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  1. #1

    Demonology: Stat weights

    Reading a few threads on these subforums are making me scratch my head for a bit.

    I'm used to using simulators like Simcraft etc. and so far it has always been telling me that the following stats are the best to worst:
    - Hit (to cap)
    - Int
    - Mastery (best stat)
    - Crit
    - Haste

    Yet several of the threads I'm reading here are ... telling me that it should be this instead:
    - Hit (to cap)
    - Int
    - Haste
    - Crit
    - Mastery (worst stat)

    Obviously I've ran Simcraft several times to get these numbers, but this doesn't seem to add up with either this forum or Icy Veins (Icy veins too seems to say to stack mastery, while Simcraft and EJ forums seems to disagree). What the fuck is going on then? o_O

  2. #2
    Stat weights vary a lot depending on gear; there are certain points where Haste will dip in value but overall as I've been simming as I've been gearing, 'Hit to cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery' has pretty much exclusively been the output and reforges that have simmed best. Even when Haste has dipped (notably after the Doom, 3038, and Corruption, 4717, break points) it has been very quick to gain in value and come top again.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Reading a few threads on these subforums are making me scratch my head for a bit.

    I'm used to using simulators like Simcraft etc. and so far it has always been telling me that the following stats are the best to worst:
    - Hit (to cap)
    - Int
    - Mastery (best stat)
    - Crit
    - Haste

    Yet several of the threads I'm reading here are ... telling me that it should be this instead:
    - Hit (to cap)
    - Int
    - Haste
    - Crit
    - Mastery (worst stat)

    Obviously I've ran Simcraft several times to get these numbers, but this doesn't seem to add up with either this forum or Icy Veins (Icy veins too seems to say to stack mastery, while Simcraft and EJ forums seems to disagree). What the fuck is going on then? o_O
    Tell me about it! I'm having the same issue! the problem is with the gear level at the moment no one stat is miles ahead of the others and it really does vary depending on your gear, any changes to gear and my stat priority can change totally! Also they are generally all within each others error brackets on simcraft as well so that doesn't help matters. I've generally been going with: Hit to cap > Haste to 3038 > mastery > crit, as my gear gets better i'll probably reforge to get to 4717 haste and then see what comes up best between crit and mastery, I hope in the next tier as gear gets better and has higher numbers on it, it becomes clearer which one is better!

  4. #4
    Mechagnome darkminaz's Avatar
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    i stayed till ilvl 480 at haste till 3036 (doom) -> mastery > crit
    now i went to 4717 haste > mastery (around 4k) > crit
    just because my mastery was at 5-6k

    probably if i ever get the 2t bonus (just because the boss is dead and i use bonus roll, and go to sha since release doesn't mean it actualy drops -.-) 4717 becomes way more important since it pushes corr

    so i would stick till you get 480 ilvl at doom cap and after that go to the corr cap if it's realy the way to go .. i don't know actualy know but that way it is easy to switch to affli and back without going to reforge every time

  5. #5
    There was a similar thread on the wow forums asking if stacking haste was going to be better then stacking crit. I will tell you what I told them:

    For Demo - the stats surprisingly enough scale without plateauing pretty equally. This means that as long as you maintain a balance between haste, crit, and mastery it makes little difference which you choose as your highest. Below is a link to the plots I simmed last night. I wanted to see where haste or mastery would become better than crit, if ever. Just remember, even with 4k+ haste, SF and SB are both going to still have a 1.7+ cast time.

    http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/v...ghtscaling.png
    Crit does 3 things for us:
    It increases the damage Soul Fire does.
    Doom Crits give us imps.
    Increases crit chance on SB and ToC.

    As others have said, the weights will vary depending on your gear, but by and large as long as you maintain a balance between the 3, there really is little difference between them.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    There was a similar thread on the wow forums asking if stacking haste was going to be better then stacking crit. I will tell you what I told them:



    Crit does 3 things for us:
    It increases the damage Soul Fire does.
    Doom Crits give us imps.
    Increases crit chance on SB and ToC.

    As others have said, the weights will vary depending on your gear, but by and large as long as you maintain a balance between the 3, there really is little difference between them.
    Thanks. From that graph I can only conclude that keeping all 3 stats at approximately the same level is overall the best... such is the synergy of stats after all, the more you have of the other, the more a single point of the current can improve your DPS.

    This also seems to match and explain my SimCraft results after having played around with it for a time.

    So the new stats weights become:
    Int > Hit (to cap) > Haste (to soft caps 3040, 4780) > Haste = Mastery = Crit (keep all 3 close to eachother as much as possible)

  7. #7
    My most recent gear set up spat out hit>mastery>crit>haste. Now that was the order but they were all very close being within .2 of each other.

  8. #8
    I also have mine simmed out reading Hit > Mastery > Crit > Haste.

    How important are the Haste breakpoints? I'm not really sure how to sim what my gear would be WITH the breakpoints and without, any advice there?

  9. #9
    Simming your current gear gives you the stat weights for that set of gear. This means the best weights for that current set. If you plug those weights into a website like AskMrRobot or wowreforge, those sites will give you the best possible reforges/gems/enchants for that gear set.

    The best way to sim your character with a haste threshold and without would be to use AskMrRobot. I cannot for the life of me get Chardev to work with simcraft, and even if you could get it to import a profile, if you don't already have an account with chardev it is nearly impossible to create one.

    So basically just load your toon up in AskMrRobot, edit the weights so that haste is the highest weighted stat below int and sp, and has a threshold (soft cap) of 0.1665 (16.65% haste or 4717 haste rating with the raid buff, 7078 without) or whatever threshold you are going for (see below), and optimize your gear (dont worry about actually reforging, just optimize it). Next click the "Export" button and choose simcraft as the export option, and sim those reforges and compare that to your current gear. I went a bit more in-depth on how to actually do this with AskMrRobot in this thread.

    Haste thresholds for HoG, Corruption and Hellfire/Harvest Life can be found here.
    Haste thresholds for Doom are sadly left out of those but according to a thread on the official eu warlock forums these are the haste thresholds for Doom:
    ~3036 (2585 for Goblins) for an extra tick on Doom, which is about 12.50%. According to the Spreadsheet You would need 5312 haste without the 5% raid buff to hit 12.50%

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    Simming your current gear gives you the stat weights for that set of gear. This means the best weights for that current set. If you plug those weights into a website like AskMrRobot or wowreforge, those sites will give you the best possible reforges/gems/enchants for that gear set.

    The best way to sim your character with a haste threshold and without would be to use AskMrRobot. I cannot for the life of me get Chardev to work with simcraft, and even if you could get it to import a profile, if you don't already have an account with chardev it is nearly impossible to create one.

    So basically just load your toon up in AskMrRobot, edit the weights so that haste is the highest weighted stat below int and sp, and has a threshold (soft cap) of 0.1665 (16.65% haste or 4717 haste rating with the raid buff, 7078 without) or whatever threshold you are going for (see below), and optimize your gear (dont worry about actually reforging, just optimize it). Next click the "Export" button and choose simcraft as the export option, and sim those reforges and compare that to your current gear. I went a bit more in-depth on how to actually do this with AskMrRobot in this thread.

    Haste thresholds for HoG, Corruption and Hellfire/Harvest Life can be found here.
    Haste thresholds for Doom are sadly left out of those but according to a thread on the official eu warlock forums these are the haste thresholds for Doom:
    ~3036 (2585 for Goblins) for an extra tick on Doom, which is about 12.50%. According to the Spreadsheet You would need 5312 haste without the 5% raid buff to hit 12.50%
    Excellent, thank you!

  11. #11
    Ok, I have been using simcraft for a while now, but it just seems out of whack to me. Like after reading everybody posts on stats, and how to keep things close between crit/hast/mastery looking at the top demo parses, Simcraft is telling me to reforge to all haste all the time. Like currently I have 4720 haste/5690 mastery/2250 crit, and my scale factors at Haste 2.31, mastery 1.53, crit, 1.51. So its telling me to reforge more haste, is this correct? Is that correct about the Doom tick rate? maybe thats the reason it wants more haste

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lichanator View Post
    Ok, I have been using simcraft for a while now, but it just seems out of whack to me. Like after reading everybody posts on stats, and how to keep things close between crit/hast/mastery looking at the top demo parses, Simcraft is telling me to reforge to all haste all the time. Like currently I have 4720 haste/5690 mastery/2250 crit, and my scale factors at Haste 2.31, mastery 1.53, crit, 1.51. So its telling me to reforge more haste, is this correct? Is that correct about the Doom tick rate? maybe thats the reason it wants more haste
    I have no idea what could cause this but if I could offer this thought: It might be that you would gain more DPS from Haste IF (big IF) you could get that haste by NOT reforging it away from Mastery. A similar thing happened to me with Affliction. My profile wanted me to go for more haste, but as soon as I took it away from Mastery my results dipped slightly.

    Best thing would be to reforge some of you mastery to Haste, and see what your dps does. If it goes up, well, perfect, add more haste then, if it goes down reforge it back to mastery.

    Report back with what you found, interesting for the rest of us to know.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by lichanator View Post
    Ok, I have been using simcraft for a while now, but it just seems out of whack to me. Like after reading everybody posts on stats, and how to keep things close between crit/hast/mastery looking at the top demo parses, Simcraft is telling me to reforge to all haste all the time. Like currently I have 4720 haste/5690 mastery/2250 crit, and my scale factors at Haste 2.31, mastery 1.53, crit, 1.51. So its telling me to reforge more haste, is this correct? Is that correct about the Doom tick rate? maybe thats the reason it wants more haste
    If you want to find out why, sim your character and use plots. To do this:
    Under options go to Plots and check the following: Plot Int, SP, Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery.

    I am not sure why it would have you getting more haste past 4717 that high above the other stats. If there is a threshold there, plotting these figures will let you know where Haste dips back down.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    If you want to find out why, sim your character and use plots. To do this:
    Under options go to Plots and check the following: Plot Int, SP, Hit, Haste, Crit, Mastery.

    I am not sure why it would have you getting more haste past 4717 that high above the other stats. If there is a threshold there, plotting these figures will let you know where Haste dips back down.
    I checked on this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...xZmFYa0E#gid=7

    I didn't see any thresholds near for lichanator, but I might have overlooked.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  15. #15
    At 25% (24.92% literally) you gain an extra tick from HoG. So at 19.92% haste with the raid buff, you would gain an extra tick. Not only that, but the faster our ticks tick, the more fury/sec we gain. I am thinking it might be the fury per second.

    *Whats extremely weird, is that it is doing almost the same thing for me. I have almost 5500 haste rating from gear, which is just about 13% before raid buffs.

    I will post a plot graph for my gear once I get it.

  16. #16
    The next HoG breakponit is nearly over 8 thousand haste.... how the hell do you have that much while not losing the other stats? xD

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 08:51 AM ----------

    also i went with hit>int>mastery>crit>haste until i get my 2set bonus

  17. #17
    http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/v...tevmastery.png
    http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/v...hastevcrit.png
    http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/v...itvmastery.png

    I resized them and removed the other stats that we already know values of (Int/SP/Hit). Looking at both of these, it appears with my next few pieces of gear upgrades haste is going to tank in weight compared to crit, and it looks the same for mastery, but it looks like mastery will still scale below crit for quite a while.

    It seems by these results, there really is no threshold where haste's value drops off significantly compared to the other stats. I am assuming this is because of fury generation, but I don't have the math skill set to confirm that.

  18. #18
    ^^^why doesnt simcraft work for me even though i downloaded 505.5?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 09:19 AM ----------

    http://http://us.battle.net/wow/en/c...ihilare/simple

    my armory if someone could simcraft my lock

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    you could get that haste by NOT reforging it away from Mastery. A similar thing happened to me with Affliction. My profile wanted me to go for more haste, but as soon as I took it away from Mastery my results dipped slightly.

    Best thing would be to reforge some of you mastery to Haste, and see what your dps does. If it goes up, well, perfect, add more haste then, if it goes down reforge it back to mastery.

    Report back with what you found, interesting for the rest of us to know.
    Well, using wow reforge I can get 5300 haste and 5100 mastery. to get more haste I have to use it from the mastery. I'll sim that and post results.

    Another question is, I am not using 320 gems in any of my blue/yellow sockets. Has anyone tested swapping out the 80int/160 mastery for the straight 320 mastery/haste gems?. I don't want to do this because the simple fact that Int scales higher then mastery/haste.

    Is there a haste breakpoints for Doom, or is it the same as corruption? I cant see it anywhere on the Google charts posted in this thread.[


    OK so I reforged to 5200 haste and 5180 mastery, and gained 600dps, scale factors were still pretty much the same, so I then ran a plot from Mastery > Haste and haste >mastery, results were as follows for 1000 reforge

    I cant get the chart to post in here, but haste was a big step forward in reforging another 1000 haste from mastery was 600 more dps, it went from 93426 dps, to 94018 dps, reforging 1000 haste to mastery was 400 dps loss.

    So at current stats of 6157 haste/4100 mastery/2377 crit, was the higest I simmed at. I ran the reforge plots at these stats and interesting results were 1000 haste to mastery was no gain whatsoever, it seemed to plateau out at around 6000 haste, for me anyways
    Last edited by lichanator; 2012-11-12 at 10:58 PM.

  20. #20
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...DVWhOLWc#gid=0

    If u look at the top, in bis crit n haste both destroy mastery, so the reforging u did into mastery could be used elsewhere probably.

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