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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Logs are sufficient in my eyes, and if its that important to get proof, reforge yourself and go into LFR. Its not difficult
    If 2 logs are sufficient in your eyes go right ahead. The rest of us prefer to be logical and precise when we decide to gear our toons. We don't even want proof, proof is subjective, all you have presented is ineffective evidence and anecdotal evidence. Both of which is insufficient in both quantity and reliability.

    I have nothing personally invested in my argument, but if you make a claim and expect people to believe it because you ranked well, with clear differences outside the changes you said, you have another thing coming.


    In addition you're the OP, you came asking if its viable. You already had clearly sufficient evidence for yourself, was this needed? Present some sims and there can be a legitimate discussion.
    Last edited by Nangz; 2012-11-08 at 07:33 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    If 2 logs are sufficient in your eyes go right ahead. The rest of us prefer to be logical and precise when we decide to gear our toons. We don't even want proof, proof is subjective, all you have presented is ineffective evidence and anecdotal evidence. Both of which is insufficient in both quantity and reliability.

    I have nothing personally invested in my argument, but if you make a claim and expect people to believe it because you ranked well, with clear differences outside the changes you said, you have another thing coming.


    In addition you're the OP, you came asking if its viable. You already had clearly sufficient evidence for yourself, was this needed? Present some sims and there can be a legitimate discussion.

    If you would read from the start you would see that i dont use sim.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    If you would read from the start you would see that i dont use sim.
    That's fine. I'm going to write you a speeding ticket. I didn't confirm your speed with a radar because I don't use them, but trust me. I'm ranked 4th in the world in writing tickets.

    What I'm getting at is that you keep saying you won't provide proof but keep insulting people for not buying into what you're saying. If you don't want to provide Sim proof, then go kill Patchwerk 100 times with each configuration and post the logs.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    If you would read from the start you would see that i dont use sim.
    And that is why you aint maximizing your character. Congratulations, you got rank #5, want to know why? Cause all other guilds are busy raiding with alt/mains to gear it up as much as possible. Mastery is not better, you have way too low runic regeneration to dump Death Coils efficiently. You aint playing frost so you aint getting a ton of RP to dump it. Also, as Unholy, Death Coils are these to stack your Ghoul, not to be your main damaging source. The only reason we reforged mastery in DS was cause of Gurthalak's sick damage that stacked. Also, your ghoul gains nothing from your mastery, but gets from your haste and crit.
    Siegecrafter Blackfuse (25-N) testing is complete! Today's Wisdom:
    One man's Trash is another Man's Heroic Boss.

  5. #45
    Since this topic started yesterday I’ve run a number of sims, including some on Harzaka’s character.

    The results I’ve got confirm general wisdom; on a patchwerk fight a mastery build is lagging behind a haste build (though there is less than 1% difference).

    Are the sims infallible? Definitely not. Do I think they’re correct in this instance? Yes. Does that tell the whole story? No.

    It seems to be that for some fights the mastery build will perform better – basically on any fight that strongly emphasises execute, AOE or DOTs. In standard, single target fights haste will remain the highest dps secondary stat for unholy.

    People calling for more evidence with regards to this approach have a point – in fact I think there has been a shortage of good theory crafting for unholy since Mists dropped. Personally I’d like to see sims and stat weights for unholy’s AOE priority, as intuitively I feel mastery will have a much higher weighting.

    So what I’m taking out of this thread is that the mastery build could be better on certain fights, but further investigation is needed. Haste will remain the go to secondary stat.
    Last edited by Revenantparadigm; 2012-11-08 at 08:35 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Revenantparadigm View Post
    Since this topic started yesterday I’ve run a number of sims, including some on Harzaka’s character.

    The results I’ve got confirm general wisdom; on a patchwerk fight a mastery build is lagging behind a haste build (though there is less than 1% difference).

    Are the sims infallible? Definitely not. Do I think they’re correct in this instance? Yes. Does that tell the whole story? No.

    It seems to be that for some fights the mastery build will perform better – basically on any fight that strongly emphasises execute, AOE or DOTs. In standard, single target fights haste will remain the highest dps secondary stat for unholy.

    People calling for more evidence with regards to this approach have a point – in fact I think there has been a shortage of good theory crafting for unholy since Mists dropped. Personally I’d like to see sims and stat weights for unholy’s AOE priority, as intuitively I feel mastery will have a much higher weighting.

    So what I’m taking out of this thread is that the mastery build could be better on certain fights, but further investigation is needed. Haste will remain the go to secondary stat.
    For unholy aoe, it depends on the type of aoe more than anything. Elegon heavily favors mastery as you only get one global to spread diseases. Compare this to the aoe of a boss like wind lord. Its hard to tell, I would bet mastery beats haste because having fast rune recharge primarily effects blood boil for aoe. Its not enough of a percentage to warrant the change.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    That's a little condescending.
    That's like saying the Sun is a little bright.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  8. #48
    and a stupid question regarding all these,
    this mastery built is based on BT, RE or RC?

  9. #49
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    I would like to see the numbers for a haste build that has over 6k haste (where the roation really begins to flow) vs a mastery spec. Sims and all please. Because the UH rotation can feel a bit clunky when you are below 6-6.5k haste, but once you pass that the rotation really begins to work. I would certainly like to see more than the anecdotal and very circumstantial "well I tried it on a gimmick fight that favours mastery and it totally works, trust me".
    8 year olds Dude.

  10. #50
    My gear has 6.7k haste and I still struggle with a "flowing" rotation similar to the one we had at the end of dragon soul in full heroic gear. I have downtime, however, it is most noticeable sub 35% when you need to get off dark transform and soul reaper at the same time, and only have one unholy rune. Its a lot of waiting and holding runes, this will probably disappear in time, but for now its frustrating.

  11. #51
    Honestly Nangz probably hit why they're seeing by accident, with very little haste they're getting less runes and less globals and thus a 'simpler' rotation.

    I'd like to see a graph of their real-time DPS leading up to the sub-35%, I'm betting it's going to show Unholy opening strong, then dipping down into the middle of mediocrity, and then shooting back up at sub-35% because their mastery overtakes the lack of haste and skews the rest of the data to LOOK like they were doing a billion DPS.

    It's the same problem Warriors had in beta, where they had medicore DPS because so much was loaded into Execute, that they were basically semi-AFK until 20% and then they were rockstars for the final 45 seconds of a fight.

    Which is stupid, a strong execute is great, but not worth it if your DPS is a limp noodle for the first 65% of the fight.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  12. #52
    A few questions about this because I want to try it. Firstly which tier 75 talent are you guys using for this? Still RC or BT? Maybe even RE?

    Secondly, does DnD come back into the priority with the high mastery?

    Finally is crit better than haste for this build?

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by INecrosiSI View Post
    A few questions about this because I want to try it. Firstly which tier 75 talent are you guys using for this? Still RC or BT? Maybe even RE?

    Secondly, does DnD come back into the priority with the high mastery?

    Finally is crit better than haste for this build?
    1. I use Runic Corruption
    2. I always use DnD, even with a haste build
    3. I used crit for the mastery build

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Ive recently seen some people reforge into Mastery as unholy, and im just wondering if its viable or not.
    I use mastery / crit in RBGs and PvP in general I am playing only UH DK. Currently got over 2150 in 3s and 2300 in RBGs this season. its awesome!

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhart View Post
    I use mastery / crit in RBGs and PvP in general I am playing only UH DK. Currently got over 2150 in 3s and 2300 in RBGs this season. its awesome!
    Im talking PvE though

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