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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Silencer View Post
    What's your problem having King Varian Wrynn as a Leader of Alliance !?!? Too much shits craps talks were /pointed on alliance because we were hating orc's and making a thrall a big boss... The time of Humans have come finally !
    Having Orcs or Humans as an "overlord" for the rest of the non-human and orc races is stupid, at its core. Varian is the King of Stormwind, and the leader of humans. Non-human races are bowing their heads to him and calling him their king is just insulting when the Alliance is a *coalition* not an Empire. No one outside the US, for example, called Bush "their president" or even their leader when the coalition went into Afghanistan. Like I said, while the Horde leaders are all coming to their own, showing their conviction, wisdom and power in leading, Alliance leaders are proving to be inept, incompetent, or flatout stupid compared to the suddenly wise Varian who was, not more than a few years ago, a warmongering git. So now he's suddenly the wise king, and people like Jaina and Tyrande are angry, spoiled little fools who realise they are inept and bow their heads to Varian in subservience.

    Varian is negotiating peace and suddenly it's Jaina that's the one screwing over the deal. I really find it hard to believe that a 13000 year old spiritual leader needs lessons taught to her on patience from someone whose entire lifespan arguably amounts to less time than she has spent urinating throughout her 13 millennia of existence, especially from the guy who tried to sucker punch Thrall in Undercity.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-09 at 07:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    Did he say it was going to be in 5.1? I think he was talking about further down the line the alliance will get a good story, instead of just a story where they only stand around waiting to react to the horde.
    I was *certain* I read it was in 5.1 but I admit my memory isn't serving me perfectly for this.
    Last edited by Justignoreme; 2012-11-09 at 07:53 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Meh I'm surprised some people still haven't caught wind of the fact Varian will only be the head of the Alliance military and not politics. He is by no means becoming a blue Warchief, he is just stepping into Anduin Lothar's shoes.

    The problem is that Night Elves are still kinda getting shat on lore wise, this time by their own faction. If there was a reason for me to bitch and whine this time around it would be because we've only seen Humans get any real development, practically all Horde races and leaders are getting development in 5.1. The same cannot be said for the Alliance.
    The part that annoys me the most is how Horde leaders are being developed in a manner that would be more at home in the Alliance, that of leaders/races acting independently.
    The warchief is basically the same, all the horde races aren't controlled fully by the orcs, but the warchief does control the military actions. It's pretty much the same thing. All the horde races still maintain their independence and cultures, their lives aren't run by the warchief.

    The alliance has zero story outside of the war, so Varian is pretty much the end all be all of alliance lore. What are the dwarves doing? What are the gnomes, draenei, or worgen doing? What are any of the alliance races doing politically? We the night elves (and by night elves I mean only the shadow of Tyrande) are doing, they are continuing to be weak and incompetent and deferring control of their armies to the humans. The alliance needs to get a story in one of these patches, and not just "The horde did something, we need to do something!"

  3. #43
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I was *certain* I read it was in 5.1 but I admit my memory isn't serving me perfectly for this.
    I don't remember either. WTB Memory Pills or that Memory pool from Harry Potter.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  4. #44
    you would think tyrande being as old as she is would know a thing or two about patience
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    I hear people say bring War back to World of Warcraft, well how about bringing World back to World of Warcraft

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Its still proof that immortal beings are not perfect.
    That remark reminds me of a post by Arm over on SoL about Blizzards perfect human King idea:

    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...530#post569530

    Gotta dumb 'em down, don't ya know! Gotta revert to that old fantasy stereotype of humans being the balanced "chosen" race who's good at everything but not excessively great at any one thing while their non-human pals are each fundamentally incomplete embodiments of dangerously flawed extremes!

    So anyone important in the Alliance who's not a human gets smacked with spontaneous crippling deficiencies so that the well-rounded homo sapiens can show them all how to get things done the right way.

    He already schooled the worgen on their hunting turf. Now he shows the ten-thousand-year-old night elf army how to fight a war in the trees. Next he'll be showing the dwarves how to drink just the right way (wait, he already forced their current government upon a spontaneously mute and indifferent dwarf populace, didn't he?), and showing gnomes how to invent just the right way, and showing the draenei how to pray and fly the Exodar just the right way.

    Then they can all celebrate by renaming their capitals after variations on the name "Stormwind" and replacing every banner with the gold lion on a blue field. Because the Alliance is all about many varied races coming together for the common cause of preserving their respective nations...by conforming to the standards of a singular dominant race because the rest are all fundamentally "broken" and in need of human leadership to not completely screw up at every turn.

    You know, despite Stormwind consistently botching damned near everything they did for the entire time between the Third War and Varian's return. Yeah, those guys are totally on the ball and worthy of being the heart of the Alliance. I know when I look at the persistent Defias, Blackrock and gnoll threats in Stormwind's lands, my initial reaction is "hell yeah, the other races totally need that sort of stuff screwing their kingdoms up too."

  6. #46
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    The warchief is basically the same, all the horde races aren't controlled fully by the orcs, but the warchief does control the military actions. It's pretty much the same thing. All the horde races still maintain their independence and cultures, their lives aren't run by the warchief.
    No the position Warchief really isn't the same. It gives the Horde leader sovereignty over the other Horde races which is why the Horde is in such a dire position atm, he can do what he wants with them. He can pick and choose who joins the faction. To quote the WoW manual about Thrall and position of Warchief "He stands as warchief over the entire Horde, holding dominion over the Darkspear trolls and tauren tribes alike."
    This is why we always see so many advisor's and ambassadors surrounding the Warchief of the Horde, because his position commands more than just military strength. Yes their lives are very much run by the Warchief, it is why the Horde is in such disarray.


    The position of High King gives him command over the soldiers he is given. He cannot force his allies to give him soldiers and he holds no sovereignty over them. It is purely military unlike the position of Warchief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    The alliance has zero story outside of the war, so Varian is pretty much the end all be all of alliance lore. What are the dwarves doing? What are the gnomes, draenei, or worgen doing? What are any of the alliance races doing politically? We the night elves (and by night elves I mean only the shadow of Tyrande) are doing, they are continuing to be weak and incompetent and deferring control of their armies to the humans. The alliance needs to get a story in one of these patches, and not just "The horde did something, we need to do something!"
    We know Jaina is up to political shenanigans.
    The rest I do not know and as I mentioned is the one problem with the Alliance lore. It's just Humans with some silly Night Elf stuff to progress the Humans. Velen is apparently going to show which is nice. Brann is involved, although I'd love to see Muradin show up.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-09 at 08:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PlatedPriest View Post
    you would think tyrande being as old as she is would know a thing or two about patience
    The things is I can understand her lack of patience as she was always quick to act, the problem is that she is shown to have no plan what so ever and just wants to charge headlong at them without any prior thought.

    She's always been a little impatient, but never stupid.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mech View Post
    That remark reminds me of a post by Arm over on SoL about Blizzards perfect human King idea:

    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...530#post569530
    I am against "perfect humans" (perfect undead maybe), but I am also against elves being masters of all just because they were isolated for 10 000 years.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Mech View Post
    That remark reminds me of a post by Arm over on SoL about Blizzards perfect human King idea:

    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...530#post569530
    I find that post spot on. Don't forget, the Pandaren now have a thing or two to learn from Varian about harmony and balance, and the defeated Orcs at the end of this expansion will learn how to control their anger, just as he learned.

  9. #49
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mech View Post
    That remark reminds me of a post by Arm over on SoL about Blizzards perfect human King idea:

    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...530#post569530
    Yeah that kinda sums things up nicely.
    In fact when the problems the Alliance has are put into one essay like post it really makes me feel like it would be a good time to go from blue to red.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-11-09 at 08:27 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    I am against "perfect humans" (perfect undead maybe), but I am also against elves being masters of all just because they were isolated for 10 000 years.
    So am I. I don't want Elves lording over other races, I want them left alone, but they should be a race others turn to for advice about the world since their lifetimes, even confined to Kalimdor, afford them experience with everything under the sun and moon. Elves should be the masters of what they specialise in: which is warfare, mastery of nature, and holding the wisdom of beings whom have lived thousands of years, versus thousands of hours...
    As it stands they are the masters of nothing, and chronic failures.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    So am I. I don't want Elves lording over other races, I want them left alone, but they should be a race others turn to for advice about the world since their lifetimes, even confined to Kalimdor, afford them experience with everything under the sun and moon. Elves should be the masters of what they specialise in: which is warfare, mastery of nature, and holding the wisdom of beings whom have lived thousands of years, versus thousands of hours...
    I still think that Warhammer 40k universe balanced it perfectly. Humans are racist bastards, elves are manipulative jerks and orks... WAAAAAGH!

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    I still think that Warhammer 40k universe balanced it perfectly. Humans are racist bastards, elves are manipulative jerks and orks... WAAAAAGH!
    That's too dark for my tastes personally

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    That's too dark for my tastes personally
    Its either dark or "humans are future". Pick your poison.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Its either dark or "humans are future". Pick your poison.
    Have WoW end in a fireball blaze of glory then xD

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mech View Post
    That remark reminds me of a post by Arm over on SoL about Blizzards perfect human King idea:

    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...530#post569530
    This is a perfect summary of the alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    No the position Warchief really isn't the same. It gives the Horde leader sovereignty over the other Horde races which is why the Horde is in such a dire position atm, he can do what he wants with them. He can pick and choose who joins the faction. To quote the WoW manual about Thrall and position of Warchief "He stands as warchief over the entire Horde, holding dominion over the Darkspear trolls and tauren tribes alike."
    This is why we always see so many advisor's and ambassadors surrounding the Warchief of the Horde, because his position commands more than just military strength. Yes their lives are very much run by the Warchief, it is why the Horde is in such disarray.
    The other horde races have always had their own story, it's not as if you see orcs all over thunderbluff. Sure Thrall saved the Tauren and Darkspear trolls from being wiped out (and the trolls mainly lived in Org prior to cataclysm), but their lives aren't run by the warchief, their armies are controlled by the warchief but you have to remember that the horde has been at war pretty much forever, so there wasn't really a time of peace for the WARchief to not exercise their power. It's the same thing. The only time you've seen any kind of exercised power during war time was when the factions inside undercity killed everyone at the wrathgate. Other than that the warchief seems to stay out of the business of the other races when it's not about war. The horde is in such disarray because Garrosh is just throwing away lives, and is doing anything to win.

    The position of High King gives him command over the soldiers he is given. He cannot force his allies to give him soldiers and he holds no sovereignty over them. It is purely military unlike the position of Warchief.
    Tyrande has just deferred control of her armies to Varian in that scenario, it's like Thrall saving the Tauren and Trolls, now they owe him so the warchief controls their armies. So they wrote Tyrande to be a complete idiot so Varian can have control of the night elves army. It's the same thing, except he's not ruling as aggressively as Garrosh.

    We know Jaina is up to political shenanigans.
    The rest I do not know and as I mentioned is the one problem with the Alliance lore. It's just Humans with some silly Night Elf stuff to progress the Humans. Velen is apparently going to show which is nice. Brann is involved, although I'd love to see Muradin show up.
    Well yeah we know the horde was able to get into Darnassus and make the night elves look incompetent yet again, so she has to remove the rogue faction from Dalaran. Other than humans though the other races seem to be nothing more than fodder, with no story other than to supply troops for Varian at this point.

  16. #56
    Stood in the Fire Knails's Avatar
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    I can't help but love Varian more and more everytime I see him. He's learned a lot, it's great seeing his character evolving like this.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Knails View Post
    I can't help but love Varian more and more everytime I see him. He's learned a lot, it's great seeing his character evolving like this.

    as long as they dont do to him what they did to thrall, i.e green jesus

    allies dont need a ....well a jesus

  18. #58
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    Haah! So the days of green jesus are over... bring on PONYTAIL JESUS!
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  19. #59
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I still think people are making too much of this 5.1 nonsense. You Elves....no wonder you guys don't have children. :-P
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  20. #60
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    The other horde races have always had their own story, it's not as if you see orcs all over thunderbluff. Sure Thrall saved the Tauren and Darkspear trolls from being wiped out (and the trolls mainly lived in Org prior to cataclysm), but their lives aren't run by the warchief, their armies are controlled by the warchief but you have to remember that the horde has been at war pretty much forever, so there wasn't really a time of peace for the WARchief to not exercise their power. It's the same thing. The only time you've seen any kind of exercised power during war time was when the factions inside undercity killed everyone at the wrathgate. Other than that the warchief seems to stay out of the business of the other races when it's not about war. The horde is in such disarray because Garrosh is just throwing away lives, and is doing anything to win.
    This isn't a matter of the tauren or Trolls having their own story, they can have their own despite the Warchief's power over them.
    There is nothing further to discuss about the powers of Warchief when official sources claim he has complete dominion over them. He commands and has the final say in everything Horde related - Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    Tyrande has just deferred control of her armies to Varian in that scenario, it's like Thrall saving the Tauren and Trolls, now they owe him so the warchief controls their armies. So they wrote Tyrande to be a complete idiot so Varian can have control of the night elves army. It's the same thing, except he's not ruling as aggressively as Garrosh.
    I'm confused as to what you're implying at the end and start of this with the Tauren, Trolls and the ending with Garrosh
    Yes Tyrande being an idiot to big up the idea of High King is bad, it's stupid how blood perfect the Humans are being portrayed as.

    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    Well yeah we know the horde was able to get into Darnassus and make the night elves look incompetent yet again, so she has to remove the rogue faction from Dalaran. Other than humans though the other races seem to be nothing more than fodder, with no story other than to supply troops for Varian at this point.
    Again this is the major problem with the Alliance story. When it's not Humans being perfect, it's the other races doing bugger all.

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