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  1. #1

    Hunters, completly obsolete in T14?

    Pulled Garalon a few times with my guild tonight until i finally sat myself after realising my class was a liability on this fight.

    Thats the conclusion i came with after being disapointed with my own performances compared to the rest of my raid, that were sadly on par with what i've seen on World of Logs from other Hunters.

    To be honest this tier we're complete garbage. Our DPS is sub-par to middle of the pack at best depending on the fights while the rotation is so tight that its a complete uphill battle to keep up with most other specs. We can't cleave like most Melee AND many Caster specs, even as survival. We don't bring any kind of buffs, even inluding our pets that aren't easily covered by better specs, and we don't have any kind of raid utility every single dps hybrid has.

    I honestly don't see why progression guilds even bring Hunters outside the fact some particular players actually enjoy their class and don't want to reroll. I honestly don't expect to see many Hunters in HoF top end kills, prolly even less than in T13.

    Feel free to discuss and disagree with me, woud love to be proven wrong.

  2. #2
    They need to stop taking damage away from the class dude to PvP bitching. There is no fight in game right now where hunter can top the meter against any other class even played at 75% potential.

    Yet the keep nerfing them.

  3. #3
    I see dark times ahead for our kind.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    They need to stop taking damage away from the class dude to PvP bitching. There is no fight in game right now where hunter can top the meter against any other class even played at 75% potential.

    Yet the keep nerfing them.
    Nailed it.
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  5. #5
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    You're pretty bad if you sat yourself on Garalon, seeing as hunters are by far the best kiters, and can put up the most damage of any DPS kiter.

    We're fine on Vizier, we're better than fine on the 2nd guy because the wind tunnel is best for mobile classes and you have movement boosts to get you there, Garalon we're the best kiter by far, Wind Lord the standard strat is to stand there and AOE the boss and the adds together, and SV is one of the best sustained AOE specs next to frost DK. Amber shaper we're weak on, and Empress has adds that need to be kited and snared in p2.

    The game in end-game raiding isn't all about *just* DPS any more. The new talent system has opened it up a lot. And here's a fact: hunters are *the* best mobile ranged class. Hands down. Even more so when Fox goes away. They're one of the best snare classes as well. Binding shot, deterrence for spark soaking on H-Will, the short DPS CDs in BM for Spiritual Innervation burst on Gara'jal, the sheer mobility on almost.every.single.fight...these are all considered invaluable tools at high end raiding.

    So stop saying that because you're not top DPS on *GARALON*, a fucking melee cleave fight if I've ever seen one, that hunters are shit. I'm doing fine as a hunter in my raid. My raidleader can't even comprehend sitting me, not for H-Will, not for H-Gara'jal, not for anything but maybe Ambershaper in HoF, and Stone Guards in MSV.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2012-11-08 at 08:59 AM.

  6. #6
    Hunters do have good utility on some encounters like WotE, ESP as Survival with our traps or even Garalon where we are great at moving and dpsing, stone gaurd heroic also. I don't disagree with you however in terms of our Dps vs other classes is woeful in particular encounters such as multi dot ones which seems to be the flavour this Teir. Blizzard must be looking at WOLs and probably monitering the situation. Perhaps they are waiting to see hunters decked in heroic gear before balancing numbers. Right now their focus seems PvP nerfs to LR nerfing it down to the ground to make it a useless talent.

  7. #7
    Yeah, sitting yourself on Garalon was a bad choice. On that fight you're not there for DPS, you're there to easily kite the boss while doing mostly the same level of DPS, allowing the multi-dotters and melee cleavers to do the majority of the DPS instead.

    Maybe your damage levels aren't as high as other classes, but you still bring plenty of utility. That cannot be ignored. A decent hunter will still pull competitive DPS, at any rate.

  8. #8
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    Let me amend that, my raidleader wouldn't even sit me for H-Stone Guards, because I'm by far the best tile runner and can soak 4-5 cobalt bombs every minute with deterrence. Lots of movement, plus high DPS while I'm running those tiles.

    Jesus, I just can't get over how short-sighted some of the hunters in this tier are being. Method used 3 hunters on their H-Will world first. Paragon ran with a hunter every fight except H-Will. No one has killed H-Vizier yet, but I imagine hunters will be strong at DPSing during attenuation dodging.

  9. #9
    I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I feel decent about hunters right now. I think our DPS is lower than what it should be, but things are no where near as bad as they were in early DS progression.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    They need to stop taking damage away from the class dude to PvP bitching. There is no fight in game right now where hunter can top the meter against any other class even played at 75% potential.

    Yet the keep nerfing them.
    Your right, they keep nerfing them because of PvP...but what is your solution? Let hunters be completely OP in PvP?

  11. #11
    Zergal:
    This thread pisses me off. Why don't you roll dps-flavor-of-the-month class instead of posting alarmist crap about benching yourself. Hunters are great fun to play, and they CAN be competitive if played to their potential. It's just not easy. The few times I've seen Garalon the hunters were solid and viable in dps and critical in utility. WTF, why bench yourself? I know we aren't at the top of the meters overall, but hunters help make boss kills happen, for all the reasons described in other posts above.

  12. #12
    I don't think it's simply because of PvP. Hunters have a feeling of being forced to minmaxing just to reach the bottom damage of the worst hybrid DPS since Cataclysm.

    Feels like the responsible for hunter balance in Blizzard development LOVE the feel to minmaxing to get on par with other classes and believe the world is 100% like him. BUT we don't have co-workers to which we show up by overcoming incredible challenge to make the least needed as him. So it's time to take his head out of his room and to see the customers aren't happy with his work.

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  13. #13
    Field Marshal PewpewNL's Avatar
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    Yes we do less damage on paper, but do you really think people like Kripparian / Draco etc (not fanboying) stop and stamp on the ground and cry?

    Come on pull yourself together, do your best and you'll see hunters aint that bad

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by S2omegaS2 View Post
    Your right, they keep nerfing them because of PvP...but what is your solution? Let hunters be completely OP in PvP?
    they are not OP in PvP. They had a bugged mechanic which was fixed, and if you fought anyone even remotely intelligent stampege was useless. It is very very easy to stop stampede. However if you a basement dwelling neckbeard stampede was impossible to deal with. I'm sorry making a class bottom of the barrel for PvP because of bad players being too lazy or stupid to figure out how easy stampede is to counter is not how to balance the game.

    Right now in PvP warrior and mages both have better burst and control then hunters, in PvE their sustained damage SINGLE target is superior to hunters and far easier to manage, and their multi target DPS is greatly superior to hunter because they can cleave.

    So to recap

    Mages sustained > hunter
    Mages burst > Hunters
    Mages control > hunters
    Warrior sustained > hunter
    Warrior burst > hunter
    Warrior control > hunters

    Hunters = OP but mages and warriors are fine. If you do not see the problem in that then you must be a mage or warrior, either that or you are a "huntard"

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikoangel View Post
    Zergal:
    This thread pisses me off. Why don't you roll dps-flavor-of-the-month class instead of posting alarmist crap about benching yourself. Hunters are great fun to play, and they CAN be competitive if played to their potential. It's just not easy. The few times I've seen Garalon the hunters were solid and viable in dps and critical in utility. WTF, why bench yourself? I know we aren't at the top of the meters overall, but hunters help make boss kills happen, for all the reasons described in other posts above.
    I benched myself for a class that could actually help my guild get the kill with raid cds (Spriest) since our healers were struggling. And, no i got no intention of rerolling since i still enjoy my Hunter. I just feel so useless in many situation and not being to compete for top dps spots no matter how hard i try is just annoying as a pure DPS class. Definitively gonna gear up my Rogue for H:Garalon tough .

    Would be nice to have a discussion without stupid ad-hominems tough, everyone is entitled to his opinion, and if you want to bash me at least have the balls to put your main out, my main is linked to my sig.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 09:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PewpewNL View Post
    Yes we do less damage on paper, but do you really think people like Kripparian / Draco etc (not fanboying) stop and stamp on the ground and cry?

    Come on pull yourself together, do your best and you'll see hunters aint that bad
    Kripp pretty much did just that regarding Garalon. Might need a new hero to fanboy :/.



    ---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 09:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Let me amend that, my raidleader wouldn't even sit me for H-Stone Guards, because I'm by far the best tile runner and can soak 4-5 cobalt bombs every minute with deterrence. Lots of movement, plus high DPS while I'm running those tiles.

    Jesus, I just can't get over how short-sighted some of the hunters in this tier are being. Method used 3 hunters on their H-Will world first. Paragon ran with a hunter every fight except H-Will. No one has killed H-Vizier yet, but I imagine hunters will be strong at DPSing during attenuation dodging.
    H:Will is probably one of the very few fights this tier that you actually WANT to bring Hunters. My raidleader didn't sit me either, i can do everything you listed without any problems while keeping a competitive dps relative to my class at least. Maybe your strat is different to ours but we kite the boss with 2 plates soaking his cleaves to avoid Furys.
    Last edited by Zergal; 2012-11-08 at 09:57 PM.

  16. #16
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    You can't even soak with only 2 people. The debuff lasts 2 minutes and you gain a stack every 2s, which means to 2-kite you'd need to take 30 stacks each time, which is bordering on silly. Let's neglect that you suggest kiting with the two plate people who are soaking fury. "Hey man, I know you're taking this 200k hit every 6s or so, why don't you take a stacking DoT too?" That's relatively non-standard, and asking a lot of your tanks. Especially considering they have to switch positions within the cleave because if Garalon reaches his pheremone target, he melees them. We use a tank to take the first pheremone, he passes it off at 20 stacks, and never takes it again.

    4-kiting is fairly standard just to reduce raid damage, you can probably get away with 3 if you have perfect timing (if each takes 20 and no less, 1st person should be expiring just as 3rd is reaching 20 stacks). Because you need *at least* 1 person kiting besides the non-cleave tanks (if that's your strat, we tend to use 2 healers and 1 DPS, me), hunter is by far the best class to be that 1 person.

    Edit: As I've said before, the 7 minute enrage is trivial now, if you need to 2 kite and stack melee cleaves to meet the enrage, you're having different problems than the encounter calls for. You might have had a case when the enrage was 6m and DPS was an issue.

  17. #17
    In terms of Garalon, I totally agree with the OP. I ranked pretty high on Garalon while being 15th on the DPS meter (kiting 2x), this should tell you enough. @people claiming: "we're the best kiters for garalon", no, just no, healers and especially tanks are. We're kiting because we're shit on the rest of the encounter compared to other classes that have a cleave-type ability.

    For the other encounters in HOF it's generally middle of the pack, but I have to rank to keep up with other classes. Only time I felt really useful is kiting an add in P2 empress.
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  18. #18
    Dreadlord Ashe-Arathor's Avatar
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    I've been feeling incredibly weak in this tier to start off with. The damage output was just stupidly low compared to other classes and it's disheartening to see mages at the top of the meter constantly. It's not just PvP, but PvE as well. I just hate mages overall, I suppose.

    Then I got full epic and I found myself being near the top on most fights where I'm not required to do something extraordinary, such as on heroic stone guard or garalon, and even on garalon i'm not the only one who has to do the kiting.

    We're just about in the middle of the meters right now and I'm perfectly fine with that. Maybe it's just because we just came out of an expansion where hunters were amazing in survival and getting used to BM on most fights along with all the new talents, cooldowns and abilities is the problem, but either way it takes time to get used to the new way of playing.

    Hunter's need the nerf in PvP, it was just too much damage. But that being said, hunters are still facerolling with blink strike. I tried it last week and I didn't feel any difference in burst.

    In regards to Kripparrians video on Garalon, he's absolutely right. The boss is horrible for hunters and you might aswell don't take them if you got a mage or a rogue to take their spot. That's just how that boss works and it's nothing new, when it comes to class-stacking. That doesn't mean you're not useful on the fight, since a hunter not kiting might aswell be a mage with a bow. Kiting is what we're made for.

    Just deal with the problems one at a time. There's a reason Blizzard is buffing us in 5.1 by removing aspect of the fox and making us even more mobile than before. And as mentioned by several others, there are fights where hunters will overshine other classes. Just not as many as we are used to from the last expansion, obviously.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashe-Arathor View Post

    Just deal with the problems one at a time. There's a reason Blizzard is buffing us in 5.1 by removing aspect of the fox and making us even more mobile than before. And as mentioned by several others, there are fights where hunters will overshine other classes. Just not as many as we are used to from the last expansion, obviously.
    there is no fight that a mage cannot out do a hunter while putting in half the effort. That is the root of the problem. In PvP mage burst is better then hunter burst but its OK because they are mages that is the issue. Hunters get one ability that is strong and BUGGED now that class has to endure a crapton of nerfs breaking abilties and we are supposed to like it because they are removing fox...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    There is no fight in game right now where hunter can top the meter against any other class even played at 75% potential.
    What a load of horsecrap, on all our gara'jal hc kills i've been either #1 or #2 on the dmg meter of all who stays up, and we only send our locks and dks down with healers.
    So the majority of DPS are up.
    Same on Fenq, or well, when the aoe phase comes we're fucked but i still managed to end up at place #5.
    In HoF i've come out #1 on the first boss both kills, same on the last one.
    Sure, this is only 4 of 12 bosses but still.
    In most of the other fights we're in the middle, exept on Garalon and Stone guards were multi dotters and rogues are sick.

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