, but that's up for discussion. You could just increase the value of mastery to get a more reliable rotation. The higher proc chance Clearcasting has, the easier it becomes to play.

    /wall of text.

    edit: Let me just add that I don't see arcane turning into something interesting this expansion. It needs too much work to just get fixed with minor tweaks.
    Last edited by Sektorx; 2012-11-09 at 10:49 PM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Currently the identity of Arcane is focused on maintaining your mana as close to 100% as possible. Here you might say - but that is brainless because it's too tied to level 90 talents and because we have no other serious means of mana regen and what's the point of mana regen if we don't burn mana, etc. But in practice it's not like that - in practice you need to actively think whether this next Blast is going to reduce the damage you do in the future because of your mana or will it increase your damage because of the passive mana regen you have.
    I am very familiar with this. This was, in fact, a subset of the things the Arcane mage from Cata would have to think about. But there is a massive, fundamental difference now.

    There is no variability. The math for the cycles is done and we have our static optimal rotation. With no procs such as MoE or Clearcasting as well as a static mana pool, there is no variability is cycle MPS usage. This means, that there is a single optimal rotation that if you follow will automatically ensure that you "maintain your mana as close to 100% as possible". What I'm basically saying is, that there is actually no thought required, you just need to follow the script.

    Now sure, not every Arcane mage out there might know the script, so to them it may seem like they have to figure it out and so that may seem to be 'fun' for you, but thats like taking a fire mage and telling him the core identity of his spec is to 'figure out your rotation'.


    What I think you are suffering from, Shangalar, is a lack of knowledge about the Arcane. You haven't read up about the spec and so you think that 'figuring it out' is fun. But what you don't know is that people have already figured it out.
    Check out the thread on EJ. Kavan plainly lists the optimal cycles on a per level 90 talent basis. You can double check his math too (he is rarely wrong). If you follow those cycles, you will never have to think about your charge stack or anything else. Its just like another simple rotation that every spec in the game has.

    What is different though, is that every other spec has something else as well. Something other than just "having a rotation" which is its identity.

    So no. I just do not agree that you are making a solid argument. You cannot have a spec whose entire identity is "This spec has a rotation" Every spec has a rotation, but they have a lot else too.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  13. #93
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Can you point me to where I can find this? I've always had a problem with EJ forums for being too disorganized.

    Also, the rotation is not always static and the mana per cycle is not always static. Without any level 90 talents, there are several combinations:
    4AB+2AM+1Barr
    4AB+1AM+1Barr
    5AB+0AM+1Barr
    5AB+1AM+1Barr
    5AB+2AM+1Barr
    6AB+0AM+1Barr
    6AB+1AM+1Barr
    6AB+2AM+1Barr

    Also, combinations with breaking the AB cycle with Missiles:
    3AB+1AM+1AB+2AM+1Barr

    etc. I don't want to spam too much. After each of those cycles your mana spent and mana regained will be different and it can, but doesn't have to, influence how you perform the cycle that follows. If he analyzed all of these possibilites, I applaud it and appreciate it. Even so, I'd love to read his data if you can link it.

  14. #94
    No no no. You're approaching it all wrong.

    You shouldn't focus on how many potential cycles theoretically exist, only on the viable and optimal ones. e.g. 6AB 0AM is never viable, etc etc Like that, through a process of elimination, you just get rid of all the non-optimal and/or nonsense cycles. What is left behind is the static set.

    Furthermore, you cannot just 'ignore the level 90 talents'. Instead, you need to just Kavan's solver on a per talent basis.
    At the end of the day though, the results are static.

    Let me dig up the EJ thread for you.


    Edit:

    Here it is.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  15. #95
    An orb spell that does aoe damage each time we get an arcane charge, for 12s, and increase the chance to get a charge with Arcane Explosion by 20% would be perfect.

    I really miss Fire Orb, a 1-3 minute cooldown, with some cool animation. I'm playing arcane and I like the new charges and mechanics, there's no need of burn phase, I prefer to constantly play with my mana instead of once every 90s.
    Last edited by Zoros; 2012-11-10 at 08:30 PM.

  16. #96
    one change Id like to see is to rune of power. instead of it going onto the ground make it a buff that you cast on yourself. you can still make the same rules apply: last 1 minute, still have to cast (tho id love for that to be gone) and you can still make it so you only get the buff when you are standing still but it would give all specs more mobility and give all specs a viable option to evocation.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Balo View Post
    one change Id like to see is to rune of power. instead of it going onto the ground make it a buff that you cast on yourself. you can still make the same rules apply: last 1 minute, still have to cast (tho id love for that to be gone) and you can still make it so you only get the buff when you are standing still but it would give all specs more mobility and give all specs a viable option to evocation.
    I still think it would make RoP too op, the talent is balanced on not having full uptime, I would rather have it be so that you will gain the RoP effect for 3-5 secs after being in the rune.. so you can do near free movement and player skill would still matter, but ye have to see what happens

  18. #98
    The main problem I am having with arcane is that AM just procs so rarely, that the normal 'theory crafted' rotations just don't work.

    In experiments on dummies, I will get to 6 AB stacks with no AM procs over half the time and not getting to 2 stacks over 80% of the time, that just leaves nothing useful to cast except to just reset the stacks again and start AB again. The only way I can currently get good sustainable dps is doing the scorch rotation, which everyone says sucks.

  19. #99
    arcane is too random, it's not uncommon to get 6 arcane stacks and no AM procs. Then your dps takes a nosedive, theorycrafting numbers doesn't prove viability of a spec.

    I think maybe they should change AM back to when you could cast it whenever you wanted and it didn't need to proc. to cast.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by jonoy8 View Post
    arcane is too random, it's not uncommon to get 6 arcane stacks and no AM procs. Then your dps takes a nosedive, theorycrafting numbers doesn't prove viability of a spec.

    I think maybe they should change AM back to when you could cast it whenever you wanted and it didn't need to proc. to cast.
    You would literally never cast any other spell
    (Except possibly mage bomb)

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