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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    You would literally never cast any other spell
    (Except possibly mage bomb)
    Well - in the mean time Scorch rotation it is

  2. #102
    Titan Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    The main problem I am having with arcane is that AM just procs so rarely, that the normal 'theory crafted' rotations just don't work.

    In experiments on dummies, I will get to 6 AB stacks with no AM procs over half the time and not getting to 2 stacks over 80% of the time, that just leaves nothing useful to cast except to just reset the stacks again and start AB again. The only way I can currently get good sustainable dps is doing the scorch rotation, which everyone says sucks.
    Strange, I thought the proc rate on AM was 40%. I could be wrong though; in any case, this could be resolved somewhat by simply upping the proc rate. I'm more concerned about the crap state of the level 90 talents and Arcane's lack of mobility. Fights in this expansion are not designed with glass cannon specs in mind.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  3. #103
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Strange, I thought the proc rate on AM was 40%. I could be wrong though; in any case, this could be resolved somewhat by simply upping the proc rate. I'm more concerned about the crap state of the level 90 talents and Arcane's lack of mobility.
    It is 40%, but in practice it feels more like 20%. And I've been playing it since MoP day1, so I know I'm not imagining things. I'm sure it levels out over time, sometimes it doesn't proc for 10 casts, sometimes it can't stop proccing, I would just prefer slightly more stability in it.

  4. #104
    Titan Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    It is 40%, but in practice it feels more like 20%. And I've been playing it since MoP day1, so I know I'm not imagining things. I'm sure it levels out over time, sometimes it doesn't proc for 10 casts, sometimes it can't stop proccing, I would just prefer slightly more stability in it.
    It is a relatively simply fix, as there are a number of ways to go about it:

    - A flat increase to the proc rate
    - Scaling proc rate for every AB that doesn't result in a proc
    - Guaranteed proc once a certain Arcane Charge level is reached

    But as I said, it is hardly the most critical issue with the Arcane spec at the moment. The level 90 talents and mobility are. Followed by our relatively crap AoE.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    It is 40%, but in practice it feels more like 20%. And I've been playing it since MoP day1, so I know I'm not imagining things. I'm sure it levels out over time, sometimes it doesn't proc for 10 casts, sometimes it can't stop proccing, I would just prefer slightly more stability in it.
    Its funny cause on beta before they fixed the slow glyph proccing, the ammount of AM's I got was really balanced, and ever since they took that away it has felt a bit lackluster..

  6. #106
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Can we then annoy everyone else on this subforum and agree that Arcane depends the most on RNG of the three mage specs?

  7. #107
    Mechagnome Proxeneta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    The emphasis being on "capable of". Theoretical dps is simulated on a Patchwerk fight. There is no such thing as a Patchwerk fight in Mists of Pandaria.
    Troll boss in MV is pretty damn close, what the fuck am I doing in the mage forum.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Can we then annoy everyone else on this subforum and agree that Arcane depends the most on RNG of the three mage specs?
    With all the backbiting and secret agendas people within the mage community have, you will be hard pressed to get anyone to agree to something like this.

    People don't even agree that Arcane is suffering! There are just too many special interests in the mage community. E.g. the massive lobby by Lhivera and a few other frostmages who have made it their goal in life to ensure that Arcane stays down in the dumps. As a point to note, even now Lhivera is actively blogging, posting, commenting everywhere in the greater mage community how he 'feels arcane is perfectly fine'. The best part is that he just 'states' that, with absolutely no proof, logic, reasoning, math or data. I doubt you can convince him and his ilk of something like "Arcane depends the most on RNG". If they are soo ready to ignore 10,000+ raid log data, they are more than ready to ignore any kind of math or data you can provide to push the point.

    Unfortunately, those lobbyists also have the loudest voices (esp now that one of them has been made an MVP). I fear that is one of the real hurdles that Arcane mages will have to face in MoP.

    In short, unlike other classes or specs that need to get changes made, Arcane is the only spec in the game that not only has to fight the devs to get changes made, but has to fight the loud anti-Arcane lobby (headed by Lhivera) within its own community. No other spec in the game must fight on two fronts to get its issues resolved. This is actually why we are in this position in the first place, since the anti-Arcane lobby was so very very strong in beta, they just overwhelmed the entire issue with their nonsense and won.




    On the topic of RNG though, know that at least I agree with you. Though not only do I think Arcane is inherently waaay to RNG-y, I will actually take the point a little further and say that its the nature of the RNG that is causing so much problems for Arcane in the first place.

    What I mean by this is that the gap between good and bad RNG for Arcane (from both a performance and 'feel' standpoint) is just too much and, even though statistically RNG evens out by its nature, the feeling that you get when you have bad RNG with Arcane outstrips anything else.

    Firstly, cycles with 2 AM procs are pretty much a requirement for Arcane to even function at a nominal potential. So you pretty much start right out the gate with a heavy RNG requirement for the spec to even work.

    Secondly, cycles where you end up not having any AM procs just feel totally broken. What makes it worse, is that the performance delta between the requirement (cycle with 2 procs) and cycles with no AM procs is just soo huge, that it compounds that feeling even worse.

    Thirdly, there is absolutely nothing you can do if you suffer from bad RNG. One of the reasons RNG even exists in RPGs is to allow the player opportunities to capitalize on good RNG and strategically plan or tactically react to bad RNG. But the problem with Arcane's RNG is that the good RNG just ends up being the requirement for the spec to even function on a basic level, so when it happens, you don't feel like you are capitalizing on anything, you just breath a sigh of relief because things are 'working'.
    Then, with the bad RNG, there is nothing you can do to recover or adapt! You cannot alter a cycle to accommodate bad RNG in any way. Its not like you can ramp up your next cycle a little harder to accommodate the DPS loss of the bad RNG from the previous cycle, since ramping (burning) is just a DPS loss for Arcane in every model under all situations.
    You cannot strategically plan around bad RNG either, say by having some other action that you can take in case bad RNG occurs. Instead, you are just forced to drop your pants and take it from behind like a champ, raw and unlubed.
    It's just not a good feeling.


    So yea. Not only does Arcane have a heavy RNG requirement, but its also the nature of the RNG that is broken.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Perhaps, though Lhivera takes 'defending blizzard' to a whole new level.

    Though in essence, you're right. There is no 'champion' for the Arcane spec in the mage community right now. Someone who can take Lhiv on one-on-one and prove him wrong. There used to be, back in early Cata. A theorycrafter called Logix.

    I really wish Logix hadn't quit WoW. He was the only theorycrafter who not only actually did the math but engaged the community too.

    I had hoped Batar would be it, but he is too weak (esp on the math front). I remember once Logix and Lhiv had an argument on the Cata beta forums, and, as usual, Lhivera was spewing random nonesense about Arcane being OP and posting wrong numbers about it (and, obviously, no one even bothered to test his math). Logix came in the next day, proved Lhiv wrong with correct math, built an entire simulator to prove him wrong and posted his findings not only on EJ but on the beta forums too. It was epic luls.
    Since then Lhiv shut up about Arcane. Until now that is.


    I mean just seriously, look at this post by him on the mage forums:


    You see what he's doing?

    He 'conveniently' forgot that in cata Arcane, the cast time of the spell reduced on every stack. Obviously, he distracts form his lack of actual basic mechanics knowledge about the spec by flooding the post with irrelevant numbers.
    What makes it better is the fact that he has also left out the fact that Arcane mages now are balanced around 6 stacks, not 4. But he wants you to think that you can just stay at 4 stacks and do competitive DPS, even when all the theorycraft proves him wrong.
    And I love the conclusion he comes up with. Everyone in their right mind who has even played the spec for 3 mins knows that "ramp up time" is one of the biggest problems of the spec. But? Due to faulty math, lack of knowledge and no one out there to call him on his bullsh!te, Lhivera says its not a problem, and retards believe him.



    Check out his other post, here


    The classic "ARCANE JUST SPAMZ AB ALL THE TIME LOL BURN PHASE 100%" argument. Any mage who ever played the spec knew that you could not "burn for long periods of time" in Cata, since you would go OOM.

    Lhivera doesn't know this, but heck, who cares? His text is green, so I guess it must be so.



    So yea, in essence you are right. We have a green text mage in our community, who not only wants to defend Blizz since "Blizz can do no wrong", but also wants to ensure that the Arcane spec remains botched for the entire expansion. All because there is no one out there to defend the spec.

    What a sad, sad series of events. The icing on the cake, is when you read Lhiv's blog, he actually sees himself as the 'savior of the mage class' and he feels he is 'doing god's work'. Its like a fundamentalist mormon republican, but in Mage form.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-07 at 04:41 PM ----------


    Oh I forgot to mention this. This is the REAL icing on the cake.

    Lhivera is a guy. He pretends to be a chic since it gives him an edge in making arguments (especially on a gaming forum). Numerous times he has been asked about his gender but he lets people believe he is a girl, since it makes arguing against him harder.

    Its pathetic really.
    Wow.

    I never really browse the official forums, but I can't believe this guy got MVP. He's clueless. Yet everyone believes every word he spews as if it's divine.

    I guess you can call that the Green Text Effect. The same happens on the support forums. half of the MVPs there are clueless to the point of having no idea how anything technical works with WoW, the extent of their knowledge is akin to Dell tech support, one step above asking people to turn the power off and back on.
    Last edited by Preston Maxtor; 2012-11-12 at 12:42 AM.

  10. #110
    Nether Tempest seems to proc Arcane Missiles more often than Arcane Blast. Anyways, Arcane Missiles proc feels too low. Arcane Explosion chance to get a charge also feels a bit low.

    I don't see the problem with arcane aoe damage, imo it's really good, and we have several options.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Preston Maxtor View Post
    Wow.

    I never really browse the official forums, but I can't believe this guy got MVP. He's clueless. Yet everyone believes every word he spews as if it's divine.

    I guess you can call that the Green Text Effect. The same happens on the support forums. half of the MVPs there are clueless to the point of having no idea how anything technical works with WoW, the extent of their knowledge is akin to Dell tech support, one step above asking people to turn the power off and back on.
    More than a few MVP's are pretty bad at advanced strategy , and theorycrafting . It's a deterrent to those forums .

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignotum View Post
    More than a few MVP's are pretty bad at advanced strategy , and theorycrafting . It's a deterrent to those forums .
    While I definitely don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about Lhivera and his anti-Arcane spec agenda and general incompetence, I do think some action should be taken against him.

    The most dangerous effect of the anti-Arcane warpath that he is on comes from the excess of misinformation he is spreading about the spec. This is deadly given his MVP status, since many new and/or unlearned mages will take his word as law just because of the green. He then proceeds to take these mages (who obviously just want to learn) and spew lies, deceit, unsubstantiated "facts", heresay and just straight out falsehoods right at them, meaning that they will end up just being frustrated with the spec.

    I actually think that is part of his goal (as well as the fact that he thinks he is just leagues above every other mage), that being, that he wants the general mage community to get frustrated with the Arcane spec even more, hence reducing the number of people who play it to the point where it becomes a dead spec. If you trace his history, you will see he has been feeling this for a long time. He blames the Arcane spec for the time that Frost was non-viable in PvE, forgetting that even though Frost was non-viable in PvE for a while, it has always been the most dominant PvP mage spec in the game.

    But for him, its just straight up revenge as well as his own desire to be lauded as the best mage.


    I really think it is in the entire community's interest to start proceedings to get him stripped of his MVP status. The sheer amount of misinformation he is spreading is quickly reaching critical mass and must be stopped at all costs.

    No other MVP in the history of the game has been this disruptive as far as the development of class is concerned. In fact, most other MVP's openly state that they have no idea about class mechanics and just stay out of most discussions. Lhivera however, will try to force himself into discussions for which he obviously doesn't even have the most basic knowledge (e.g. the discussions I linked in my previous post(s) ).

    That is the dangerous part.


    Edit: Just some proof as to what I mean.

    Take a look at this exchange between Lhivera and Aowyn (Aowyn is probably one of the last few remaining true Arcane mages still left playing).

    Link to post

    I wont quote the whole thing here, but I'll give you the jist.

    As you can see, Lhivera is (as usual) spewing some bullsh!te about "What the devs want for Arcane". Basically, he is outright lying about what the devs want (in this case, he says that the devs specifically designed Arcane so it wouldn't burn anymore).

    Aowyn comes in and gives actual proof from a blue post which says the complete opposite of what Lhivera is saying, and what is Lhivera's response? He just straight up ignores Aowyn's post, the proof and everything else and just continues on spewing the exact same bullsh!te.

    Obviously, Aowyn (as well as the blue post he linked) gets drowned out by Lhivera's green text.


    This is waay to dangerous to let continue.
    Last edited by zomgDPS; 2012-11-12 at 04:25 AM.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  13. #113
    The Patient Emberess's Avatar
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    wow ZomgDPS your passion for arcane is contagious , i also really liked the spec , but if it cant adapt to many fights and still retain its flavour (burn , neutral , renew) then its gonna lose people , you right in calling out guys that do not understand its inner workings , just a question what would you do to the spec to get it back in action / besides also scrapping the 90 talents that is

    Heres my suggestions from front page (convenietly lost in time :P) :

    can cast Missiles while moving, adding the cast time reduction to ABlasts back into the charge things like cata (-0.1sec per charge) , thats all i can think of
    also give each charge a 10% bonus chance to proc missiles , so when you at 5/6 charges your next spell will almost always proc missiles

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Emberess View Post
    just a question what would you do to the spec to get it back in action
    I'm working on answering this very question right now. I am waiting on a friend to finish the math proofs. I have managed to get some of the legends of Arcane theorycrafting to help me answer the question. (Though I am still trying to convince them to come back to the game).

    However, I do like to take a more systematic approach. Before we can even figure out the fixes, we first need to be able to articulate exactly what is wrong. That is the post that I am compiling right now. When its done, I will post it here.

    Soon.



    For now, I can help discuss topics as they come up, like the discussion on RNG we just had (by the end, I was able to articulate exactly what is wrong with the RNG in Arcane). So you guys need to keep the ideas rolling while I gain more inspiration as well as take the time out to write a good, constructive post about the whole deal.


    As a side note, part of the problem right now with fixing Arcane is that we have shoehorned ourselves into its current broken state. Fixing Arcane would be a relatively easier task if we were doing it back in the beta, where big redesigns could take place. Right now though, it will be tough since we cannot hope that any big sweeping changes can be made to the spec. This is where the difficulty of finding solutions lie. In the fact that we are trying to fix the spec with both hands tied behind our backs. Essentially, we now are tasked with finding solutions that will solve the problem but with minimal actual change. It is tough to work under those constraints, however, I have a small set of elegant solutions that might actually fit the bill. As I said, I'm just waiting on the math of them to be done so I can present my findings with a bit more backup.

    If only people had listened back in the beta, this would have been a much easier process


    And yea.. if Lhivera is listening, I want him to know that I do blame him, personally.
    If he hadn't flooded every beta discussion about how he wanted to have a Arcane/Fire/Frost option for every tier of the talents and how that is the most important issue, or if how the water elemental targeting freeze issue was the biggest problem for mages or if he hadn't basically spammed the forums about how Arcane is fine and "its just beta", the Arcane spec wouldn't be suffering in the state that it is right now.

    Let it be a lesson to us all.
    Last edited by zomgDPS; 2012-11-12 at 10:48 PM.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  15. #115
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Well I do think that I've come up with a nifty solution for most of our pve problems. Might be an issue for pvp but not necessarily. Now, there are three things to consider before reading the suggestion:

    1. I am not in the 'we want the burst phase back' team.
    2. I'm looking for a solution to faster recover from our lack of mobility, not to be able to dps while moving.
    3. I like our Mastery a lot.

    Suggestion:
    Draw Power - draw power from the nether realm, gaining 1 Arcane Charge per stack of Draw Power. Max 6 stacks. One stack is gained every 10 seconds. If used at 5 or 6 stacks, also generates one charge of Arcane Missiles. Cannot be used while Arcane Power is active because the sheer energy would destroy the mage.

    So this is basically an 'outbreak' type spell that's active all the time - when you use the spell it gets reset to 0 stacks and generates 1 stack every 10 seconds, allowing you 'take' as many stacks from it as you need based on it's current amount of stacks. So theoretically you could go from 0 to 6 Arcane Charges instantly every 60 seconds or for 2 charges every 20 seconds or any combination. For phases with high mobility when our Charges drop for stupid reasons, we can use this to help restore our dps as fast as possible. It also opens up a lot of combinations to handle our mastery, allowing more active mana management.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2012-11-17 at 03:08 AM. Reason: typos

  16. #116
    The Patient Emberess's Avatar
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    sounds really interesting, is it a cast or instant spell? how it looks to me is that the spell will generate and store charges until we need to use it? so the benefit of some good charges without the insane mana costs?

    one thing that was also on my mind , was that arcane is rooted by its proc, while fire and frost arnt, what if they reduce the damage from missiles and allow it to be cast while moving? then shift some of that damage back to ABlast, that way we can save up charges for more movement intesive fights , in combination with flows, i know floes does almost the same thing but its cd is not really appealing

  17. #117
    High Overlord
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    imo, Arcane was just fine in Cata.. I liked it for it's simplicity. Turned me off the spec entirely when they added a dot and the arcane charges to it =/

    OT: so I guess what i'm saying is.. revert it back! :P

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Squaddles View Post
    imo, Arcane was just fine in Cata.. I liked it for it's simplicity. Turned me off the spec entirely when they added a dot and the arcane charges to it =/

    OT: so I guess what i'm saying is.. revert it back! :P
    Mm.. arcane was a nice spec before DS, in DS it became the who can spam AB the most and on targets with biggest damage taken debuff competition.. but that was cause of gear.. you just didnt really run out of mana as an arcane with SoW and full t13..

  19. #119
    Arcane blast needs to be a GIANT FUCKING LASER BEAM!!!! Arcane also needs a black hole spell since it is spacetime magic. I would also like to have a slow time spell or real mirror image that copies your spells as you do them and dose 100% of your damage.

  20. #120
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emberess View Post
    sounds really interesting, is it a cast or instant spell? how it looks to me is that the spell will generate and store charges until we need to use it? so the benefit of some good charges without the insane mana costs?

    one thing that was also on my mind , was that arcane is rooted by its proc, while fire and frost arnt, what if they reduce the damage from missiles and allow it to be cast while moving? then shift some of that damage back to ABlast, that way we can save up charges for more movement intesive fights , in combination with flows, i know floes does almost the same thing but its cd is not really appealing
    Yes, the spell would do exactly as you said plus it would be off the global cooldown making it potentiall attractive even for one stack

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