Thank you for the videos. I still find it really disturbing how Blizzard have turned Tyrande from a cunning, incredibly experienced leader into someone who has to bow to a guy with 20 years of military experience and anger issues. Why can't the Nightelves not suck at something in WoW for once?
Tyrande had a vision that the upcoming conflict should be led by a ghost wolf. Guess who the Ghost Wolf is?
God. She still sounds like Aggra in this expansion? What are they thinking? Also, anyone else notice that not only is she unusually tall even for a Nightelf now but she's beefy compared to all the guards?
Ya know what, I loved the Alliance because they were the faction of united races that weren't simply allied for convenience like the Horde, but because they simply knew being one force was better in times of peace and war and they had strong ties with each other because of it and didn't come together because one person demanded it, but because they all wanted to. It just doesn't feel like this anymore. It just feels like every race has a problem as of late that the Humans have to bail them out of and essentially babysit the other races in the Alliance.
As of late we have had Varian school the Dwarves on politics, Worgen on hunting and fighting as a pack, Night Elves on simply how to fight and how to defend their own land, Jaina on patience, meanwhile his son schooled the freaking Prophet of the Draenei on the value of life. I liked the idea of Varian becoming more level headed and of his son being a new hope, but they seem to have used all the other Alliance's races wrongs to make this clear.
I'm sorry for whining but this whole debacle with Tyrande has got under my skin.
Last edited by Scummer; 2012-11-09 at 11:39 PM.
Ya, she can, as an independent ally give aid to the Alliance properly, but to come out with less strategic brains than Garrosh is really pathetic. Garrosh, the "brilliant" one who abandons escort duty to go blindside the Alliance and gets it destroyed. She comes off as a dumbass. Not marginally, completely.
---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 12:07 AM ----------
The whole "trials of the High King" concept had great potential, but it feels like they're already throwing it away.
I saw it as a chance for Varian to interact with the other racial leaders, learning from each of them and better balancing his experience and knowledge so in the end, he'd have a better understanding of all members of the Alliance, how best to use them in the war against the Horde, and how best to lead from a tactical military approach. He should also be Supreme Commander in homage to Lothar instead of "high king" particularly since that's what Metzen has said the High King position is supposed to be.
Instead, we're just jumping straight into "Varian knows best."
It's still a step up from the past where we got either completely stomped or no development at all, but the Horde is still definitely getting the more interesting developments. However, if the next expansion is indeed a new battle with the Burning Legion, we could see the Alliance at the forefront with Anduin leading amidst the Army of Light, Velen surely at center stage, and expectedly Turallyon and Alleria's return.
Last edited by Faroth; 2012-11-10 at 12:26 AM.
"There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."
Can I ask, why is it demeaning for Tyrande to learn a thing or two from Varian but it's ok if it's Varian who's the flawed one who has to learn to be a better leader from the likes of Tyrande or Magni? I feel like other people have a supremacist notion over the human race because they're generic and younger and thus must be flawed which people will advocate but they don't want their own favored race to be flawed. I don't mean this in any antagonistic way, but it's hypocritical don't you think? Humans according to lore has always been the guys who are able to adapt to situations. That's their special snowflake trait. In here Varian adapts and learns from his mistakes from his past experiences with Garrosh. As for Tyrande's brashness, well Tyrande has had evidence of being decisive in her history. It ended up being a mistake but it was a reasonable mistake to make. As Drek'nar said:
Last edited by Sports72Xtrm; 2012-11-10 at 01:05 AM.
Varian's lines say "There was a time when I would have done the same, but I've learned a lot over the years". We're supposed to believe that Varian has learned more about warfare in dense woodland in a few years than Tyrande has in ten thousand. It's just bad storytelling.
Literally, there isn't any life lesson a 70 year old needs taught from a 10 year old, and the scale between 13000 year old Tyrande and 45? year old varian is enormous. if Tyrande were say, 50 years old, sure...
Varian was not present when the humans, orcs, and night elves allied on Kalimdor. Sometime within the next 5 years, he was captured, his mind was magically sundered into two halves. He was borderline split personality with severe mood swings until 1-2 years ago and has only recently fully regained who he was once. Granted, he has the blessing of Goldrinn on his side and his natural instincts, but what does he know of the kal'dorei? Of the draenei? Until after the Third War, the gnomes weren't exactly closely intertwined with the Alliance due to internal conflicts, so how much can Varian truly know of them?
That's what we want to see. We want to see Varian learn about his allies, learn from their cultural perspectives, their strengths, their weaknesses, and learn how to best meld them into a cohesive unit by learning from each part to make it function as a whole. I've not suggested Varian needs to learn from them so much as about them and how best to fit them together as a single unit. Wouldn't that make for a more intriguing plot than Varian adapting to the absence of mistakes from his experiences with Garrosh?I feel like other people have a supremacist notion over the human race because they're generic and younger and thus must be flawed which people will advocate but they don't want their own favored race to be flawed. I don't mean this in any antagonistic way, but it's hypocritical don't you think? Humans according to lore has always been the guys who are able to adapt to situations. That's their special snowflake trait. In here Varian adapts and learns from his mistakes from his past experiences with Garrosh.
Honestly, his past encounters with Garrosh have been
1. Halted by Rhonin
2. Separated by a falling magnataur where Varian, empowered by Goldrinn, was winning
That's it. Varian has had no other encounters with Garrosh. His ship was wrecked by a kraken in Tides of War, preventing him from having much chance to act in the battle.
Varian's development is going in the right direction, but we've skipped a lot of the progressive development and arrived at the conclusion with no input from his allies.
Tyrande - Impatient, brash, and headstrong to rush into a trap that would have cost lives
Council of Three Hammers - No relevance since they were put in place by Varian
Mekkatorque - Not visible since failing to reclaim Gnomeregan
Velen - No relevance since the Sunwell, but called upon by Varian in the coming patch it seems
Greymane - Absolutely no involvement whatsoever
Varian, Jaina, and Anduin are the focal points of the Alliance story, wholly and completely.
Vol'jin - Reclaimed Echo Isles for his people, prominent role in the coming patch, scenario to himself, likely the one who will lead the rebellion against Garrosh
Sylvannas - Spotlight in Cataclysm and said to have an impact on the events through MoP before it ends
Baine - Major figure in Tides of War and The Shattering, but has been quiet in-game
Lorth'emar - About to make a huge splash in 5.1 being involved in a scenario in Dalaran it seems
Thrall - Returning to the Horde in a sense, kicking the Kok'ron of Garrosh's off Echo Isles and taking up leadership of the Darkspear in Vol'jin's absence
Rexxar - Has been stated to be involved in the plot leading up and perhaps during the Siege of Orgrimmar
Garrosh - Multiple appearances in Cataclysm and will be a focal point of MoP, obviously, as he continues to outwit and outmaneuver the Alliance until a final show down. Completely outsmarted and outmaneuvered the night elves tactically in multiple battles on their home turf in Ashenvale.
It's a much more diverse swath of characters being developed for the Horde while the Alliance leaders' chance to shine as individuals contributing to Varian bringing them together as one is being squandered.
Don't get me wrong, I like the way things are developing, but I see a lot of lost opportunities as well.
"There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."
In the scenario, you see Varian utilizing the technology prowess of the gnomes and the water magic of the jinyu. He has shown his resourcefulness and his understanding of the strengths of other races.
And Wolfheart details Varian's tempering of his savage instincts through undergoing the worgen ritual. He's learned to be patient. Tyrande hasn't been leading a campaign against an enemy for a long time, let alone having those of other races under her command. Varian is more up to date with his experience in leading the Alliance against the Lich King and the Horde.
Last edited by Sports72Xtrm; 2012-11-10 at 01:43 AM.
Not really. The First War was what? 50 years prior to present? Thats as long as they've been in any major wars. Their conflicts with each other and the trolls from their ancient history to before that point arguably pales in comparison to the War of the Shifting Sands.Humanity has been at war in modern times longer than Tyrande.
Cannons* and their glaive throwers are highly effective and incredibly destructive, not to mention who needs a cannon when you can call the mountain an entire artillery division is camped upon up for battle (stone giants). Aside from that Humans aren't high tech, anything they use Night Elves use, swords, bows, maces, axes, etc. As for their skills, their practical skills far exceed that of humanity. Night Elves could survive anywhere as they are far better hunters, gatherers, trackers and can blend in to land, use it to their advantage and call upon nature and their Goddess for power and healing... and it was built up as a force to be reckoned with.They've faught the orcs longer, they're skills, technology, and strategies are more up to date. For example, the night elves don't even use canons in this quest http://www.wowpedia.org/Questo_Yourself_a_Favor
because Night Elves aren't resourceful either? Cause they clearly don't utilise new magics and technology? One thing I notice from Varian's own dialogue is he completely leaves out any mention of what the night elves can do and have done; it's like he's another ignoramus and his allies of 10 years are still "strange elves living in a tree". The Night Elves mastery over nature and the ability to weave wood, stone as well as work the most exotic of metals and even magic motorised vehicles (yes, glaive throwers drone with an engine, check Astranaar) and yet he doesnt even recognise them. Nor the Draenei for that matter... and they were on a bloody space shipIn the scenario, you see Varian utilizing the technology prowess of the gnomes and the water magic of the jinyu. He's shown his resourcefulness.
Um, she orchestrated the entire defense of Hyjal during the Third War. That was her strategy, her efforts, she told the humans and orcs where to go, what to do, how things were gona be fought and how to lay a trap. You'd think she'd be able to recognise an ambush, all Night Elves should it is exactly a primary tactic of their military...And Wolfheart details Varian's tempering of his savage instincts through undergoing the worgen ritual. He's learned to be patient. Tyrande hasn't been leading a campaign against an enemy for a long time.
Again, this is just poor writing. Varian is new to leading AND strategy, he didn't even fight in the third war, something everyone else is a veteran of. Suddenly, he's on top of everything and knows better than anyone? It's like a first year student at West Point telling Eisenhower how to run strategy in WWII... Thats exactly the comparison...Varian is more up to date with leading the Alliance against the Lich King and the Horde.
Last edited by Justignoreme; 2012-11-10 at 01:45 AM.
As for shoot first, ask later: It's already been explained, a dozen times, that they didn't attack the Warsong clan on a whim, they heard the stories about the orcs being a legion vanguard, Cenarius smelled fel taint on them and it was with his approval the Sentinels launched a campaign against the "defiliers". It wasn't "shoot first, ask questions later". When Grom drank Mannoroth's blood he effectively proved Cenarius' suspicions right, they were a proxy of the Legion. Cenarius and a few sentinel regiments were outright slaughtered by the chaos orc warsong clan.