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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    I still think people are making too much of this 5.1 nonsense. You Elves....no wonder you guys don't have children. :-P
    It's not 5.1 alone, it's 5.1 on top of Cataclysm, Malfurion, "Hush Tyrande", lolWolfheart, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Again this is the major problem with the Alliance story. When it's not Humans being perfect, it's the other races doing bugger all.
    exactly this. When humans aren't perfect the other races are doing nothing or showing how much worse things could've been compared to humans.

  2. #62
    Thank you for the videos. I still find it really disturbing how Blizzard have turned Tyrande from a cunning, incredibly experienced leader into someone who has to bow to a guy with 20 years of military experience and anger issues. Why can't the Nightelves not suck at something in WoW for once?

  3. #63
    Tyrande had a vision that the upcoming conflict should be led by a ghost wolf. Guess who the Ghost Wolf is?

  4. #64
    God. She still sounds like Aggra in this expansion? What are they thinking? Also, anyone else notice that not only is she unusually tall even for a Nightelf now but she's beefy compared to all the guards?
    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.
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    RIP Sweet Prince...

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    Tyrande had a vision that the upcoming conflict should be led by a ghost wolf. Guess who the Ghost Wolf is?
    Indeedy. She's been told by Elune that Varian is the man to follow, but it whining when he tells her to fight in a way she wouldn't. Go figure.

    Ya know what, I loved the Alliance because they were the faction of united races that weren't simply allied for convenience like the Horde, but because they simply knew being one force was better in times of peace and war and they had strong ties with each other because of it and didn't come together because one person demanded it, but because they all wanted to. It just doesn't feel like this anymore. It just feels like every race has a problem as of late that the Humans have to bail them out of and essentially babysit the other races in the Alliance.

    As of late we have had Varian school the Dwarves on politics, Worgen on hunting and fighting as a pack, Night Elves on simply how to fight and how to defend their own land, Jaina on patience, meanwhile his son schooled the freaking Prophet of the Draenei on the value of life. I liked the idea of Varian becoming more level headed and of his son being a new hope, but they seem to have used all the other Alliance's races wrongs to make this clear.

    I'm sorry for whining but this whole debacle with Tyrande has got under my skin.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-11-09 at 11:39 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    Tyrande had a vision that the upcoming conflict should be led by a ghost wolf. Guess who the Ghost Wolf is?
    How it's handled is pretty piss poor.
    Ya, she can, as an independent ally give aid to the Alliance properly, but to come out with less strategic brains than Garrosh is really pathetic. Garrosh, the "brilliant" one who abandons escort duty to go blindside the Alliance and gets it destroyed. She comes off as a dumbass. Not marginally, completely.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 12:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    God. She still sounds like Aggra in this expansion? What are they thinking? Also, anyone else notice that not only is she unusually tall even for a Nightelf now but she's beefy compared to all the guards?
    All leaders are much taller than their representative races. She's not beefier though, her model is the exact same proportions as playable night elf women, just scaled up.

  7. #67
    The whole "trials of the High King" concept had great potential, but it feels like they're already throwing it away.

    I saw it as a chance for Varian to interact with the other racial leaders, learning from each of them and better balancing his experience and knowledge so in the end, he'd have a better understanding of all members of the Alliance, how best to use them in the war against the Horde, and how best to lead from a tactical military approach. He should also be Supreme Commander in homage to Lothar instead of "high king" particularly since that's what Metzen has said the High King position is supposed to be.

    Instead, we're just jumping straight into "Varian knows best."

    It's still a step up from the past where we got either completely stomped or no development at all, but the Horde is still definitely getting the more interesting developments. However, if the next expansion is indeed a new battle with the Burning Legion, we could see the Alliance at the forefront with Anduin leading amidst the Army of Light, Velen surely at center stage, and expectedly Turallyon and Alleria's return.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2012-11-10 at 12:26 AM.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Instead, we're just jumping straight into "Varian knows best."
    Fast forward to Varian wearing 1950s attire, smoking a pipe and reading a newspaper at the table while Tyrande wears a June Cleaver outfit and calls the Alliance family in for dinner that she's made. And here come 3 freshfaced little tykes: Velen, Muradin and Gelbin all gathering around the table asking Varian for advice with everything from their homework to handling bulles. And the happy family dog, Greymane barks for table scraps, wagging his tail happily. Isn't it swell...

    *gags*

  9. #69
    Can I ask, why is it demeaning for Tyrande to learn a thing or two from Varian but it's ok if it's Varian who's the flawed one who has to learn to be a better leader from the likes of Tyrande or Magni? I feel like other people have a supremacist notion over the human race because they're generic and younger and thus must be flawed which people will advocate but they don't want their own favored race to be flawed. I don't mean this in any antagonistic way, but it's hypocritical don't you think? Humans according to lore has always been the guys who are able to adapt to situations. That's their special snowflake trait. In here Varian adapts and learns from his mistakes from his past experiences with Garrosh. As for Tyrande's brashness, well Tyrande has had evidence of being decisive in her history. It ended up being a mistake but it was a reasonable mistake to make. As Drek'nar said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    which is great and all since it works out (I think, idk how it turns out)
    Im just saying Varian saying wait and see can just as easily have been the wrong decision

    Its easy to look back on history and laugh at people for making decisions that didnt work out too well
    But at the moment those decisions were made, things are not so clear
    From a storytelling view point I see it like this: the Alliance must act as one to defeat the Horde, that's the whole storyline. But many leaders of the Alliance as well as the Alliance players have different notions on what is the best strategy to use and the Alliance players are very vocal that their favorite race's leader should know best. So how do they prop up a leader of the Alliance as competent and worthy of his title with out demeaning the other leaders' dignity? If Varian is to "learn" to be the leader of the Alliance from the other Alliance leaders, then why is he the leader in the first place? In a way, shouldn't leadership imply that he should surpass his followers in some way? Even if you say the Alliance shouldn't have a leader, well a united Horde would still defeat a splintered Alliance.
    Last edited by Sports72Xtrm; 2012-11-10 at 01:05 AM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
    Can I ask, why is it demeaning for Tyrande to learn a thing or two from Varian but it's ok if it's Varian who's the flawed one who has to learn to be a better leader from the likes of Tyrande or Magni?
    It's not so much "demeaning" as "nonsensical".

    Varian's lines say "There was a time when I would have done the same, but I've learned a lot over the years". We're supposed to believe that Varian has learned more about warfare in dense woodland in a few years than Tyrande has in ten thousand. It's just bad storytelling.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    It's not so much "demeaning" as "nonsensical".

    Varian's lines say "There was a time when I would have done the same, but I've learned a lot over the years". We're supposed to believe that Varian has learned more about warfare in dense woodland in a few years than Tyrande has in ten thousand. It's just bad storytelling.
    Exactly. It's as if everything elves knew, learned, understood, and were capable of doing was completely forgotten when assfurion destroyed Nordrassil.

    Literally, there isn't any life lesson a 70 year old needs taught from a 10 year old, and the scale between 13000 year old Tyrande and 45? year old varian is enormous. if Tyrande were say, 50 years old, sure...

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
    Can I ask, why is it demeaning for Tyrande to learn a thing or two from Varian but it's ok if it's Varian who's the flawed one who has to learn to be a better leader from the likes of Tyrande or Magni?
    Well, Tyrande has been the leader of her people, both in battles and spiritually, for thousands of years. She is practically the avatar of Elune on Azeroth. She has faced the Burning Legion, she has made decisions in the heat of battle, she has given orders against satyrs, she has protected her lands successfully and brilliantly for 10,000 years. She has been allies with the Alliance members since the first day the alliance was forged.

    Varian was not present when the humans, orcs, and night elves allied on Kalimdor. Sometime within the next 5 years, he was captured, his mind was magically sundered into two halves. He was borderline split personality with severe mood swings until 1-2 years ago and has only recently fully regained who he was once. Granted, he has the blessing of Goldrinn on his side and his natural instincts, but what does he know of the kal'dorei? Of the draenei? Until after the Third War, the gnomes weren't exactly closely intertwined with the Alliance due to internal conflicts, so how much can Varian truly know of them?

    I feel like other people have a supremacist notion over the human race because they're generic and younger and thus must be flawed which people will advocate but they don't want their own favored race to be flawed. I don't mean this in any antagonistic way, but it's hypocritical don't you think? Humans according to lore has always been the guys who are able to adapt to situations. That's their special snowflake trait. In here Varian adapts and learns from his mistakes from his past experiences with Garrosh.
    That's what we want to see. We want to see Varian learn about his allies, learn from their cultural perspectives, their strengths, their weaknesses, and learn how to best meld them into a cohesive unit by learning from each part to make it function as a whole. I've not suggested Varian needs to learn from them so much as about them and how best to fit them together as a single unit. Wouldn't that make for a more intriguing plot than Varian adapting to the absence of mistakes from his experiences with Garrosh?

    Honestly, his past encounters with Garrosh have been
    1. Halted by Rhonin
    2. Separated by a falling magnataur where Varian, empowered by Goldrinn, was winning

    That's it. Varian has had no other encounters with Garrosh. His ship was wrecked by a kraken in Tides of War, preventing him from having much chance to act in the battle.

    Varian's development is going in the right direction, but we've skipped a lot of the progressive development and arrived at the conclusion with no input from his allies.

    Tyrande - Impatient, brash, and headstrong to rush into a trap that would have cost lives
    Council of Three Hammers - No relevance since they were put in place by Varian
    Mekkatorque - Not visible since failing to reclaim Gnomeregan
    Velen - No relevance since the Sunwell, but called upon by Varian in the coming patch it seems
    Greymane - Absolutely no involvement whatsoever

    Varian, Jaina, and Anduin are the focal points of the Alliance story, wholly and completely.

    The Horde?
    Vol'jin - Reclaimed Echo Isles for his people, prominent role in the coming patch, scenario to himself, likely the one who will lead the rebellion against Garrosh
    Sylvannas - Spotlight in Cataclysm and said to have an impact on the events through MoP before it ends
    Baine - Major figure in Tides of War and The Shattering, but has been quiet in-game
    Lorth'emar - About to make a huge splash in 5.1 being involved in a scenario in Dalaran it seems
    Thrall - Returning to the Horde in a sense, kicking the Kok'ron of Garrosh's off Echo Isles and taking up leadership of the Darkspear in Vol'jin's absence
    Rexxar - Has been stated to be involved in the plot leading up and perhaps during the Siege of Orgrimmar
    Garrosh - Multiple appearances in Cataclysm and will be a focal point of MoP, obviously, as he continues to outwit and outmaneuver the Alliance until a final show down. Completely outsmarted and outmaneuvered the night elves tactically in multiple battles on their home turf in Ashenvale.

    It's a much more diverse swath of characters being developed for the Horde while the Alliance leaders' chance to shine as individuals contributing to Varian bringing them together as one is being squandered.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the way things are developing, but I see a lot of lost opportunities as well.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    It's not so much "demeaning" as "nonsensical".

    Varian's lines say "There was a time when I would have done the same, but I've learned a lot over the years". We're supposed to believe that Varian has learned more about warfare in dense woodland in a few years than Tyrande has in ten thousand. It's just bad storytelling.
    To be honest, imo, her old age is more of a flaw than a asset. The night elves have spent years in seclusion in Kalimdor in relative peace. Their big war, the War of the Ancients, was as you said 10000 years ago. Humanity has been at war in modern times longer than Tyrande. They've faught the orcs longer, they're skills, technology, and strategies are more up to date. For example, the night elves don't even use canons in this quest http://www.wowpedia.org/Questo_Yourself_a_Favor
    In the scenario, you see Varian utilizing the technology prowess of the gnomes and the water magic of the jinyu. He has shown his resourcefulness and his understanding of the strengths of other races.

    And Wolfheart details Varian's tempering of his savage instincts through undergoing the worgen ritual. He's learned to be patient. Tyrande hasn't been leading a campaign against an enemy for a long time, let alone having those of other races under her command. Varian is more up to date with his experience in leading the Alliance against the Lich King and the Horde.
    Last edited by Sports72Xtrm; 2012-11-10 at 01:43 AM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    Tyrande had a vision that the upcoming conflict should be led by a ghost wolf. Guess who the Ghost Wolf is?
    Well, wait. I get that that's supposed to be Varian in the context, but... really? Because I would think that Tyrande -- whose people have now, twice, fought with the aid and guidance if not outright leadership of the totally literal Ghost Wolf -- would probably assume that such a vision would be a clue to enlist the help of the actual Goldrinn/Lo'gosh. Right?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Sports72Xtrm View Post
    To be honest, imo, her old age is more of a flaw than a asset. The night elves have spent years in seclusion in Kalimdor in relative peace. Their big war, the War of the Ancients, was as you said 10000 years ago.
    If you disregard the War of the Satyr, the War of the Shifting Sands, the Third War and countless other implied, but not detailed police actions during the Long Vigil, then you can make this claim. But then you'd be disregarding major events.

    Humanity has been at war in modern times longer than Tyrande.
    Not really. The First War was what? 50 years prior to present? Thats as long as they've been in any major wars. Their conflicts with each other and the trolls from their ancient history to before that point arguably pales in comparison to the War of the Shifting Sands.

    They've faught the orcs longer, they're skills, technology, and strategies are more up to date. For example, the night elves don't even use canons in this quest http://www.wowpedia.org/Questo_Yourself_a_Favor
    Cannons* and their glaive throwers are highly effective and incredibly destructive, not to mention who needs a cannon when you can call the mountain an entire artillery division is camped upon up for battle (stone giants). Aside from that Humans aren't high tech, anything they use Night Elves use, swords, bows, maces, axes, etc. As for their skills, their practical skills far exceed that of humanity. Night Elves could survive anywhere as they are far better hunters, gatherers, trackers and can blend in to land, use it to their advantage and call upon nature and their Goddess for power and healing... and it was built up as a force to be reckoned with.

    In the scenario, you see Varian utilizing the technology prowess of the gnomes and the water magic of the jinyu. He's shown his resourcefulness.
    because Night Elves aren't resourceful either? Cause they clearly don't utilise new magics and technology? One thing I notice from Varian's own dialogue is he completely leaves out any mention of what the night elves can do and have done; it's like he's another ignoramus and his allies of 10 years are still "strange elves living in a tree". The Night Elves mastery over nature and the ability to weave wood, stone as well as work the most exotic of metals and even magic motorised vehicles (yes, glaive throwers drone with an engine, check Astranaar) and yet he doesnt even recognise them. Nor the Draenei for that matter... and they were on a bloody space ship

    And Wolfheart details Varian's tempering of his savage instincts through undergoing the worgen ritual. He's learned to be patient. Tyrande hasn't been leading a campaign against an enemy for a long time.
    Um, she orchestrated the entire defense of Hyjal during the Third War. That was her strategy, her efforts, she told the humans and orcs where to go, what to do, how things were gona be fought and how to lay a trap. You'd think she'd be able to recognise an ambush, all Night Elves should it is exactly a primary tactic of their military...
    Varian is more up to date with leading the Alliance against the Lich King and the Horde.
    Again, this is just poor writing. Varian is new to leading AND strategy, he didn't even fight in the third war, something everyone else is a veteran of. Suddenly, he's on top of everything and knows better than anyone? It's like a first year student at West Point telling Eisenhower how to run strategy in WWII... Thats exactly the comparison...
    Last edited by Justignoreme; 2012-11-10 at 01:45 AM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Quote snip
    I just wanted to leave my two cents on how I saw the lore. I'll just leave it as we both have different opinions on the lore between humans and night elves.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    If you disregard the War of the Satyr, the War of the Shifting Sands, the Third War and countless other implied, but not detailed police actions during the Long Vigil, then you can make this claim. But then you'd be disregarding major events.

    Not really. The First War was what? 50 years prior to present? Thats as long as they've been in any major wars. Their conflicts with each other and the trolls from their ancient history to before that point arguably pales in comparison to the War of the Shifting Sands.

    Cannons* and their glaive throwers are highly effective and incredibly destructive, not to mention who needs a cannon when you can call the mountain an entire artillery division is camped upon up for battle (stone giants). Aside from that Humans aren't high tech, anything they use Night Elves use, swords, bows, maces, axes, etc. As for their skills, their practical skills far exceed that of humanity. Night Elves could survive anywhere as they are far better hunters, gatherers, trackers and can blend in to land, use it to their advantage and call upon nature and their Goddess for power and healing... and it was built up as a force to be reckoned with.

    because Night Elves aren't resourceful either? Cause they clearly don't utilise new magics and technology? One thing I notice from Varian's own dialogue is he completely leaves out any mention of what the night elves can do and have done; it's like he's another ignoramus and his allies of 10 years are still "strange elves living in a tree". The Night Elves mastery over nature and the ability to weave wood, stone as well as work the most exotic of metals and even magic motorised vehicles (yes, glaive throwers drone with an engine, check Astranaar) and yet he doesnt even recognise them. Nor the Draenei for that matter... and they were on a bloody space ship

    Um, she orchestrated the entire defense of Hyjal during the Third War. That was her strategy, her efforts, she told the humans and orcs where to go, what to do, how things were gona be fought and how to lay a trap. You'd think she'd be able to recognise an ambush, all Night Elves should it is exactly a primary tactic of their military...
    Again, this is just poor writing. Varian is new to leading AND strategy, he didn't even fight in the third war, something everyone else is a veteran of. Suddenly, he's on top of everything and knows better than anyone? It's like a first year student at West Point telling Eisenhower how to run strategy in WWII... Thats exactly the comparison...
    Wasn't that Jaina's idea at the end of WC 3? In WC 3 the NElfs seemed to have a 'kill first ask questions later' attitude as well, at least I think Tyrande did. It's been a while I need to play it again.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Wasn't that Jaina's idea at the end of WC 3? In WC 3 the NElfs seemed to have a 'kill first ask questions later' attitude as well, at least I think Tyrande did. It's been a while I need to play it again.
    Tyrande was the strategic mind behind it, Jaina played her role leading Alliance forces, and Tyrande assigned Pained to guard Jaina, keep her safe, and possibly learn more about humans from her.

    As for shoot first, ask later: It's already been explained, a dozen times, that they didn't attack the Warsong clan on a whim, they heard the stories about the orcs being a legion vanguard, Cenarius smelled fel taint on them and it was with his approval the Sentinels launched a campaign against the "defiliers". It wasn't "shoot first, ask questions later". When Grom drank Mannoroth's blood he effectively proved Cenarius' suspicions right, they were a proxy of the Legion. Cenarius and a few sentinel regiments were outright slaughtered by the chaos orc warsong clan.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Tyrande was the strategic mind behind it, Jaina played her role leading Alliance forces, and Tyrande assigned Pained to guard Jaina, keep her safe, and possibly learn more about humans from her.

    As for shoot first, ask later: It's already been explained, a dozen times, that they didn't attack the Warsong clan on a whim, they heard the stories about the orcs being a legion vanguard, Cenarius smelled fel taint on them and it was with his approval the Sentinels launched a campaign against the "defiliers". It wasn't "shoot first, ask questions later". When Grom drank Mannoroth's blood he effectively proved Cenarius' suspicions right, they were a proxy of the Legion. Cenarius and a few sentinel regiments were outright slaughtered by the chaos orc warsong clan.
    I recall Tyrande saying to Jaina "Your plan is a bold one girl. Perhaps we have misjudged your race." I'll need to go redo that mission to be sure though, but I recall the idea of the Horde and Alliance delaying Archimonde coming from Jaina.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    I recall Tyrande saying to Jaina "Your plan is a bold one girl. Perhaps we have misjudged your race." I'll need to go redo that mission to be sure though, but I recall the idea of the Horde and Alliance delaying Archimonde coming from Jaina.
    Perhaps, but that merely adds in to the already existing plans of defending Hyjal which Tyrande laid out. It's two good ideas coming together.

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