Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
6
... LastLast
  1. #61
    In a nutshell, he went from a sophisticated ruler to a barbarous bigot to a paragon of justice and level-headedness. And he's enhanced by Goldrinn.

    I don't personally hate him despite agreeing this isn't exactly good character development. All of WoW's major characters are corny in at least one way, Varian at least fulfills his role.
    Last edited by Zuben; 2012-11-08 at 09:53 AM.

  2. #62
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    The Alliance battles the Horde, because they see a threat in them.
    The Horde battles the Alliance for land and resources.
    If you look over the lore, this is not true at all. Over the course of history, the Alliance are by no stretch of the imagination always the innocent party defending themselves. They have had their fair share in atrocities without provocation just as much as the Horde have.

    OT anyway: I've never played an Alliance character to get a full idea of what Varian is like in-game, but from a Horde perspective he just seems like a carbon copy of Garrosh in his current form. Though from what people have said, his character has matured and grown up beyond the racist, bone-idle bigot he appeared throughout Wrath. Hopefully, this will carry on but retaining some of his integrity in his opposition to the Horde.

  3. #63
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanaSlave View Post
    If you look over the lore, this is not true at all. Over the course of history, the Alliance are by no stretch of the imagination always the innocent party defending themselves. They have had their fair share in atrocities without provocation just as much as the Horde have.
    Give an example. When was the last time the Alliance dropped a mana bomb on a Horde city.

  4. #64
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    5,262
    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanaSlave View Post
    OT anyway: I've never played an Alliance character to get a full idea of what Varian is like in-game, but from a Horde perspective he just seems like a carbon copy of Garrosh in his current form. Though from what people have said, his character has matured and grown up beyond the racist, bone-idle bigot he appeared throughout Wrath. Hopefully, this will carry on but retaining some of his integrity in his opposition to the Horde.
    Currently he's pretty much the opposite of Garrosh, he shares far more on common with Thrall now.
    Prior to Wolfheart I would've called him a mix Thrall and Garrosh for comparisons sake, he very much did care for the well being of his people in a nice way and those of his allies of whom he always saw as his equals just like Thrall, but like Garrosh he didn't shy from wanting a fight however unlike Garrosh Varian was never an instigator and was reacting when he made judgements of War eg.Bolvar's death at the hands of Forsaken.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-11-08 at 10:28 AM.

  5. #65
    Mechagnome
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Cuthroat Alley, Stormwind
    Posts
    742
    http://us.media.blizzard.com/blizzar...1-3-winner.jpg

    Idk about the rest of you. But I don't like my tax dollars going into things like this.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  6. #66
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    5,262
    Quote Originally Posted by Lostwood View Post
    The vast majority seems to like the character.

    What annoys me is his stupid ponytail and the lack of manly beard.

    Edit:
    The Alliance need more beards. Practically all Human Kings of the 7 Kingdoms had beards. It would also make him seem like boss that was Lothar.

  7. #67
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Give an example. When was the last time the Alliance dropped a mana bomb on a Horde city.
    Atrocities are relative. One of your humans was corrupted and wiped out half the known world with the Scourge.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 11:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Currently he's pretty much the opposite of Garrosh, he shares far more on common with Thrall now.
    Prior to Wolfheart I would've called him a mix Thrall and Garrosh for comparisons sake, he very much did care for the well being of his people in a nice way and those of his allies of whom he always saw as his equals just like Thrall, but like Garrosh he didn't shy from wanting a fight however unlike Garrosh Varian was never an instigator and was reacting when he made judgements of War eg.Bolvar's death at the hands of Forsaken.
    Apologies, that statement was a little ambiguous. I meant "Garrosh in his current form" as opposed to "Varian in his current form". I'm only going on my first hand experiences, but I'm willing to take on board other people's point of view who say he is quite different to Garrosh now. Long may it continue. This game can only take so many idiotic leaders at a time.

  8. #68
    Deleted
    I hated him because he was kinda like Garrosh is now. Unreasonable, filled with hatred towards the opposite faction etc. But now he is changed, and I'm starting to like this character.

  9. #69
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanaSlave View Post
    Atrocities are relative. One of your humans was corrupted and wiped out half the known world with the Scourge.
    Arthas became a villain. The Alliance stood against his actions and played a part in his downfall.

  10. #70
    I think the development in 5.1 is amazing and really brings Variann forward as a true King of Stormwind. I won't detail as not to spoil it for those who haven't peaked but it's really just fantastic and I'm looking forward to it. It's been too long.

  11. #71
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Arthas became a villain. The Alliance stood against his actions and played a part in his downfall.
    Sounds just like what is happening with Garrosh now doesn't it. So going back to your original point of the differences between the Horde and Alliance, now that I've given a good example of how they are actually the same, what exactly are you trying to argue?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanaSlave View Post
    Atrocities are relative. One of your humans was corrupted and wiped out half the known world with the Scourge.
    A human did, yes; but Lordaeron isn't part of Wrynn's Alliance.

    We're arguing Horde vs. Alliance, not someone who happens to be the same race as one of the races who is in the Alliance vs. their own kingdom.

    To clarify, we're talking about WoW's Alliance, not Warcraft 3's Alliance.

    So, no. You didn't actually give a good example of how they are the same. Your example was, in reality, piss poor. Wanna try again?


    @OP: The reason people don't like Varian, whether they like to admit it or not, is because once upon a time there was an expansion called Wrath of the Lich King. In this expansion, Thrall was a pretty cool guy. He had a little orc follow him around named "Garrosh" and Garrosh was a major cocksucker.

    SO. Whenever Garrosh would open his cocksucker mouth and say something stupid, and contrary to everything Thrall had been working to achieve, Varian would answer back.

    People took this defiance that Varian portrayed as a slight against Thrall, and his New Horde.

    Turns out, Garrosh really was a massive dickbag and Varian was right in his animosity all along, but people still don't like Varian for w/e reason.
    Last edited by Boogums; 2012-11-08 at 11:54 AM.

  13. #73
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Broloth View Post
    A human did, yes; but Lordaeron wasn't part of today's Alliance.

    We're arguing Horde vs. Alliance, not someone who happens to be the same race as one of the races who is in the Alliance vs. their own kingdom.

    To clarify, we're talking about WoW's Alliance, not Warcraft 3's Alliance.

    So, no. You didn't actually give a good example of how they are the same. Your example was, in reality, piss poor. Wanna try again?
    You are arguing technicalities. I could just as easily say that Garrosh does not represent the Horde as a whole when he decided to bomb Theramore (being as nobody else but him sanctioned it) but people are quick to say "The Horde" attacked an Alliance city. But when presented with "The human Arthas destroyed half of Azeroth with the Scourge", we're not allowed to blame the Alliance, even though the humans became part of the Alliance (and even before then was the dominant race in terms of territory and population). It's double standards from you, that's all there is to it.

    So you wanted another example, I'll give you one. Care to excuse Garithos's actions then? Or how about Blackmoore?

    OT: let's not let this get off topic with digressions.
    Last edited by mmoca371911425; 2012-11-08 at 11:58 AM.

  14. #74
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanaSlave View Post
    Sounds just like what is happening with Garrosh now doesn't it. So going back to your original point of the differences between the Horde and Alliance, now that I've given a good example of how they are actually the same, what exactly are you trying to argue?
    The situation is not at all the same. The Alliance didn't ride into battle alongside Arthas and spread the Scourge for him. They opposed him long before he became the Lich King. Baine and Vol'jin might not be ok with what Garrosh is doing, but they still fight for him.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 12:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanaSlave View Post
    You are arguing technicalities. I could just as easily say that Garrosh does not represent the Horde as a whole when he decided to bomb Theramore (being as nobody else but him sanctioned it) but people are quick to say "The Horde" attacked an Alliance city. But when presented with "The human Arthas destroyed half of Azeroth with the Scourge", we're not allowed to blame the Alliance, even though the humans became part of the Alliance (and even before then was the dominant race in terms of territory and population). It's double standards, that's all there is to it.

    So you wanted another example, I'll give you one. Care to excuse Garithos's actions then?
    Garithos, the one guy everyone points to when they want to show how the Alliance is just a bunch of douches. Garithos was a racist idiot, but what he did doesn't compare to what Garrosh is doing.

  15. #75
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    The situation is not at all the same. The Alliance didn't ride into battle alongside Arthas and spread the Scourge for him. They opposed him long before he became the Lich King. Baine and Vol'jin might not be ok with what Garrosh is doing, but they still fight for him.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 12:56 PM ----------



    Garithos, the one guy everyone points to when they want to show how the Alliance is just a bunch of douches. Garithos was a racist idiot, but what he did doesn't compare to what Garrosh is doing.
    So Arthas didn't have an Alliance army with him in Lorderon that followed him to Northrend?

    Arthas was not opposed by the alliance he was a part of it as was evident by Muradin joining up with him in Northrend, it was not a seperate organisation it was an alliance between Humanity, Elves and Dwarves, Lorderon just stopped being the leader of the alliance when it was destroyed.

    Arthas, Garithos, and Garrosh are not all "just one guy" they commanded armies who had to follow their orders. Arthas would never have done what he did without help from alliance men, the same is true of Garithos, Garrosh likewise has his own armies in us players as troops and as much as we dislike him Horde players do not have a choice but to follow orders due to game mechanics.

    On paper there is no difference between them, all 3 were massive morons who commanded armies, the difference with Garrosh is Horde players are forced to partake in it as a storytelling device.

  16. #76
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    The situation is not at all the same. The Alliance didn't ride into battle alongside Arthas and spread the Scourge for him. They opposed him long before he became the Lich King. Baine and Vol'jin might not be ok with what Garrosh is doing, but they still fight for him.
    The situation is actually very similar and in both cases the responsible party, be it Arthas or Garrosh, does not represent the views of his entire faction. Arthas was mentally weak and susceptible to a lust for vengeance for Stratholme, which ultimately lead to his corruption. He destroyed his own fleet against his father's orders to pursue Mal'Ganis to Northrend. Similarly, Garrosh as we all know, rules with an iron fist and leads through fear. You can say that Bain and Vol'jin "might not be ok with what Garrosh is doing, but they still fight for him" but that is entirely through fear and nothing to do with respect and friendship. You can add Sylvanas, Saurfang, Lor'themar, and now Thrall to that list. So if you compare the two example, they are very similar. The other races and leaders of the Horde are no more with Garrosh than the Alliance were with Arthas when he ran off to Northrend. In neither case are these parties sanctioning what their respective leaders are doing - Bronzebeard, Terenas, Jaina to name a few, all voiced their opinion against Arthas's actions but he did it anyway. Saurfang, Sylvanas, and Vol'jin have all expressed their opinions of Garrosh to his face and warned him of the consequences of his actions but he still went and bombed Theramore and attacked them at Pandaria. They do not "fight for him" under the banner of a true and honest alliance, but only through a marriage of convenience and fear for their own people if they rebel. It is important to be wary of that difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Garithos, the one guy everyone points to when they want to show how the Alliance is just a bunch of douches. Garithos was a racist idiot, but what he did doesn't compare to what Garrosh is doing.
    There are plenty more examples of the Alliance's dark side - Blackmoore and Fandral Staghelm to name a couple - but that is not the point. I could just as easily argue that Garrosh is the "the one guy everyone points to when they want to show how the Horde is just a bunch of douches" but that would be both petty and incorrect, for reasons I've just explained above. It goes back to my point earlier that I was making, that atrocities, war crimes or whatever, are relative. I think any level-headed debater would not argue for the moral differences between a grand marshal sanctioning an act of genocide on the Blood Elves or a warcheif bombing an Alliance city without provocation, killing hundreds if not thousands. Either way, they are both despicable acts and that is the ultimate point, which is that over the course of history it is no way true to argue that the Alliance plays the defensive role and the Horde the provocative or aggressive role. Both faction's hands are just as bloody as the others and both faction's have had their rebels in charge which do not represent the majority. If you start splitting hairs with regards to this it only comes across as bias, which basically kills off any chance of sensible and rational debate, and obviously we do not want that.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanaSlave View Post
    You are arguing technicalities. I could just as easily say that Garrosh does not represent the Horde as a whole when he decided to bomb Theramore (being as nobody else but him sanctioned it) but people are quick to say "The Horde" attacked an Alliance city. But when presented with "The human Arthas destroyed half of Azeroth with the Scourge", we're not allowed to blame the Alliance, even though the humans became part of the Alliance (and even before then was the dominant race in terms of territory and population). It's double standards from you, that's all there is to it.

    So you wanted another example, I'll give you one. Care to excuse Garithos's actions then? Or how about Blackmoore?

    OT: let's not let this get off topic with digressions.
    No, I'm not arguing technicalities. Garrosh is a member of the Horde. He's the leader of the Horde. Arthas is not, and was not ever part of the Alliance. He was part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, sure, but that's not who we're talking about. If you REALLY wanna use past groupings, then the Horde aren't going to come out on top. You have Gul'dan, Nerzhul, Magtheridon, the Burning Legion. All of a sudden the Alliance look A LOT more righteous when compared to the horde.

    The human, Arthas, that destroyed half of Azeroth with the Scourge was not PART of the Alliance. So you can't blame the Alliance. Just like we don't blame the Horde for killing Thrall's parents.

    It's no double standard. Now, if Arthas had been part of the Alliance, had he been the leader of the Alliance and he went all Lich King on everyone, and then the rest of the Alliance went and continued following him, then you'd have a decent analogy; but he wasn't.

    Garithos? Blackmoore? NOT PART OF THE GODAMN ALLIANCE. LORDAEREONS DON'T FUCKING COUNT, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT PART OF THE ALLIANCE. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WRYNN AND GARROSH. THE ALLIANCE AND THE HORDE. NOT THE ALLLIANCE OF LORDAERON VS. THE BURNING LEGION.

    So give me an actual example, of when a member (or preferably, a leader) of THE ALLIANCE (remember, we're talking about WoW, not WC3, they are two DIFFERENT FACTIONS) did anything as atrocious as Garrosh.

  18. #78
    I am Murloc! Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Basking in the Light
    Posts
    5,198
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    The Alliance need more beards. Practically all Human Kings of the 7 Kingdoms had beards. It would also make him seem like boss that was Lothar.
    Meanwhile, leaders of countries tend to not have beards. Something about the loss of honesty hiding behind them and they are unclean. A hermit wears a beard. A drunken Dwarf wears a beard.

    I would prefer my king to show his face and be proud of his battle scars (which is probably why Varian in this game of uncleaniness doesn't wear a beard, as folks won't notice that scar).

    Beards are something to collect soup in, attract flies and rat nests, it's unfitting for a noble facing his ultimate enemies wearing his dinner and bed.
    Last edited by Kevyne-Shandris; 2012-11-08 at 12:51 PM.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes.
    They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."


  19. #79
    If I remember correct Nindorei asked you when did the Alliance attacked the Horde to take lands from them and you provided him with two answers completely out of topic.

    I shal give you a very good answer taken straight from the developers themselves so it can finally settle the matter. The Developers themselves admitted that the Alliance was always the defender on Azeroth. The Horde usually was the one to attack. In case you want some history lessons in order to be more clear allow me to tell you.

    Pro Warcraft 1: Orcs on bloodlust from the Burning Legion sent to destroy the Draenei Race. Fortunately some of the Draenei lived and
    escaped.
    Warcraft 1: The Orcs sent from the Burning Legion open the Dark Portal and invade Azeroth intent of killing everyone.
    Warcraft 2: After they almost wipe Stormwind they attack Lordaeron and the Alliance is formed. At the same time the trolls forge an
    alliance with the Orcs in order to destroy their Elven Enemies. They turn against the Red Dragonflight also and this hate
    stands until today. They are put in camps costing resources and food instead of being executed on the spot so yes there
    wouldn't be an Orcish Horde today (just to clarify to those who may say that it was horrible to put them on camps
    forgetting that the Orcs deserved death for what they have done)
    Warcraft 3: Grom Hellscream attacks the survivors from Lordaeron in Kalimdor on sight. He then decides to attack the other human
    bases there.
    Vanilla Warcraft: Even though there was a peace treaty between the Horde and the Alliance the Warsong Clan wages war on Ashenvale
    for wood disobeying Thrall. In Arathi we see the Forsaken doing some operations to gain lands not to mention they
    are preparing a copy of the Scourge Plague. In Alterac we see the Frostwolves attacking the Dwarven Expedition that
    went there to excavate for Archeological items without even negotiating first.
    Wrath of the Lich King: Do I need to mention the Wrathgate? Do I need to mention the Broken Front? Or Garrosh's Actions?
    Between Wrath and Cataclysm: The Peace Summit where Garrosh was offered resources and wanted to take them by force. Where
    Prince Anduin humiliated Garrosh's way of thinking? Or the attack on that defenceless Alliance ship and
    the killing of all it's crew but one?
    Cataclysm: Confirmed by Wrathion now for all the Garrosh fangirls to see. He used the Cataclysm to gain lands while Varian did not.
    Sylvannas now wanting lands outside of Lordaeron and attacking Neutral Kingdoms. The Bomb on Stonetalon against a
    Neutral Faction. The Attack on Ashenvale. The Attack on Tol Barad. The Twilight Highlands
    storyline from the moment he arrives until he sends the Dragonmaw to attack the Wildhammer who were recovering from
    the Cataclysm.
    Mists of Pandaria: The Attack on Theramore. The fact that he used the Cataclysm that destroyed Darkshore to send a fleet to try and
    blockade Darnassus. That he used the Neutrality of Dalaran to his own needs. The fact that his goal is to conquer
    Azeroth. Or the fact that he wants Pandaria for resources even though he doesnt belong them or Azeroth generally.

    The only two cases where the Alliance attacked the Horde was in Ashenvale when Grom went there to hack half the forest to make a base and the second one was when Kul Tiras came to Kalimdor to finish the Horde now that they were weakened.

    So we have like 2 times when the Alliance attacked the Horde and like a bazzilion of times of the Horde attacking the Alliance. So I hope after that all those fanatic fanboys will start talking with real facts and not facts from their imagination.

    Some more clarifications for the Slave of Sylvanas. We are talking about who has done more damage to the other. Blackmoore used the Orcs to damage the Alliance and not the Horde. Arthas turned against the Alliance not the Horde. If you want serious discussion please provide us some serious feedback and not things out of your imagination. I repeat in case you need to understand we are talking about who was always on the Attack and who's on Defence.
    Last edited by Darth-Piekus; 2012-11-08 at 01:04 PM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Broloth View Post
    No, I'm not arguing technicalities. Garrosh is a member of the Horde. He's the leader of the Horde. Arthas is not, and was not ever part of the Alliance. He was part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, sure, but that's not who we're talking about. If you REALLY wanna use past groupings, then the Horde aren't going to come out on top. You have Gul'dan, Nerzhul, Magtheridon, the Burning Legion. All of a sudden the Alliance look A LOT more righteous when compared to the horde.

    The human, Arthas, that destroyed half of Azeroth with the Scourge was not PART of the Alliance. So you can't blame the Alliance. Just like we don't blame the Horde for killing Thrall's parents.

    It's no double standard. Now, if Arthas had been part of the Alliance, had he been the leader of the Alliance and he went all Lich King on everyone, and then the rest of the Alliance went and continued following him, then you'd have a decent analogy; but he wasn't.

    Garithos? Blackmoore? NOT PART OF THE GODAMN ALLIANCE. LORDAEREONS DON'T FUCKING COUNT, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT PART OF THE ALLIANCE. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WRYNN AND GARROSH. THE ALLIANCE AND THE HORDE. NOT THE ALLLIANCE OF LORDAERON VS. THE BURNING LEGION.

    So give me an actual example, of when a member (or preferably, a leader) of THE ALLIANCE (remember, we're talking about WoW, not WC3, they are two DIFFERENT FACTIONS) did anything as atrocious as Garrosh.
    Your argument is weak in this regard: Wrynn's Alliance remembers Alliance of Lordaeron fondly and goes by the same ideals. Stormwind was practically crashing in Lordaeron during the Second War. Varian even says something to the effect "Look what they have done to our city" during Battle of the Undercity in Wrath. Arguing the Lordaeron of the past has no meaningful connection to present day Alliance is, as SylvanaSlave said, a technicality.

    Having said that, I don't personally believe Arthas is that good a comparison here. The soldiers following him to Northrend wanted vengeance too, just not as fiercely, and first and foremost they were following their prince's orders; once the ambassador informed them the king orders them to return, they obliged, which is why Arthas burned the ships. Muradin was on a quest of his own and felt tagging along with Arthas would benefit them both, being friends and all; he didn't know about the changes Arthas was going through till it was too late. When Arthas turned Scourge, no Alliance-alligned human, elf or dwarf followed him anymore.

    Alliance is not pure, there are atrocities in its list of sins. Nobody can argue the Horde is pure either, but there are good reasons why it became this way.

    - For Garrosh it began with wanting to procure better living conditions for his people, then as time went by his focus shifted more on Horde Supremacy, and Cataclysm hammered the last nail in ruining Durotar into an even worse mess then it was and Twilight Hammer played the most pressing part in sparking the war.
    - Orcs followed Garrosh, because the majority of them had been born and raised in internment camps and nowadays lived in a shitty piece of land that Cataclysm made even worse. They weren't satisfied in their lot in life, while their neighbors, the night elves, lived in lush forests.
    - Thrall didn't care to take the job AND he became busy with important world-mending shaman-stuff, so he chose Garrosh, who would certainly be able to bear the weight of war and leading their people through tough times one way or another. Tbh, at that point Garrosh could still have become a better orc, as the Stonetalon quest and overall disgust at backhanded tactics showed.
    - Other races followed Garrosh's will, for at first there was no serious beefs with him, only minor ones, then as those beefs grew the most pressing reason for staying in the Horde became fear of retaliation; the orcs always outnumbered the other races and there was no certainty the other non-orc races would pick your side should you rebel. Now that shit is really hitting the fan they're finally ascertaining their position and making moves against Garrosh.

    I believe the bulk, if not all, of the orcs will turn against Garrosh too. Orcs & Humans is the persistent theme of Warcraft, so it wouldn't work if we annihilated most of our core-race. I think after the fall of the Thunder King the remaining mogu will see benefit in following Garrosh and the rest of his forces would be Blackrock orcs. Villain-races for the endboss instead of our brothers.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •