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  1. #21
    The 90 talents need a change for arcane to be viable on anything other than Patchwerk fights, to be honest.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    There's nothing wrong with the rotation and it's more interesting than the old days of pressing arcane blast and doing your best to never cast anything else,
    /rollseyes

    Riiiight, because spamming AB over and over again is exactly what Arcane was in Cata, right?

    It sounds like I'm listening to Lhivera talking about Arcane.


    No mention of how dynamic mana pools affected the rotation.
    No mention of synergies between talents such as Clearcasting, Master of Elements, and Arcane Barrage.
    No mention of synergies between mini-burn phases, flame orb, and Arcane Missiles.
    No mention of the fact that AM wasn't just a "ZOMG its procced use it asap without thinking" but an actual mana management tool.
    No mention of the fact that the burn phase (the only time where you spammed AB) was actually only a minuscule part of Arcane gameplay, and it was infact all the other time you spent leading up to the most perfect burn which made the spec.
    No mention of the fact that Arcane's signature quality, the fact that it could in fact burn on demand and burn hard, is the key quality of the spec that made it unique and it is that very same quality that was stripped and given to the frost spec instead.


    No. I mean, obviously not, right?

    Arcane in cata was just a mindless AB spam over and over and over again.


    /rollseyes.


    I don't even know why this thread exists tbh. Since you all have listened to the poison Lhivera has spewed into your ears about the Arcane spec anyway, how can you say the spec is suffereing in MoP?

    According to Lhivera, the spec is perfectly fine, both in terms of gameplay, how 'fun' it is to play and how well it performs in both high end PvE and PvP. This is, obviously, due to his massive extensive experience with the spec.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  3. #23
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Arcane in cata was just a mindless AB spam over and over and over again.
    Your also not mentioning the rest of the detail of an arcane mage in cata. Yes the core rotation was spam AB and use cds but it was so much more tied to boss mechanics than the current specs because of that and it's limited mobility. I personally loved it and don't think we'll ever see anything like it again sadly.

  4. #24
    The Patient Brewswami's Avatar
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    ^ Agree. As someone who took pride in the arcane spec in cata and defended it against the throngs of ppl who said it was a 1 button spec I'm more then annoyed by the fact people still think it was simple to master in cata. Mobility was always and still is one of the most difficult challenges to overcome when raiding as arcane but imo there were more variables to consider in cata then in MOP. The list ZomgDPS posted pretty much sums it up. +1
    Jobahlie-Mage- Only of it's kind since Vanilla WoW

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Your also not mentioning the rest of the detail of an arcane mage in cata. Yes the core rotation was spam AB and use cds but it was so much more tied to boss mechanics than the current specs because of that and it's limited mobility. I personally loved it and don't think we'll ever see anything like it again sadly.
    Oh defiantly, my friend. There is TONS that I'm leaving out.
    On the mage TC forums that I visit, there are pages and pages of details written about the Cata Arcane spec by some of the best theorycrafters on the planet. Ways to maximize and squeeze out gameplay that really gave the spec life.

    The Arcane of MoP is probably the saddest gutting of a dynamic spec we have ever seen in the history of the game. The spec is now like the bastard retarded child of a balance druid's rotation mixed with the genes of Frostmages from BC. It is a travesty that history will remember for a loooong time.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  6. #26
    I loved arcane in Catacylsm and I love it now. I like frost, I like fire, but I love arcane for some reason.

  7. #27
    You can tell me it wasn't spamming AB until you're blue in the face, I've played all three specs in three expansions (it's not really fair to count Arcane in vanilla!). I know what it's like to play Arcane then, I know what it's like to play it now. I enjoy it more now.
    The rotation boiled down to doing your best to never having to push any button that wasn't AB. You obviously did push other buttons, but you did it in order to maximise the time you spent not having to.
    There was mana management involved but the new version is far more active, it just doesn't perform very well in movement situations.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-11-07 at 11:06 PM.

  8. #28
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    I love Arcane for its visual appeal and flavor. But currently its crap mobility and poor synergy with the 90 talents make my mage unfun.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
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  9. #29
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I love Arcane for its visual appeal and flavor. But currently its crap mobility and poor synergy with the 90 talents make my mage unfun.
    Rune of Power is amazing for Arcane, the issue is that it's usable only on a handful of encounters.
    Incanter's Ward is just fine for Arcane on certain fights.
    Invocation is not that usable by Arcane, however I haven't tested it yet on any fight so I'll see probably in LFR or something.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I know what it's like to play Arcane then, I know what it's like to play it now. I enjoy it more now.
    Says the mage with the mainspec Fire, and off spec Frost. /facepalm

    And that, my friends, is precisely what is wrong with Arcane right now. The loudest voices who are vehemently screaming "Arcane is fine! I love the spec" till the cows come home are the very same mages who do not play the spec at all (see sig).

    The most unfortunate side effect of this, is that the guy who seems to be the only person in the mage community that Blizzard listens to (Lhivera) just happens to be part of the aforementioned group. It also doesn't help that he seems to have a very large bone to pick with the spec. Unlike most, he is actually going out of his way to ensure the spec remains powerless to defend itself.
    I haven't seen behavior like that since Affx and his PvP ramblings. Though it makes sense, Affx and Lhivera were pretty much bffs. Lhivera just takes it to a whole new level.


    The one phenomena I have never understood about the mage community in particular, is why are mages who obviously do not play Arcane (like Lhivera and Imnick here), why do these mages try so very hard to ensure that the mages who do want to play the spec have a bad time. When the mages who want to play Arcane suggest changes to make the spec more enjoyable to play (not more powerful, just more fun), Mages just like Imnick and Lhivera come in and try so very very hard to ensure that nothing is changed and that the spec is as boring as it always is.
    Its mind boggling. Its like they get pleasure in seeing others suffer.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  11. #31
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    <snip>
    Someone has to defend blizz's decisions or we'd have no-one to argue against. I tried arcane on the beta levelling and on a dummy on the ptr. It immediately just felt wrong and I could see it was performing worse then fire and frost. The problem was blizz listened to all the people calling arcane a "one button noob spec" instead of the people who played it well. At least before people could play the spec badly or really well. Now we don't have that option.

  12. #32
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    I've personally been to Lhivera's blog a few times to see her Mage Bomb AoE damage analysis. Other than that I have no clue who that is and what they have been doing for whatever amount of time. As far as these forums go, I always enjoy reading Imnick's opinions as well.

    Likewise, I also believe that Arcane is currently in a good spot as far as gameplay is considered, our only issue is the giant drop in dps on very mobile fights. And guess what, I've been playing Arcane since Icecrown Citadel with slight digressions into Fire for Alysrazor in Firelands and parts of Dragon Soul. And I'm happy with what the spec was back then, I was happy in Cata and I am happy now. Sure, there's room for improvement, but I'm not looking for it on the fundamental gameplay level.

  13. #33
    I just miss arcane's insane burst. You could be in a burn phase for the entire fight on any boss in most heroic instances. The dps you could do on short fights was fucking amazing. I'll be dropping arcane for fire soon for obvious reasons. Right now I'm enjoying frost a lot...quite a bit of fun to play. I'd just like to see them buff the damage you get on Arcane Blast...but that's an obvious fix for the spec and Blizz is gonna want to make it more complicated than that...if they even buff it at all, which God i hope they do...

  14. #34
    zomgDPS I play all three specs every week depending on which boss we are fighting. I am Arcane chiefly for Elegon. It is not possible for me to equip three specs at once.
    Look me up on world of logs if you like.

    Insisting that I do not play Arcane and thus do not know what I am talking about is a waste of time, because it is obviously not true. Your mistaken belief that I do not play Arcane was also the only content in your post so I have nothing left to reply to.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-11-07 at 11:37 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Someone has to defend blizz's decisions or we'd have no-one to argue against. I tried arcane on the beta levelling and on a dummy on the ptr. It immediately just felt wrong and I could see it was performing worse then fire and frost. The problem was blizz listened to all the people calling arcane a "one button noob spec" instead of the people who played it well. At least before people could play the spec badly or really well. Now we don't have that option.
    Perhaps, though Lhivera takes 'defending blizzard' to a whole new level.

    Though in essence, you're right. There is no 'champion' for the Arcane spec in the mage community right now. Someone who can take Lhiv on one-on-one and prove him wrong. There used to be, back in early Cata. A theorycrafter called Logix.

    I really wish Logix hadn't quit WoW. He was the only theorycrafter who not only actually did the math but engaged the community too.

    I had hoped Batar would be it, but he is too weak (esp on the math front). I remember once Logix and Lhiv had an argument on the Cata beta forums, and, as usual, Lhivera was spewing random nonesense about Arcane being OP and posting wrong numbers about it (and, obviously, no one even bothered to test his math). Logix came in the next day, proved Lhiv wrong with correct math, built an entire simulator to prove him wrong and posted his findings not only on EJ but on the beta forums too. It was epic luls.
    Since then Lhiv shut up about Arcane. Until now that is.


    I mean just seriously, look at this post by him on the mage forums:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lhivera
    the Cata version had the same cast time, increased damage by 25% per stack, and only affected Arcane Blast itself. So whereas before it would take 8 seconds (minus haste) to ramp up to +100% damage on Arcane Blast, it will now take 8 seconds (minus haste) to ramp up to +96% damage on all spells, and 12 seconds to ramp up to +144% damage on all spells.

    you're ramping up faster, not slower
    You see what he's doing?

    He 'conveniently' forgot that in cata Arcane, the cast time of the spell reduced on every stack. Obviously, he distracts form his lack of actual basic mechanics knowledge about the spec by flooding the post with irrelevant numbers.
    What makes it better is the fact that he has also left out the fact that Arcane mages now are balanced around 6 stacks, not 4. But he wants you to think that you can just stay at 4 stacks and do competitive DPS, even when all the theorycraft proves him wrong.
    And I love the conclusion he comes up with. Everyone in their right mind who has even played the spec for 3 mins knows that "ramp up time" is one of the biggest problems of the spec. But? Due to faulty math, lack of knowledge and no one out there to call him on his bullsh!te, Lhivera says its not a problem, and retards believe him.



    Check out his other post, here

    Quote Originally Posted by Lhivera
    They didn't really take away Arcane's on-demand burst. They just eliminated its ability to sustain that burst for long periods of time. Which isn't really what burst is supposed to be.
    The classic "ARCANE JUST SPAMZ AB ALL THE TIME LOL BURN PHASE 100%" argument. Any mage who ever played the spec knew that you could not "burn for long periods of time" in Cata, since you would go OOM.

    Lhivera doesn't know this, but heck, who cares? His text is green, so I guess it must be so.



    So yea, in essence you are right. We have a green text mage in our community, who not only wants to defend Blizz since "Blizz can do no wrong", but also wants to ensure that the Arcane spec remains botched for the entire expansion. All because there is no one out there to defend the spec.

    What a sad, sad series of events. The icing on the cake, is when you read Lhiv's blog, he actually sees himself as the 'savior of the mage class' and he feels he is 'doing god's work'. Its like a fundamentalist mormon republican, but in Mage form.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-07 at 04:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    I've personally been to Lhivera's blog a few times to see her Mage Bomb AoE damage analysis.
    Oh I forgot to mention this. This is the REAL icing on the cake.

    Lhivera is a guy. He pretends to be a chic since it gives him an edge in making arguments (especially on a gaming forum). Numerous times he has been asked about his gender but he lets people believe he is a girl, since it makes arguing against him harder.

    Its pathetic really.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  16. #36
    This is how I personally would make Arcane more appealing:

    - Selecting Scorch talent makes Arcane Blast usable while moving
    - Rune of Power is instacast and off the GCD (but now has a 10 sec cd and increases damage by 12% instead of 15%).
    - Arcane Mastery: Increases damage based on how close the mage is to 50% mana (instead of how close they are to 100% mana). Being at 50% mana would be max benefit. Being at 55% mana is the same benefit as being at 45% mana, both of which are high benefit.

  17. #37
    Personally I think Arcane needs to get away from Arcane Blast and go back to either Fireball and Frostbolt. Arcane Blast IMO is what is holding Arcane back. Arcane should represent the most versatile spec utilizing either frost or fire at will like it used to be.

    I would actually like Arcane to become some kind of mage tank spec to be honest. You can have defensive spells like Blur, Protection from Magic Weapons, etc. If Arcane has to be a stationary spec Arcane should have some tools to remain stationary. I know this is problematic when it comes to boss fights but this is just how I think it should work in PvP.

    One thing that is nice in SWTOR is that interrupts only stop the caster from using that one spell which is how I think it should work for Arcane. If you get interrupted casting MM it should only stop you from casting MM and keeping your other spells available. This is one of the major disadvantages for playing Arcane since a lot of your defensive cooldowns are connected with Arcane (namely blink).

  18. #38
    im feel like im the only arcane mage out there T.T

    love the spec absolutly loving the rotation, its punishing if you over cast AB instead of AM

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Permanent Mirror Images!

    It's crazy! Different! We heard you like Mages, so we put Mages in your Mage spec so you can Arcane Blast while you Arcane Blast!

    Then have spells which interact with your Mirrors. It's kind of like GW2 Mesmer meets World of Warcraft.
    i like this idea of using mirror images as (making MI off GCD thought)

    A: each stack of arcane charge = number of mirror image casts arcane blast

    B: arcane charge increase the damage done by ur next mirror image per chage by X%

    C: your mirror image consumes half the arcane charge you currently have but doing so allows you to cast will moving for 1s per charge ( if its odd number then 5/2=2.5 so round it to 3 or something :P or have 50% change being 2 or 3)

    or just make AM casteable while moving :P
    Last edited by Soulstrike; 2012-11-08 at 12:23 AM.

  19. #39
    What I would like to happen:

    First of all:
    Remove mana-management mastery, never seen it as engaging as it was supposed to be. Could be replaced with boring bonus buff to each Arcane Charge.

    Mechanics change:
    Arcane Missiles become main nuke (similar to channelled Mind Flay), only source that gives Arcane Charge stacks
    Arcane Barrage becomes a castable spell with long cast or consumes Arcane Charges for instant one (somewhat Pyro-like)
    Arcane Blast replaced with something that have 'flying' part, gets buffs from amount of Arcane Charges
    Remove Arcane Explosion and make Cascade-like channeled AoE with visuals from having multiple Nether Tempests up (that also means Nether Tempest becomes single-target only)
    We get something like Spiritwalker's Grace, which uses Arcane Charges to be activated

    And with mana-management removed, I would like to see changes to lvl 90 talents in which Arcane Power becomes a talent, others would be something like Crit cooldown or Haste cooldown, maybe long-lasting or permanent 'Mirror Image Pet', possibly all of them would be activated only after using Mana Gem (I'm not seeing it being used for mana nowadays and even in the past I found it pretty dull to be used as such, having self-conjured buff item feels more fun).

    And to make arcane more appealing in PvP, rework it to be somewhat 'stealthy' spec with modified Invisibility.
    Last edited by Rilch; 2012-11-08 at 01:13 AM.

  20. #40
    Tried arcane for a little bit last night, it wasn't a really good experience >_>

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-epzj18zous8tl32v/

    Yes I ranked, but what does it matter? frost/fire blows it out of the water. Poor little arcane ; _ ;

    wtb at least a 8% dmg buff on ab/am/abarr

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