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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    What a load of horsecrap, on all our gara'jal hc kills i've been either #1 or #2 on the dmg meter of all who stays up, and we only send our locks and dks down with healers.
    So the majority of DPS are up.
    Same on Fenq, or well, when the aoe phase comes we're fucked but i still managed to end up at place #5.
    In HoF i've come out #1 on the first boss both kills, same on the last one.
    Sure, this is only 4 of 12 bosses but still.
    In most of the other fights we're in the middle, exept on Garalon and Stone guards were multi dotters and rogues are sick.
    Either you over gear everyone else or you out skill them because in a 25m (which I assume you do since you said warlocks and dks) you as a hunter shouldn't be top, you should still be able to compete on the dps meters but you really shouldn't be top unless it is a heavy AoE fight or ranged-favored-heavy-movement-fight.

    This however doesn't mean hunters are shit, absolutely not, we got amazing AoE, we got bunch of other things that might not be super mega awesome but can still make a fight easier such as kiting tools to high heavens and MD and feign death, deterrence, we can in a 10m bring more or less any buff missing.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Either you over gear everyone else or you out skill them because in a 25m (which I assume you do since you said warlocks and dks) you as a hunter shouldn't be top, you should still be able to compete on the dps meters but you really shouldn't be top unless it is a heavy AoE fight or ranged-favored-heavy-movement-fight.

    This however doesn't mean hunters are shit, absolutely not, we got amazing AoE, we got bunch of other things that might not be super mega awesome but can still make a fight easier such as kiting tools to high heavens and MD and feign death, deterrence, we can in a 10m bring more or less any buff missing.
    The gear is pretty even so i quess i must "out skill" them then, but i have also been running LFR every reset since it came out and i see the same results in there on these fights.

  3. #23
    I know it isn't a perfect example, but Method used 3 hunters on Zor'lok HC.
    Fights like Zor'Lok I think personally think we are completely fine on, we aren't as squishy as others (all raiddamage is physical) deterrence is great, we do a lot of damage while moving through the bullet hell.
    Honestly I think we could do with some small number buffs, but obsolete is going a little far imo.
    Last edited by Woobels; 2012-11-09 at 01:31 AM.

  4. #24
    The only fights i was outdpsed by mages are cleave fights like Ston Guard but it doesn't really matter since we're the best on tiles (an even if i'm not on tiles i can do pretty decent dps with SV). On most single target fights I compete with locks for the top 3 places while we're very good on movement fights (and we'll be even better after 5.1). On Garalo we're bad, yeah, but it's one fight, we're still good kiters (my guild uses ranged dps as kiters on 25N) so as long as i'm fulfiling my raid role I'm happy.

    Seriously, we're not FotM but we're not as horribly awful as some people in these forums think. My only problem is our bad dps on cleave fights but you can't have all i guess.

  5. #25
    Stood in the Fire Daieon's Avatar
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    It sucks that when trying to make melee AND ranged feel viable for a raid tier they end up making one sided encounters. I think Hunters are doing ok as we are now, but we could use some buffs. While I found Garalon a little interesting, as I have most of this tier, it feels awful to think about really competing and knowing that my class would just be sat on a certain fight because we're really bad for cleaving, or the fight is more melee friendly than usual.

  6. #26
    Well the biggest problem with Garalon is that it isn't just a melee favoured fight, he's a heavily rogue favoured one, and this can lead to class stacking. If all the melee would do roughly the same damage it will be fine as you could say that melee=dps, ranged=kiting for this boss. In this state Garalon is problematic I agree.

    In general there are 11 classes that can dps in the game, some will be top, some mid and some bot. What's important imo is to feel that you have a fair chance to compete for a top 5 spot, and i can say that for most of the fights I've done so far I got that feeling, so I'm pretty ok with the PVE state of hunters atm.

  7. #27
    Lack of any decent cleave ability is the biggest problem by far. Easy solution would be to make Kill command a cleave... but that's too obvious so it wont happen. Other annoyances are all pet pathing issues and the fact that pets don't get any benefit from certain encounter mechanics in the same way a player does (Stone guards and Garalon).

    I'm still using a 463 bow and unfortunately I can see myself getting benched on our heroic wote attemps this week. Ok sure I have plenty of CC especially if I go Survival and have entrapment. I can also take 2 sparks at once without taking damage with deterrence but the damage I can put out against a multi dotter or cleave class is just pathetic and all the CC in the world might not be enough to make up for that as even without me the raid has enough CC to cope especially if stuff dies faster without my presence.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-09 at 02:40 AM ----------

    [/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Either you over gear everyone else or you out skill them because in a 25m (which I assume you do since you said warlocks and dks) you as a hunter shouldn't be top, you should still be able to compete on the dps meters but you really shouldn't be top unless it is a heavy AoE fight or ranged-favored-heavy-movement-fight.

    This however doesn't mean hunters are shit, absolutely not, we got amazing AoE, we got bunch of other things that might not be super mega awesome but can still make a fight easier such as kiting tools to high heavens and MD and feign death, deterrence, we can in a 10m bring more or less any buff missing.
    We have terrible aoe if we are BM
    Last edited by Paulosio; 2012-11-09 at 02:40 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    I know it isn't a perfect example, but Method used 3 hunters on Zor'lok HC.
    Fights like Zor'Lok I think personally think we are completely fine on, we aren't as squishy as others (all raiddamage is physical) deterrence is great, we do a lot of damage while moving through the bullet hell.
    Honestly I think we could do with some small number buffs, but obsolete is going a little far imo.
    That's because (brace yourself) hunters are absolutly amazing for Zor'lok with our mobility, due to the discs. Being able to sustain +90K dps through the disc phase, along with the heavy burst BM has for the Echo is just awesome.
    Note that I haven't gotten into last phase yet, but I assume we're just as good there.

  9. #29
    You can say dps doesn't matter as much as you want but it'll be wrong as long as their are fights that require high dps output.
    You have to judge dps by the numbers they can pull if you want to be a *serious* raider/raiding guild, It doesn't matter if the person has the best voice on vent or can tap dance, If they can't bring the numbers it doesn't matter.

    Back in the old days you could get away with 75% damage if you could dodge every single death effect in a raid, because percentages you'd catch up.
    But these days when side stepping out of the huge glowy noise alerted effect is required raiding for hard mode, Then staying alive is just part of your toolset.
    I used to care that my main has so many 310% mounts, and other rare ground mounts.. But without account wide achievements its worth nothing. :/
    Panda-mon seems to be the latest grab for money, Make sure if you still play your voice is heard if it matters to you, Mine wasn't.

  10. #30
    One problem blizzard has is that they nerf something that is good in one area but don't compensate for it to make up for the dmg loss elsewhere. I wish they wouldn't keep this annoying philosophy that spells need to be the same in pvp as in pve. Why can't they just make the spells act differently against players then against monsters etc? Don't they see that it's basicly impossible to balance?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    One problem blizzard has is that they nerf something that is good in one area but don't compensate for it to make up for the dmg loss elsewhere. I wish they wouldn't keep this annoying philosophy that spells need to be the same in pvp as in pve. Why can't they just make the spells act differently against players then against monsters etc? Don't they see that it's basicly impossible to balance?
    i think its more along the lines that they don't care anymore

    Blizzard is the WOST game maker i have seen when it comes to admiting they messed up. They were told back in beta stampede was going to be a problem and that it wasn't working with resiliance. It took more tehn 6 weeks into live for them to admit what they had been getting told for months, but it wasn't until AFTER they made balance changes around a bugged ability that they admited that it was busted.

    Hunters right now are barely middle of the pack in terms of DPS and we are LOSING damage. The sheer insult to the players is that hunter "burst" is out of control when it is less then multiple other classes, as well as sustained from the same classes. It MIGHT get better in t15, but we have to be allowed to do t14 in order to get to t15 content.

    Just tonight on Amber Shaper a rogue in my guild was commenting on how he was doing nearly double damage on the monstrocity as others when he has blade flurry on and was able to cleave multple targets.

    Most clases have a cleave, yet hunters have deplorable multiple target damage. In massive AoE we are decent but still behind other classes that beat us in single target. If our muti target damage is slow then we should have superior single target, get we are inferior to many other classes that do both cleave and single target better.

    The "utility" that hunter have will quicly be over shadowed when the fact other classes can do the same jobs while doing better damage. Garalon is a great example of that, we are great kiters, but when we can;t pull as good of numbers as a lock or a mage doing and we get shafted by mechanics because of pets while not kiting. Blizzard needs to compeltely re-do their outlook on hunters. The balance of the game is way off, i don't see how they can claim the hunter class is fine when mages and warriors have higher bust higher sustained and far superior cleave. Hell mages locks and warriors all do pretty much everything hunters can do but do it better with less skill required.

  12. #32
    On any fight that has the possibility of cleaves (like garalon or say stone guard) hunters are in a hopeless position compared to other classes. I think we can all agree to that. On single target fights however they are lowish but not unplayable.

    I further agree that PvE hunters got fucked by PvP. That's how it always goes.

    As to topping the meters on fights. As WoL shows if you compare similarly skilled / geared people then hunters will currently lose to mages/locks/spriest (not by a HUGE margin but consistantly) even in single target fights in MV.

    Data for HoF is still unconclusive (imo) but yea for something like H garalon, hunters will be sat for quite a while.
    Last edited by gend; 2012-11-09 at 10:13 AM.

  13. #33
    i just want to hear why its ok for mages to have a great cleave high burst and top end sustained and a hunter is OP for having weaker burst no cleave ans weaker sustained.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    i just want to hear why its ok for mages to have a great cleave high burst and top end sustained and a hunter is OP for having weaker burst no cleave ans weaker sustained.
    Cos GC is a mage thats why. Its not the first time mages have had it good is it?

  15. #35
    Dreadlord Ashe-Arathor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    there is no fight that a mage cannot out do a hunter while putting in half the effort. That is the root of the problem. In PvP mage burst is better then hunter burst but its OK because they are mages that is the issue. Hunters get one ability that is strong and BUGGED now that class has to endure a crapton of nerfs breaking abilties and we are supposed to like it because they are removing fox...
    I made peace with the fact mages are the "master class" in World of Warcraft a long time ago.
    Once you get used to the fact Blizzard just love mages and refuse to balance them properly, I found I just enjoy the game more.
    "I CAN USE MYSELF AS A BLOCK" - Mike B aka Fony, Platforming Master

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    I like how Hunters are terrible in DPS compared to other classes, and they buff our clunkiest, most stupid spec with some "bandaid" fixes that won't help the DPS as the spec is a Fustercluck to play already, AiS should hit for way more or have focus cost reduced, where's the fun in AiS when it is barely viable during Rapid Fire.

    Mages have always been overpowered, every fucking tier, they are the top DPS class, in PvP they are always the FotM class. And they don't even have to deal with pets not getting encounter specific damage increases(Hi Garalon!).

    It's just disheartening that even though I am the top DPS almost every time in our raids, I know I am #1 because the others are worse in skill. Skill should pay off, just because someone masters a class completely, shouldn't mean that they are still in the middle of DPS meters because their class sucks overall and almost every class can(and will) do better. Wind Lord was an AoE fight, Hunters were supposed to be good at AoE, looking at WoL(SV), we currently beat 7 out of the 23 classes, the 7 that we beat are known to have very poor AoE(except for Boomkins, which are limited since they can't use Starfall for AoE :x).

    /rant end

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    You're pretty bad if you sat yourself on Garalon, seeing as hunters are by far the best kiters, and can put up the most damage of any DPS kiter.
    A well played mage will absolutely rape a hunter while kiting garalon.

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
    A well played mage will absolutely rape a hunter while kiting garalon.
    Yep, Our mage has to kite and he is usually just behind the cleave group(5th/6th in DPS).

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    they are not OP in PvP. They had a bugged mechanic which was fixed, and if you fought anyone even remotely intelligent stampege was useless. It is very very easy to stop stampede. However if you a basement dwelling neckbeard stampede was impossible to deal with. I'm sorry making a class bottom of the barrel for PvP because of bad players being too lazy or stupid to figure out how easy stampede is to counter is not how to balance the game.

    Right now in PvP warrior and mages both have better burst and control then hunters, in PvE their sustained damage SINGLE target is superior to hunters and far easier to manage, and their multi target DPS is greatly superior to hunter because they can cleave.

    So to recap

    Mages sustained > hunter
    Mages burst > Hunters
    Mages control > hunters
    Warrior sustained > hunter
    Warrior burst > hunter
    Warrior control > hunters

    Hunters = OP but mages and warriors are fine. If you do not see the problem in that then you must be a mage or warrior, either that or you are a "huntard"
    And we're the only class getting constantly hotfixed while Warrior and Mage continue their PvP dominance.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    What a load of horsecrap, on all our gara'jal hc kills i've been either #1 or #2 on the dmg meter of all who stays up, and we only send our locks and dks down with healers.
    So the majority of DPS are up.
    Same on Fenq, or well, when the aoe phase comes we're fucked but i still managed to end up at place #5.
    In HoF i've come out #1 on the first boss both kills, same on the last one.
    Sure, this is only 4 of 12 bosses but still.
    In most of the other fights we're in the middle, exept on Garalon and Stone guards were multi dotters and rogues are sick.
    u do know that @ garajal ya dps meter is fucked up :O

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