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  1. #21
    This week on the kill of the first boss in Heart of Fear i ranked 4th in the world with the mastery reforges.
    Last week on the kill I ranked about 50 i think it was, with haste spec.

    Exactly the same gear.
    And this weeks kill was only 25 sec faster.

    Im reforging Mastery > crit > haste

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    This week on the kill of the first boss in Heart of Fear i ranked 4th in the world with the mastery reforges.
    Last week on the kill I ranked about 50 i think it was, with haste spec.

    Exactly the same gear.
    And this weeks kill was only 25 sec faster.

    Im reforging Mastery > crit > haste
    But its not equal. You may have screwed up something last week. What you need to do is show a true apples to apples comparison. I could stand still one week and auto attack, then the next week gem intellect and actually use some specials, and then conclude that I do better DPS gemming intellect than strength. It's just difficult to put faith in anecdotal evidence.

  3. #23
    Dont understand why people are so anti mastery... Try something new for once.

  4. #24
    I could definately see this working on long execute phases or lots of cleaving but I have trouble seeing this as a single target bonus. Even simming my own gear seems a dps loss vs haste. It not a big difference 100s of dps, but still a difference.

  5. #25
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Looks like someone hates to be wrong...
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    I was about to say the same thing haha
    Sorry, what? I don't want to be right at all. I just said you need to provide something more than just your word to support your statement. I've never said people saying that mastery is better than haste are wrong, I just said it seems a bit strange to me seeing sims on EJ and the ones I made. That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Regardless of my last post, I understand what you're saying. While you may kill the boss two straight weeks the same way, it doesn't mean second for second every keystroke was the same. Also after a week your dps could have improved cause the raid killed the boss faster etc. There are a lot of variables and I do understand that however I'm simply saying that the stat values could be wrong like they were at the beginning of cata which was proven to be wrong. If you were a frost dk and not dw unholy and actually ranking you would understand that...However I don't think you played frost then especially considering this is an unholy thread. I ranked 19th on al'akir as frost when Al'Akir was actually progression. This was going haste/mastery UP over Mastery/Crit FP. Was also top 10 FDK for alysrazor(I shouldnt have been flying I know but I was one of my guilds top dps so I was better suited for the sky). Then I quit the game and people got geared enough to the point that I was obviously run out of the top spots. Anyways back to my point the stats could be wrong...just play around with simcraft and input stat weights different change haste and mastery point for point and see how much the dps changes whether up or down?
    I don't need to be ranked to say what I'm sayin, gg to you that got ranked, I just wish I could be ranked so high aswell but since I'm not a pro and not so progressed as you. I just got few dps ranked well below 100th and I'm really proud of me anyway.

    Beside this you are saying the same thing as me, run sim to see if this is true.
    You are right that they could be wrong but I think we should always assume they are correct, otherwise they loose completely their value.
    Last edited by Italiandk; 2012-11-08 at 05:27 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    This week on the kill of the first boss in Heart of Fear i ranked 4th in the world with the mastery reforges.
    Last week on the kill I ranked about 50 i think it was, with haste spec.

    Exactly the same gear.
    And this weeks kill was only 25 sec faster.

    Im reforging Mastery > crit > haste
    Some things i've seen from this thread....

    Using elegon as a comparison between haste and mastery is foolish. The boss takes extra damage the longer the fight goes on, this benefits mastery more than haste. In addition the benefit of haste is diminished during bloodlust when the boss takes the most damage. Also mastery buffs diseases which are spread to all adds. Its a decent aoe fight for unholy and the aoe isn't long enough for haste to catch up. You pest to the sparks and then single target dps.


    Onto this claim. I found the parses you reference, lets dive into them.

    Haste parse ( last week) http://worldoflogs.com/reports/x1gro...?s=3700&e=4059
    Mastery Parse ( this week) http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-jx...?s=2713&e=3053

    Thats 500 dps better from the mastery to haste. Faster kill made up some of the difference, in addition, while not hugely significant, you had a fair amount less uptime on your runeforge. (13%) on your haste kill.

    Not even considering your parses for a moment, why are we even trying to decide on this without sims? We cannot have an accurate test without them as nobody has the time to kill the same boss, thousands of times that is required to get an accurate test without outliers. 2 boss kills even with the same gear is extremely unreliable, in addition the increase is very low ( .5%?) if my math is correct.

    Mastery>crit>haste.

    Completely inverting our priority? I mean, having mastery doesn't devalue haste, so why the huge drop? I would have expected something such as Mastery>haste>crit or haste>mastery>crit but to completely reforge out of haste is backwards to everything we scale with.

    In conclusion, I see this a plausable, however posting about your parses and what you did isn't worth very much, especially when the results are so close that a few extra crits due to rng could have made the difference ( Imagine if haste spec had gotten 2 random soul reaper crits.)

  7. #27
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    This week on the kill of the first boss in Heart of Fear i ranked 4th in the world with the mastery reforges.
    Last week on the kill I ranked about 50 i think it was, with haste spec.

    Exactly the same gear.
    And this weeks kill was only 25 sec faster.

    Im reforging Mastery > crit > haste
    Could you link your log please? I just want to check them, nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    But its not equal. You may have screwed up something last week. What you need to do is show a true apples to apples comparison. I could stand still one week and auto attack, then the next week gem intellect and actually use some specials, and then conclude that I do better DPS gemming intellect than strength. It's just difficult to put faith in anecdotal evidence.
    I ranked 2nd reforging crit over everything else, you trust me or you want some more?

    I mean, wtf is wrong with what I'm saying? It's just because I don't trust people blindly? Just explain me because I really don't know.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Could you link your log please? I just want to check them, nothing more.



    I ranked 2nd reforging crit over everything else, you trust me or you want some more?

    I mean, wtf is wrong with what I'm saying? It's just because I don't trust people blindly? Just explain me because I really don't know.

    Its not a matter of trust. Its a matter of parses being on reliable when analyzing how the spec performs. The best way to determine how good a stat is, is by simming it. When I start seeing sims, i'll treat this as more than a fad or preference.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Could you link your log please? I just want to check them, nothing more.



    I ranked 2nd reforging crit over everything else, you trust me or you want some more?

    I mean, wtf is wrong with what I'm saying? It's just because I don't trust people blindly? Just explain me because I really don't know.

    I did link my logs. and to Nangz, Elegon when i killed him with Mastery only had 5 stacks of his damage increase buff. Whereas you have atleast 10 on normal mode.

  10. #30
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    I did link my logs. and to Nangz, Elegon when i killed him with Mastery only had 5 stacks of his damage increase buff. Whereas you have atleast 10 on normal mode.
    Sorry I missed them.

    Are we really talking about 500dps more? Seriously?

    Keep in mind that dpse is affected by activity % while the dps is not. So if you start to dps when you enter the fight you'll have nearly 100% activity and nearly the whole dps will be dpse on the opposit if you start to dps after some time you enter the combat you'll have lower % activity and lower dpse while the dps done could be the same.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Sorry I missed them.

    Are we really talking about 500dps more? Seriously?

    Keep in mind that dpse is affected by activity % while the dps is not. So if you start to dps when you enter the fight you'll have nearly 100% activity and nearly the whole dps will be dpse on the opposit if you start to dps after some time you enter the combat you'll have lower % activity and lower dpse while the dps done could be the same.
    This is another fair point about those logs, you had 4% more activity.

    On elegon, 5 stacks vs 10 stacks is irrelevant, the fact is that you don't gain the stacks all at the beginning of the fight, you have more stacks at the end, where mastery is more effective, than at the begining or middle, where haste is.

    If you were to draw a graph of haste's strength as a fight progresses, it would be a straight horizontal line, haste doesn't increase in value as the fight progresses because you our execute isn't effected by haste in that you get to do more of it. You always hit it every 6 seconds, haste only gives you more scourge strikes.

    If you were to draw a graph of mastery's strength as a fight progresses, it would be a straight horizontal line until 35%, then it would shoot upwards because a greater percentage of your damage comes from mastery buffed sources.

    Stacking mastery buffs your last 35% which is the biggest increase on a fight like elegon. If you had 10 stacks, the difference would be much larger between haste and mastery on that fight. Not only because your execute phase deals that much more damage, but you kill sparks in phase 2 longer, I assume you spread diseases to each spark. Haste has no effect on this damage, mastery does.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Dont understand why people are so anti mastery... Try something new for once.
    Oh it was like this when I was favoring mastery in DS Hazraka. People dismissed it and said I would be lieing about my dps because my stats were all set "wrong".

    It's most likely because websites that tell you how to spec and everything don't say go mastery it says go haste, and there are few people now who play the way they want, in a way they enjoy (which imo makes them dps better because well they are enjoying it!) compared to people who google bis's, best spec stat reforges ect.

    Overall from what I have seen and done personally mastery is a slight dps increase, especially on aoe, and especially with long execute phases.

  13. #33
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    Oh it was like this when I was favoring mastery in DS Hazraka. People dismissed it and said I would be lieing about my dps because my stats were all set "wrong".

    It's most likely because websites that tell you how to spec and everything don't say go mastery it says go haste, and there are few people now who play the way they want, in a way they enjoy (which imo makes them dps better because well they are enjoying it!) compared to people who google bis's, best spec stat reforges ect.

    Overall from what I have seen and done personally mastery is a slight dps increase, especially on aoe, and especially with long execute phases.
    You could gem straight crit or even intellect if you'd like it, I don't really care but if you come here and say that doing so is a dps increase excuse me but I'll ask you some proof.

    It's like saying haste is better but at the moment there are more than 1 proof to support that statement.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    You could gem straight crit or even intellect if you'd like it, I don't really care but if you come here and say that doing so is a dps increase excuse me but I'll ask you some proof.

    It's like saying haste is better but at the moment there are more than 1 proof to support that statement.
    Why do you want proof so damn badly?
    Just deal with it. Its good.

  15. #35
    Why are you guys getting so defensive? If you make claims that contradict established thought then you should be prepared to provide compelling evidence to support your claims or risk being doubted. It's the scientific method. A handful of logs is not enough evidence for a lot of people. You can either prove your point or continue decrying everyone else as haters.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 01:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Why do you want proof so damn badly?
    Just deal with it. Its good.
    Probably because any idiot can make claims, provide anecdotal evidence and say "trust me, it works".

  16. #36
    Think what you want, be a mainstream robot then. Be afraid to try something that isnt printed on a website.

  17. #37
    Brewmaster Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Think what you want, be a mainstream robot then. Be afraid to try something that isnt printed on a website.
    That's a little condescending.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Think what you want, be a mainstream robot then. Be afraid to try something that isnt printed on a website.
    If I told you that shooting yourself in the leg would make a billion dollars fly out, you wouldn't be a mainstream robot for requesting solid proof. You make a claim that runs counter to established knowledge, you need to prove it.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    If I told you that shooting yourself in the leg would make a billion dollars fly out, you wouldn't be a mainstream robot for requesting solid proof. You make a claim that runs counter to established knowledge, you need to prove it.

    Logs are sufficient in my eyes, and if its that important to get proof, reforge yourself and go into LFR. Its not difficult

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Logs are sufficient in my eyes, and if its that important to get proof, reforge yourself and go into LFR. Its not difficult
    Two logs of a given fight are not sufficient. There are far too many variables to compare two fights of the same boss and come to an iron clad conclusion.

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