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  1. #1

    Frost DK - DW vs 2H help

    I've recently dinged 90 on my DK and was planning on going Frost. However, I haven't got any real answer on my question, hence this thread. I know, or I think I know, that 2h Frost DKs are ahead of DW atm. Or that's what I've been told and seen. But since I utterly hate 2H frost dk compared to DW, I would like to know how far behind DW actually are. The reason why I'm asking this is because me and my friends are taking on PVE once again, and we would like to progress as smooth as possible, and if DW really is that far behind (I'm talking 10-20k behind), that will make things harder.

    So, to summarize, how far behind is DW compared to 2H, Both pre-raid bis-gear and bis-gear?

    And please, I have checked simulationcraft and I know it says they are really close. But I know better than trusting simulationcraft to a 100%...

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    DW is a few percent behind in theoretical single target damage, but as very few fights are pure single target fights DW usually pulls ahead due to the extra splash damage (you use Howling Blast instead of Obliterate as DW), thus DW is usually better in a raid setting given that you can find the weapons for it.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Un0 View Post
    DW is a few percent behind in theoretical single target damage, but as very few fights are pure single target fights DW usually pulls ahead due to the extra splash damage (you use Howling Blast instead of Obliterate as DW), thus DW is usually better in a raid setting given that you can find the weapons for it.
    2H is NOT ahead single target, DW is. 2H was thought to be at the beginning of the expansion but that was due to faulty sims. The sims have since been fixed and DW is ahead by a few percent single target and light years ahead as soon as there's more than one target. It also performs quite a bit better in real world scenarios than 2H does due to the fact that RNG can't hurt it as much as it can hurt 2H since using KM on Oblit as DW is no where near as bad as using it on Frost Strike as 2H.

  4. #4
    Thanks for the answers!

    But the thing is, almost every single Frost dk on worldoflogs is 2H. However, I gave that a thought, and I came to the conclusion that that may depend on the fact that everyone of them had heroic Star...something (the 2H from Elegon). And I guess it's alot harder to get your hands on 2 of those 1handers. But I've been DW since I created the DK, and I won't give up on it know

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysfaktor View Post
    Thanks for the answers!

    But the thing is, almost every single Frost dk on worldoflogs is 2H. However, I gave that a thought, and I came to the conclusion that that may depend on the fact that everyone of them had heroic Star...something (the 2H from Elegon). And I guess it's alot harder to get your hands on 2 of those 1handers. But I've been DW since I created the DK, and I won't give up on it know
    Blood tap DW spec is much further ahead then 2h, although it takes some getting used to playing since you have to get used to it's big priority list. 2H has a lot of ranks because not many people play DW due to the skill difference between the 2 specs.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by hasslehoof View Post
    Blood tap DW spec is much further ahead then 2h, although it takes some getting used to playing since you have to get used to it's big priority list. 2H has a lot of ranks because not many people play DW due to the skill difference between the 2 specs.
    That's not true actually... the logs are mostly 2H for 2 reasons, neither of which being the skill required. First is because of what I said above, 2H was thought to be the top spec at first and many guides and such have not been changed yet so many people are still operating under that assumption. Second is the fact that the specs are close enough that which ever you have better weapons for will perform better and you are much more likely to get a single 2H weapon faster than 2 1H weapons.

    As far as skill goes, DW is actually the easier spec to play IF you're playing 2H correctly, monitoring swing timers to prevent wasting KM procs and such is much more complex than anything you have to worry about as DW. Problem is most people who play 2H frost don't monitor swing timers at all so it feels easier to them.

  7. #7
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    In relation to this argument,I mostly play PvP on my DK and I'm using 2h. So I've heard that monitoring swingtimers are crucial for max out put in PvE,so I recon it would be great for PvP too. Anyone know a good Swingtimer addon? Been trying to find one,but getting jackall all the time.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Noitatohtori View Post
    In relation to this argument,I mostly play PvP on my DK and I'm using 2h. So I've heard that monitoring swingtimers are crucial for max out put in PvE,so I recon it would be great for PvP too. Anyone know a good Swingtimer addon? Been trying to find one,but getting jackall all the time.
    I'm using Quartz. Also shows latency while casting, GCD and other nifty things.
    Can't link it - longtime lurker, new poster - but you can find it on Curse.

  9. #9
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    Nice,tyvm! Never thought Quartz would have it

  10. #10
    how is dw rng tho?

  11. #11
    i use dw as tsg right now and we hit 2.2k in 2 more games top team in bgs is 2.4k 2th team 2.3k

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Junichi View Post
    how is dw rng tho?
    DW suffers FAR less from bad RNG than 2H due to the fact that hitting an Obliterate with KM is not a real DPS loss for DW while hitting a Frost Strike with KM as 2H is a significant DPS loss in most situations.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hasslehoof View Post
    Blood tap DW spec is much further ahead then 2h, although it takes some getting used to playing since you have to get used to it's big priority list. 2H has a lot of ranks because not many people play DW due to the skill difference between the 2 specs.
    Blood Tap? What.
    "much further ahead" < actually wrong


    The difference between dw and 2h is 1-2~%
    Blood Tap and Runic Empowerment seem to be on par, maybe 0.x-0.0x% difference.
    Play what you want to play unless you are in a hardcore progression guild.

    Even @ Frost DW there is a difference between blood tap and RE stat priority, atleast it looks like there is one, judging by the sims.
    Problem with BT is, you cant handle it, you will fuck it up and it will be more of a dps loss than it would benefit you.
    Anyway I would like to get an explanation why blood tap dw is "much" further ahead.
    Vaenquasum 16:50:34
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  14. #14
    I love all this recent "watch your swing timer" talk coming out on the forums lately like it's the most impactful thing since sliced bread. KM is pretty damn hard proc to "waste", you do what you always did....hit abilities as they come off cool down and score more or less the same DPS as if you tried to manage your KM procs. Same goes for this BT spec stuff.

    Get a grip guys, your not a sim. Hit your buttons and don't stand in the fire, that's raiding at it's core. By all means if you can do that then sweat the small stuff but the difference between you and the guys on WoL isn't perfect micromanagement it's the fact they are raiding in guilds that are for the most part better than ours. DPS strategies are better, overall Raid DPS is better, execution is better, bosses die quicker and they rarely piss around doing stuff that isn't "optimal" for melee DPS.

    Don't get me wrong, we should all be striving to be better players but peoples inability to actually interpret data and apply it to themselves properly is shocking. Stop thinking in absolutes and start thinking about how you as a player actually play your class.

  15. #15
    The Patient Magdalena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitalizm View Post
    Blood Tap? What.
    "much further ahead" < actually wrong


    The difference between dw and 2h is 1-2~%
    Blood Tap and Runic Empowerment seem to be on par, maybe 0.x-0.0x% difference.
    Play what you want to play unless you are in a hardcore progression guild.

    Even @ Frost DW there is a difference between blood tap and RE stat priority, atleast it looks like there is one, judging by the sims.
    Problem with BT is, you cant handle it, you will fuck it up and it will be more of a dps loss than it would benefit you.
    Anyway I would like to get an explanation why blood tap dw is "much" further ahead.
    Blood Tap and Runic Empowerment are not on par for DW Frost whatsoever.
    Blood Tap pulls far ahead of Runic Empowerment.

    The initial reason behind confusion about this was because the Simcraft ability order for Blood Tap placed it on a far lower priority than it should have been. When this was corrected, Blood Tap began pulling much further ahead than had been previously suspected.
    You can read the entire discussion about how this took place and why it's proven BT as the superior rune regen resource for DW over at Elitist Jerks, starting at Page 4.

    Furthermore, the majority of players can simply avoid having to hit a separate button for Blood Tap by macroing it into their RP dump (in this case, Frost Strike). It's not optimal DPS if you can play 100% perfectly, but then- not many people can.
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  16. #16
    Switched to BT, set the priority of BT higher, but below Frost Strike and got 2k DPS less.
    But then, I am 2h Frost and the more haste you have, the better RE is, isn't it? (+ my FS priority as 2h isn't that high )
    Will give it a try asap, if I get my hands on some nice 1hands, but thanks, will follow the ej discussion a bit more, lacked in the past a bit.
    Vaenquasum 16:50:34
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by digitalizm View Post
    Switched to BT, set the priority of BT higher, but below Frost Strike and got 2k DPS less.
    But then, I am 2h Frost and the more haste you have, the better RE is, isn't it? (+ my FS priority as 2h isn't that high )
    Will give it a try asap, if I get my hands on some nice 1hands, but thanks, will follow the ej discussion a bit more, lacked in the past a bit.
    Use this macro and you will never need to press BT and you will never fail:

    #showtooltip
    /cast Frost Strike
    /cast Blood Tap

    Blood Tap will not trigger unless you have 5 or stacks AND if you have an other rune on cooldown for it to replace.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome Wolfbear's Avatar
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    Just play whichever you want, they are pretty close as it is.

  19. #19
    Moderator Fnx-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junichi View Post
    how is dw rng tho?
    Nothing compare to 2H It's harder so play as well if you want to master it, witch will require you to NOT macro BT into everything, but use it manually.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 05:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenocyrst View Post
    Use this macro and you will never need to press BT and you will never fail:

    #showtooltip
    /cast Frost Strike
    /cast Blood Tap

    Blood Tap will not trigger unless you have 5 or stacks AND if you have an other rune on cooldown for it to replace.
    But the reward using blood tab is so much higher, if you can manage.

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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnx- View Post
    Nothing compare to 2H It's harder so play as well if you want to master it, witch will require you to NOT macro BT into everything, but use it manually.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 05:32 PM ----------



    But the reward using blood tab is so much higher, if you can manage.
    That's actually not true at all... Blood Tap macro'd to FS and Blood Tap managed correctly is an EXTREMELY small difference.

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