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  1. #81
    Herald of the Titans Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broloth View Post
    No, I'm not arguing technicalities. Garrosh is a member of the Horde. He's the leader of the Horde. Arthas is not, and was not ever part of the Alliance. He was part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, sure, but that's not who we're talking about. If you REALLY wanna use past groupings, then the Horde aren't going to come out on top. You have Gul'dan, Nerzhul, Magtheridon, the Burning Legion. All of a sudden the Alliance look A LOT more righteous when compared to the horde.

    The human, Arthas, that destroyed half of Azeroth with the Scourge was not PART of the Alliance. So you can't blame the Alliance. Just like we don't blame the Horde for killing Thrall's parents.

    It's no double standard. Now, if Arthas had been part of the Alliance, had he been the leader of the Alliance and he went all Lich King on everyone, and then the rest of the Alliance went and continued following him, then you'd have a decent analogy; but he wasn't.

    Garithos? Blackmoore? NOT PART OF THE GODAMN ALLIANCE. LORDAEREONS DON'T FUCKING COUNT, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT PART OF THE ALLIANCE. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WRYNN AND GARROSH. THE ALLIANCE AND THE HORDE. NOT THE ALLLIANCE OF LORDAERON VS. THE BURNING LEGION.

    So give me an actual example, of when a member (or preferably, a leader) of THE ALLIANCE (remember, we're talking about WoW, not WC3, they are two DIFFERENT FACTIONS) did anything as atrocious as Garrosh.
    Your argument is weak in this regard: Wrynn's Alliance remembers Alliance of Lordaeron fondly and goes by the same ideals. Stormwind was practically crashing in Lordaeron during the Second War. Varian even says something to the effect "Look what they have done to our city" during Battle of the Undercity in Wrath. Arguing the Lordaeron of the past has no meaningful connection to present day Alliance is, as SylvanaSlave said, a technicality.

    Having said that, I don't personally believe Arthas is that good a comparison here. The soldiers following him to Northrend wanted vengeance too, just not as fiercely, and first and foremost they were following their prince's orders; once the ambassador informed them the king orders them to return, they obliged, which is why Arthas burned the ships. Muradin was on a quest of his own and felt tagging along with Arthas would benefit them both, being friends and all; he didn't know about the changes Arthas was going through till it was too late. When Arthas turned Scourge, no Alliance-alligned human, elf or dwarf followed him anymore.

    Alliance is not pure, there are atrocities in its list of sins. Nobody can argue the Horde is pure either, but there are good reasons why it became this way.

    - For Garrosh it began with wanting to procure better living conditions for his people, then as time went by his focus shifted more on Horde Supremacy, and Cataclysm hammered the last nail in ruining Durotar into an even worse mess then it was and Twilight Hammer played the most pressing part in sparking the war.
    - Orcs followed Garrosh, because the majority of them had been born and raised in internment camps and nowadays lived in a shitty piece of land that Cataclysm made even worse. They weren't satisfied in their lot in life, while their neighbors, the night elves, lived in lush forests.
    - Thrall didn't care to take the job AND he became busy with important world-mending shaman-stuff, so he chose Garrosh, who would certainly be able to bear the weight of war and leading their people through tough times one way or another. Tbh, at that point Garrosh could still have become a better orc, as the Stonetalon quest and overall disgust at backhanded tactics showed.
    - Other races followed Garrosh's will, for at first there was no serious beefs with him, only minor ones, then as those beefs grew the most pressing reason for staying in the Horde became fear of retaliation; the orcs always outnumbered the other races and there was no certainty the other non-orc races would pick your side should you rebel. Now that shit is really hitting the fan they're finally ascertaining their position and making moves against Garrosh.

    I believe the bulk, if not all, of the orcs will turn against Garrosh too. Orcs & Humans is the persistent theme of Warcraft, so it wouldn't work if we annihilated most of our core-race. I think after the fall of the Thunder King the remaining mogu will see benefit in following Garrosh and the rest of his forces would be Blackrock orcs. Villain-races for the endboss instead of our brothers.

  2. #82
    Legendary! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    So Arthas didn't have an Alliance army with him in Lorderon that followed him to Northrend?

    Arthas was not opposed by the alliance he was a part of it as was evident by Muradin joining up with him in Northrend, it was not a seperate organisation it was an alliance between Humanity, Elves and Dwarves, Lorderon just stopped being the leader of the alliance when it was destroyed.

    Arthas, Garithos, and Garrosh are not all "just one guy" they commanded armies who had to follow their orders. Arthas would never have done what he did without help from alliance men, the same is true of Garithos, Garrosh likewise has his own armies in us players as troops and as much as we dislike him Horde players do not have a choice but to follow orders due to game mechanics.

    On paper there is no difference between them, all 3 were massive morons who commanded armies, the difference with Garrosh is Horde players are forced to partake in it as a storytelling device.
    When he went to Northrend he was still fighting the Scourge. He went there to face Mal'Ganis. It was after the Northrend campaign that he turned into a villain

    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanaSlave View Post
    The situation is actually very similar and in both cases the responsible party, be it Arthas or Garrosh, does not represent the views of his entire faction. Arthas was mentally weak and susceptible to a lust for vengeance for Stratholme, which ultimately lead to his corruption. He destroyed his own fleet against his father's orders to pursue Mal'Ganis to Northrend. Similarly, Garrosh as we all know, rules with an iron fist and leads through fear. You can say that Bain and Vol'jin "might not be ok with what Garrosh is doing, but they still fight for him" but that is entirely through fear and nothing to do with respect and friendship. You can add Sylvanas, Saurfang, Lor'themar, and now Thrall to that list. So if you compare the two example, they are very similar. The other races and leaders of the Horde are no more with Garrosh than the Alliance were with Arthas when he ran off to Northrend. In neither case are these parties sanctioning what their respective leaders are doing - Bronzebeard, Terenas, Jaina to name a few, all voiced their opinion against Arthas's actions but he did it anyway. Saurfang, Sylvanas, and Vol'jin have all expressed their opinions of Garrosh to his face and warned him of the consequences of his actions but he still went and bombed Theramore and attacked them at Pandaria. They do not "fight for him" under the banner of a true and honest alliance, but only through a marriage of convenience and fear for their own people if they rebel. It is important to be wary of that difference.
    Garrosh does have a large amount of supporters. It's not just Garrosh that wants to battle the Alliance, there are a lot of orcs that support him and even a lot of the other races. On top of that, even the people, who aren't really on his side still fight for him. Arthas was a completely different thing. Arthas switched sides. He didn't have a large group of Alliance soldiers. The only humans that were on his side were scourge-aligned. So no, they are not similar. Arthas was fucking evil, while Garrosh is a reckless conqueror that fights for and with his people. In that regard I even think Arthas was worse than Garrosh. But Garrosh fights with and for the Horde, while Arthas didn't fight for or with the Alliance.


    Quote Originally Posted by SylvanaSlave View Post
    There are plenty more examples of the Alliance's dark side - Blackmoore and Fandral Staghelm to name a couple - but that is not the point. I could just as easily argue that Garrosh is the "the one guy everyone points to when they want to show how the Horde is just a bunch of douches" but that would be both petty and incorrect, for reasons I've just explained above. It goes back to my point earlier that I was making, that atrocities, war crimes or whatever, are relative. I think any level-headed debater would not argue for the moral differences between a grand marshal sanctioning an act of genocide on the Blood Elves or a warcheif bombing an Alliance city without provocation, killing hundreds if not thousands. Either way, they are both despicable acts and that is the ultimate point, which is that over the course of history it is no way true to argue that the Alliance plays the defensive role and the Horde the provocative or aggressive role. Both faction's hands are just as bloody as the others and both faction's have had their rebels in charge which do not represent the majority. If you start splitting hairs with regards to this it only comes across as bias, which basically kills off any chance of sensible and rational debate, and obviously we do not want that.
    I think you're misunderstanding something here. The question is not if a certain race is inherently evil or not. We all know a person can be good or evil independent from his race and origin. But it still stands that the Alliance's motive for fighting the Horde is to protect their people from what they think is a threat (which is understandable considering the most recent events) and the Horde fights for the sole reason of gaining land and resources. Those motives change with the leaders of course. It is however true that most of the time the Alliance was in the defensive position while the Horde were the aggressors.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2012-11-08 at 01:41 PM.

  3. #83
    I think you're misunderstanding something here. The question is not if a certain race is inherently evil or not. We all know a person can be good or evil independent from his race and origin. But it still stands that the Alliance's motive for fighting the Horde is to protect their people from what they think is a threat (which is understandable considering the most recent events) and the Horde fights for the sole reason of gaining land and resources. Those motives change with the leaders of course. It is however true that most of the time the Alliance was in the defensive position while the Horde were the aggressors.
    It is not as simple as that.

    Why do we fight? A question very much at the heart of this expansion. The Horde initially fought because they were in a demonically induced bloodlust and ordered into Azeroth to prepare for the Legion's invasion.

    But that was before the new horde. What now?

    Since then they have regained their senses and tradition, left the eastern kingdoms and settled a new homeland on a new continent. However it can also be argued that they have never been left alone since settling Durotar either, attacked first by Daelin (WC3 and vanilla) and secondly by Northwatch (Cata) humans have always been attacking Durotar.

    (interestingly, the Humans of Stormwind have also been under attack from blackrock clan remnants who do not follow Thrall's Horde)

    So the alliance fights because they rightly percieve a threat in the Horde from past deeds, the Horde fights because they percieve a threat in the Alliance who have always hated and hounded them. lorethemar was spot on when he said the Horde exists because of the alliance, likewise the alliance in the same way exists because of the Horde.

    Can they ever learn to co-exist? To break the constant cycle of conflict started by the legion? That is the real question.
    Last edited by Briga; 2012-11-08 at 04:01 PM.

  4. #84
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    So the alliance fights because they rightly percieve a threat in the Horde from past deeds, the Horde fights because they percieve a threat in the Alliance who have always hated and hounded them.
    Currently that isn't really the case for the Horde. ATM the Horde really are just fighting to conquer Azeroth.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Currently that isn't really the case for the Horde. ATM the Horde really are just fighting to conquer Azeroth.
    it has been stated that the reason Garrosh hates the alliance so much is because he views the alliance as responsible for the Horde's hardships, as I recall Varian in undercity even stated to Thrall he wanted to see the Horde wiped out so it does back up the position of how the orcs feel threatened.

    Garrosh is driving the Horde right now and he's the one who wants to conquer literally everything, the other leaders do not have the stomach for it. I don't think we have seen truly what is really driving him but we will find out.

  6. #86
    I really like Varian. To me, he's the most believable character they've added to WoW in quite a while.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  7. #87
    Legendary! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    It is not as simple as that.

    Why do we fight? A question very much at the heart of this expansion. The Horde initially fought because they were in a demonically induced bloodlust and ordered into Azeroth to prepare for the Legion's invasion.

    But that was before the new horde. What now?

    Since then they have regained their senses and tradition, left the eastern kingdoms and settled a new homeland on a new continent. However it can also be argued that they have never been left alone since settling Durotar either, attacked first by Daelin (WC3 and vanilla) and secondly by Northwatch (Cata) humans have always been attacking Durotar.

    (interestingly, the Humans of Stormwind have also been under attack from blackrock clan remnants who do not follow Thrall's Horde)

    So the alliance fights because they rightly percieve a threat in the Horde from past deeds, the Horde fights because they percieve a threat in the Alliance who have always hated and hounded them. lorethemar was spot on when he said the Horde exists because of the alliance, likewise the alliance in the same way exists because of the Horde.

    Can they ever learn to co-exist? To break the constant cycle of conflict started by the legion? That is the real question.
    Daelin was right.

  8. #88
    Mechagnome Stravs's Avatar
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  9. #89
    Scarab Lord Arkenaw's Avatar
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    I like him, but not his weird blood elf pony tail.


  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I really like Varian. To me, he's the most believable character they've added to WoW in quite a while.
    I don't think he is any more beleivable than Garrosh, partly this is due to the way both characters have undergone such heavy u-turns since their inception, their personalities have altered too much.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Currently that isn't really the case for the Horde. ATM the Horde really are just fighting to conquer Azeroth.
    Well; yes... The Horde wants to 'conquer' Azeroth... Well; what they réálly want is to defeat the Alliance, so that they can have a fair share of the resources, and don't need to crawl in the dirt. In order to achieve this, a large party of the Horde believes they need to bring the fight to the Alliance, face them once and for all, and claim their existence on this world. Claim their rights by steel and blood.
    Basically, Garrosh' Horde is tired of playing meek, and tired of being spat at and assaulted. They've been abused by the Alliance for too long, and they won't play nice anymore.

    The reason why Garrosh got so much support was exactly that: The Horde got tired of being cornered, killed and starved. They want to strike back.
    In effect, the Horde has the Alliance to thank for Garrosh.

  12. #92
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    it has been stated that the reason Garrosh hates the alliance so much is because he views the alliance as responsible for the Horde's hardships, as I recall Varian in undercity even stated to Thrall he wanted to see the Horde wiped out so it does back up the position of how the orcs feel threatened.
    Garrosh hates the Alliance because they have what he does not. Worse still he could have what they have but he refuses to acknowledge that it is his fault and those of the Horde that prevent such things from occurring. Want to trade with Night Elves? Too bad your clan has been attacking and plundering their Homeland for years. Garrosh is an idiot. It was made clear during the Theramore Peace Summit where he was schooled on politics by Anduin. His tactics in Northrend and even afterwards were seen as merciless by the Alliance.

    Horde acts -> Alliance retaliate -> Horde play the victim card

    That is why Garrosh feels "threatened". He starts a war because his own action put it in such a place, then uses the Alliances retaliation as an excuse to escalate the War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    Garrosh is driving the Horde right now and he's the one who wants to conquer literally everything, the other leaders do not have the stomach for it. I don't think we have seen truly what is really driving him but we will find out.
    No we know what's driving him. His idea of peace and resources for Horde is one where there is only the Horde that can have them in the first place which is why his aim is to conquer Azeroth. It is pretty much the same reason the Orcs the Orcs came to Azeroth in the first place.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    I don't think he is any more beleivable than Garrosh, partly this is due to the way both characters have undergone such heavy u-turns since their inception, their personalities have altered too much.
    By all sources, the Varian we're seeing now; rational/reasonable, tactical in his approach, military minded but eager to be involved on the front lines, is how Varian has always been as far as people who knew him were concerned. The somewhat irrational, quick to anger Varian of Wrath (and he wasn't remotely present in Cataclysm) was the Varian who was still not fully whole after Onyxia's spell.

    For that matter, Garrosh hasn't U-turned as much as people suggest. His development has been progressive towards where we are and where we're going. The writing's been on the wall the whole time.

    The biggest U Turn I see people claim is the Druid School vs Theramore. Garrosh baited the Alliance military leaders to Theramore and left more than enough time for them to get civilians out of there. It's not impossible to see the difference in the two if Garrosh's anger in Stonetalon was the attack on civilian non combatants and not the methods used.

    Though to be fair...you DO have to read the comics and the novels to get all the information. :/
    Last edited by Faroth; 2012-11-08 at 04:39 PM.
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  14. #94
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    The reason why Garrosh got so much support was exactly that: The Horde got tired of being cornered, killed and starved. They want to strike back.
    In effect, the Horde has the Alliance to thank for Garrosh.
    As I mentioned above the Orcs are their situation because they never stopped their aggression in Ashenvale. Why should the Night Elves trade with people who are always invading their sacred land?

    They brought this on themselves, then when things were looking better for the Horde Garrosh shows up.

  15. #95
    Want to trade with Night Elves? Too bad your clan has been attacking and plundering their Homeland for years
    Want the orcs to stop chopping your woods down? Too bad you took the rote of assassinating all those orcs without prior warning, threat or other kind of notification that would have allowed you to open negotiations.
    Honestly, as far as diplomacy goes, the Night Elves are more responsible for the war than the Orcs.
    The Orcs do continue chopping down those woods mainly out of spite, which, honestly, is rather childish. I don't condone it one bit. But it was the Night Elves who made negotiations impossible.

  16. #96
    He had a period of douchebagness and lolrage that was justified by the events and the story showed how he managed to evolve out of it and into the all around solid leader he's now.

    So I like Varian, most probably do.

    This thread seems pointless.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Lostwood View Post
    The vast majority seems to like the character.

    What annoys me is his stupid ponytail and the lack of manly beard.

    Edit:
    OMG the beard is awesome. Blizz needs to make this change now.

  18. #98
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Want the orcs to stop chopping your woods down? Too bad you took the rote of assassinating all those orcs without prior warning, threat or other kind of notification that would have allowed you to open negotiations.
    Honestly, as far as diplomacy goes, the Night Elves are more responsible for the war than the Orcs.
    The Orcs do continue chopping down those woods mainly out of spite, which, honestly, is rather childish. I don't condone it one bit. But it was the Night Elves who made negotiations impossible.
    Both are to blame for the initial hostility.
    The Orc's were destroying their home, they had every right to defend their home. Grom then decided to push further and destroy more of their home then when things backfired he decided to damn his clan and kill Cenarius.

    Even after the defeat of Archimonde where the two races allied with each other and where Mal and Thrall saw eye to eye the Warsong continued and Thrall did nothing. The continued fault is in the hands of the Orcs, not the Night Elves. It is crystal clear who's land it is, the Orcs are aware they are invading somebodies home.

    It is the Orcs fault. The Night Elves were willing to put their initial battle behind themselves but the Orcs continued.

  19. #99
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TobiasX View Post
    Alternatively he could keep his beard in a presentable state like Greymane does.
    If he had a beard, people would not notice that scar. It's that scar is what made him what he is, and he must show it with pride. It's a reminder of what he endured and what he will never forget what was done to him, and the retribution to come to those who enslaved him.

    No beard in an image of manhood can make up for that.

    And Kevyne will always be clean shaven, as he's a Holy paladin...a symbol of paladin purity. Beards are unclean and hides the face, that window to the soul, which is very unbecoming for a Beacon of Light (which by extension what Varian should be...too bad he's a warrior and not a paladin).
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Want the orcs to stop chopping your woods down? Too bad you took the rote of assassinating all those orcs without prior warning, threat or other kind of notification that would have allowed you to open negotiations.
    Honestly, as far as diplomacy goes, the Night Elves are more responsible for the war than the Orcs.
    The Orcs do continue chopping down those woods mainly out of spite, which, honestly, is rather childish. I don't condone it one bit. But it was the Night Elves who made negotiations impossible.
    Night elves attacked to drive invaders out of their lands. Dick move, yes.
    Orcs responded by returning to fel corruption by drinking demon blood and killing Cenarius. Much bigger dick move.

    However, night elves did not make negotiations impossible. It's again in a novel, but the night elves established not only negotiated terms, but allowed the orcs limited harvesting of lumber and hunting rights within Ashenvale until the events prior to the Cataclysm. The Twilight Cultists' slaughter of the Sentinels in the forest under guise of being Horde led to the halt of all trade routes through Ashenvale as well as stopped the Horde's access to the forest entirely. Garrosh's first response was "screw them, we will take whatever we want" which was met with disdain from Cairne, Eitrigg, etc.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 04:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    If he had a beard, people would not notice that scar. It's that scar is what made him what he is, and he must show it with pride. It's a reminder of what he endured and what he will never forget what was done to him, and the retribution to come to those who enslaved him.

    No beard in an image of manhood can make up for that.

    And Kevyne will always be clean shaven, as he's a Holy paladin...a symbol of paladin purity. Beards are unclean and hides the face, that window to the soul, which is very unbecoming for a Beacon of Light (which by extension what Varian should be...too bad he's a warrior and not a paladin).
    ....Uther had a beard.

    I think Varian might indeed look pretty good with the right beard. You'd still see the scar across his nose and eye. Not a fan of the long one seen in the edited image above in this thread, though. That's more "magely" style than I'd expect on Varian.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2012-11-08 at 05:04 PM.
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