[Arcane] How could Arcane become more appealing?

[Alias Node]

Let scorch refresh arcane charges and give it a higher chance to proc missles.
Allow missles to be cast while moveing

Only thing i dont like about missles while moving is how it turns your toon to face the target

[Soulstrike]

Let scorch refresh arcane charges and give it a higher chance to proc missles.
Allow missles to be cast while moveing

Only thing i dont like about missles while moving is how it turns your toon to face the target

i like the idea but that would make scorch only viable talent in t1,

either make scorch a baseline spell and make another talent in t1 or leave it as it is :/

[schwarzkopf]

Well - after 8 years of arcane, through thick and thin, I'm now Fire.

What disturbs me is that within an hour of trying out Fire as a complete noob with it I was already surpassing well practiced Arcane.

Why - because low procs on Arcane Missiles damaged my output WAY more than low procs on Heating Up and Pyro.

Looking forward to the day I can go arcane again, cause I hate playing fire.

---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 10:51 PM ----------

i like the idea but that would make scorch only viable talent in t1,

For Arcane - it pretty much already is.

[Zoros]

1. With the current amount of fears, interrupts, inmunitys and spell reflects, to succesfully cast just 2 Arcane Blast to a player is not easy. Probably the incoming nerfs will help.

2. Alter Time or Arcane Power should be undispeleable. I vote for Alter Time, it's really confusing to expect to be teleported back and just die.

3. The amount of charges feels too high in PvP, we need too much time to do damage, and with all this fears and stuns, is too easy to lose it. The old amout felt more confortable. I love the cleave mechanic of Arcane Barrage, but it feels unnecessary over 4 charges. 5 Barrages is a good amount.

4. Ice Ward is not reliable in PvP as it is in PvE, it's not playable as Water Elemental Freeze, so it's hard to get crits in PvP as Arcane. We should have a more solid way to do shatter combos with Arcane Barrage, Living Bomb and Frost Bomb. We need a ranged aoe freeze. Maybe Ice Ward could be changed to Ice Mark, being castable on enemy targets, or a new spell could be added, some frost spikes that freezes all the targets in front of us. Or maybe water elemental's Freeze could be the mage spell and Frost Nova the pet spell.

5. Slow range feels short, it's confusing to be able to cast Arcane Blast at 40yd but not Slow. On the other hand, reflected slow with Arcane Blast glyph is unfair. What sould be reflected is Arcane Blast damage, not slow.

6. Polymorph is unreliable and outdated, compared to Cyclone or Fear, it's underpowered and the glyph to improve it feels more like a glyph to patch it.

7. Temporal Shield takes too much time to heal, that make it really unreliable at low health. In PvE usually it ends in overhealing because healers heal faster than a 10s HoT.

8. Greater Invisibility is horrible, it always fails.

9. We need some kind of 2-3m cool spell like Frozen Orb.

10. Arcane Blast chance to proc Arcane Missiles feels a bit too low.

[Deleted]

Looking forward to the day I can go arcane again, cause I hate playing fire.

It is possible that patch 5.1 will allow that. There is a new change in the PTR:

The mana cost of Arcane Charge stacks is only 75% - down from 125%.

[Shangalar]

It is possible that patch 5.1 will allow that. There is a new change in the PTR:

The mana cost of Arcane Charge stacks is only 75% - down from 125%.

WHAT? If that is true, I can see Arcane rapidly spinning to top dps plus using Invocation.
*jiterry*

[Imnick]

That's a pretty massive change, can't see it making live without either being rolled back or compensated in other areas.
It's also still not the changes we need, this boosts damage without dealing with mobility at all :/

[Shangalar]

Math time:

Mana cost of Arcane Blast:

125% 75%
0 4500 4500
1 10125 7875
2 15750 11250
3 21375 14625
4 37000 18000
5 32625 21375
6 38250 24750

That's theoretically a huge dps increase which makes Mastery even more valuable and allows even more combinations to go to 5-6 Charges via Blast. Currently reaching 6 stacks with Blast costs 111375 mana (minus mana regen for full effect) and with that change it would cost 77625 (minus mana regen for full effect).

*still jittery*

If this turns out to be a hoax I might murder someone

[Deleted]

If this turns out to be a hoax I might murder someone

No, not a hoax. In the PTR the tooltip still shows 125% so I was a little surprised when my mana didn't go below 90% what ever I did.

If you don't believe me read the post by Damien at Icy Veins mage forum.

[NPI]

I checked it. Although its not in the patch notes, in PTR arcane charge's debuff tooltips says +25% dmg (not 24% as in patch notes) and +75% mana.
AB cost with 6 stack is actually 24750, so its not a hoax. I hope patch will go live with these values...

[Soulstrike]

Math time:

Mana cost of Arcane Blast:

125% 75%
0 4500 4500
1 10125 7875
2 15750 11250
3 21375 14625
4 37000 18000
5 32625 21375
6 38250 24750

That's theoretically a huge dps increase which makes Mastery even more valuable and allows even more combinations to go to 5-6 Charges via Blast. Currently reaching 6 stacks with Blast costs 111375 mana (minus mana regen for full effect) and with that change it would cost 77625 (minus mana regen for full effect).

*still jittery*

If this turns out to be a hoax I might murder someone

HOLY CRAP!! thats insane mana cost reduction and making invocation JUST MAYBE viable

really looking foward to 5.1 now

but i do kinda agree. 1 mistake of 6stack of arcane blast = mana management screwed + loss dps for at least another 30s so good change keep them coming

[mrgreenthump]

So ye, Do I need to dish out actual maths, or will people just accept that there is no way its gonna make itself to live server... It would destroy every spec out there on single target dps

[Shangalar]

So ye, Do I need to dish out actual maths, or will people just accept that there is no way its gonna make itself to live server... It would destroy every spec out there on single target dps

Oh I know that. I also know that the PTR is a place to test random silly stuff as ideas, but maybe part of it really does go live.

[Aphrel]

they could jsut let arcane missiles not be affected by stacks, and stack up to higher stacks.. and with am being castable when running we could use that whenever we needed to move.

[skitz0129]

Arcane is already really strong anyway. The problem is that Frost and Fire are also crazy strong and edge it out. It's a fantastic time to be a PvE mage right now.

[Imnick]

they could jsut let arcane missiles not be affected by stacks, and stack up to higher stacks.. and with am being castable when running we could use that whenever we needed to move.

Arcane Missiles is our best damaging spell, why would we want it not to be affected by stacks?

[raffie]

BUff arcane blast.

[Nitros14]

Well that'll certainly put mastery above haste if that goes live.


Anyway arcane will be appealing when its damage is higher than fire and frost. That's the bottomline for 90% of players.

[zomgDPS]

So I just checked on PTR and can confirm something strange is indeed going on on the with the mana cost of AB. The spell tooltip still state 125%, but the Arcane charge debuff tooltip is at 75%. Plus, the actual mana being deducted is also at the 75% mark.

That being said.

Mana cost of Arcane Blast:

125% 75%
0 4500 4500
1 10125 7875
2 15750 11250
3 21375 14625
4 37000 18000
5 32625 21375
6 38250 24750

Please no... lets just stick with % mana values if you don't mind.


Now let us begin:
{base = base regen, which is 1% per sec}
n.b.
* Red means a net mana loss, Blue is a net mana gain.
* Haste is irrelevant, mention it and get slapped.

Mana per Cast (%mana)

	125%				75%
	base	inv	rop	icw	base	inv	rop	icw
AB0	0.500	0.500	2.500	1.800	0.500	0.500	2.500	1.800
AB1	1.375	2.375	0.625	0.075	0.625	1.625	1.375	0.675
AB2	3.250	4.250	1.250	1.950	1.750	2.750	0.250	0.450
AB3	5.125	6.125	3.125	3.825	2.875	3.875	0.875	1.575
AB4	7.000	8.000	5.000	5.700	4.000	5.000	2.000	2.700
AB5	8.875	9.875	6.875	7.575	5.125	6.125	3.125	3.825
AB6	10.750	11.750	8.750	9.450	6.250	7.250	4.250	4.950

What does all this mean?
* Compared to live, if you use Invocation, every ~3rd max stacked AB is 'free' (from a damage perspective for all of you who are all like "ZOMG OMG ARAKANZE IS BUFF NAO OMG NERF NERF"). Similarly for the other two talents.

What does that mean?
* Well, not much really. Getting a free AB ever 3 or so casts means that you have an extra chance to proc AM every 3 casts compared to now. This does not actually change anything other than the probability mechanics of a potential burn phase. Basically, it RNGifys the Arcane spec a little more.

TLDR Version

What this change allows:
* More burn: Basically, you can burn a tiny bit harder, however, given the DPM tradeoffs of fully stacked ABs, your 'burn's will still be limited to "fishing for AM procs". Even at the reduced mana, ABs top end DPM and DPS is quite pitiful. You still wont be burning Cata style, where you would burn to take advantage of AB's DPS <-> DPM exchange.


What this change does not solve:
* Arcane's "ramping" issues: Arcane is just straight up outright non-viable at anything other than a 6 stack. This change in no way alleviates that. Contrary to what Lhivera thinks, Arcane's ramping issues are mostly born out of its immobility and the fact that it only reaches its max potential every ~12+ seconds (6 stack AB needs to be rebuilt every time).
* Arcane's mobility issues: Arcane is currently getting pwned on 2 fronts. One, it has to stand still to set up its burst (the 6 stack AB ramp). Two, it has to stand still to burst (AM channel). This is contrary to the other two specs, which are mobile both in their setup and their burst. This change does not address this issue at all.
* Arcane's 'kit' issues: Arcane still does not do anything that Fire and/or Frost doesn't already do better. It still cannot burn as hard or as 'on demand' as the other two. It still doesn't bring anything else in terms of utility or uniqueness to the group.


Why this change is good:
* It is the first sign of an attempt to bring back the "Burn phase" as a core part of Arcane gameplay.


Why this change is bad:
* Adds more 'RNG' to Arcane. Mage A who gets more lucky with his 'free' AB will do significantly more DPS than Mage B who doesn't get the AM proc.


Moving forward, as a few side points, here are some equivalencies that you must consider.

a 75% Invocation AB6 mana cost (7.250) ~= a 125% Invocation AB4 mana cost (8.000)

Similarly, for ROP and Invoc

a 75% RoP AB6 (4.250) ~= a 125% RoP AB4 (5.000)
a 75% Icw AB6 (4.950) ~= a 125% Icw AB4 (5.700)


Do you notice something yet? The new "max stack" mana costs for all three talents is similar to the 'old' AB4 mana costs. Now think back to beta for just one second.

In beta, the reasoning given to increase the stack size for AB was so that "the top end mana ceiling for AB is increased". However, with this change, they have just reduced that ceiling back to almost its original values again. So what is the point of the 6 stack change now? We could just leave the mana ramp at 125% and revert the 6 stack change back to 4, hence, keeping the "good" points of this change, while making a dent in the other issues for arcane.
Namely, reducing its 'ramp' which in turn, makes it a little more mobile.

Not that even that alone would fix Arcane completely, but you get the idea.


Basically, a 75% mana ramp for Arcane negates the 6 stack change in the first place. The 6 stack change exacerbated Arcane's mobility issues as well as added the extra "ramping issues" that Arcane now has.

So the real question becomes, what is the real value of a 6 stack Arcane vs a 4 stack?

---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 09:35 AM ----------

That's a pretty massive change, can't see it making live without either being rolled back or compensated in other areas.

As I've shown, its actually not that 'massive' at all as far as DPS performance goes. You basically get the damage of an extra AB every 3 or so casts (and that's for a patchwerk fight).

You still won't be "AB spaming", however you might go "AM proc fishing" but only during dire emergencies and only effectively if you take RoP (which doesn't work in raiding anyway).



The core that is holding Arcane back, its ramp, its immobility and its lack of any form of on demand burst and/or anything else that it actually does that Fire or Frost doesn't already do better, is unaffected by this change.

[schwarzkopf]

Thanks zomg - great analysis, just like to add two big issues that the changes don't address for your consideration.

1. AM Proc rate - Arcane DPS is far more highly affected by low proc rates than fire dps is affected by low proc rates.
2. Stuns etc - Arcane DPS not only reacts poorly to movement, it also is about the only dps (maybe rogues too) that can lose so much from a 6 second stun.

The ONLY slightly worthwhile rotation I've managed to get in Arcane is the scorch rotation - the 'official' rotations assume way to much on AM procs.

Also - to answer your 'what is the point of the 6 stack' question - the point is to stop some of the PvP whinging against old Arcane's burst.