Horde's opinion: Garrosh

[Inahu]

My option for the poll wasn't there: "I loathe Garrosh, because despite having the potential to be a really awesome character (Grom Hellscream's son!), he's been terribly mishandled, turning out to be nothing but a rash, insolent blowhard who has learned nothing from the past - neither his own, nor the Orcs in general."

[Nindoriel]

My option for the poll wasn't there: "I loathe Garrosh, because despite having the potential to be a really awesome character (Grom Hellscream's son!), he's been terribly mishandled, turning out to be nothing but a rash, insolent blowhard who has learned nothing from the past - neither his own, nor the Orcs in general."

You mean just like Grom?

[Damdwarf]

Gamon for Warcheif!

[Florena]

You mean just like Grom?

But...but Grom had a brief moment of clarity where he made up for all the bad things he did by killing Mannoroth and dying! There's actually a quote from a book I'm reading that I'll paraphrase here.

"Do you believe that when a man has spent a lifetime doing evil, but does something good with his last moments, that makes up for it all?"

*Character thinks for a moment, then replies* "No."

"Neither do I." *Proceeds to then go and die nobly after a lifetime of wickedness*

[Nindoriel]

But...but Grom had a brief moment of clarity where he made up for all the bad things he did by killing Mannoroth and dying! There's actually a quote from a book I'm reading that I'll paraphrase here.

"Do you believe that when a man has spent a lifetime doing evil, but does something good with his last moments, that makes up for it all?"

*Character thinks for a moment, then replies* "No."

"Neither do I." *Proceeds to then go and die nobly after a lifetime of wickedness*

That sounds familiar, which book is it?
Totally agree that Grom redeemed himself in the end, just pointing out that Garrosh is a lot like his father. We'll see if he redeems himself too.

[Florena]

That sounds familiar, which book is it?
Totally agree that Grom redeemed himself in the end, just pointing out that Garrosh is a lot like his father. We'll see if he redeems himself too.

Well the quote actually raises the question of whether a noble final act can redeem all the evil in one's life, and the answer given is 'no, it doesn't.' Not sure I 100% agree with this perspective, but it adds an interesting topic to characters like Grom and Darth Vader. Does that final act of sacrifice really redeem them?

The book is The Black Prism, first in Brent Week's Lightbringer trilogy. But I've only just started reading it, and I'm sore other books have raised that question long before this one.

[keksplace]

The problem with peace hippies like Trask and other guys who think garrosh is evuul (omg hes evull... damn) is that they are not guys of competition.
Theres no sweeter thing than to have a 2400 player at your feet lying defeated in the arena.... make him an alliance player and its 10 times better.
Theres no sweeter thing than to break you dirrect guild opponent, make that alliance guild and its 10 times better.
Theres no sweeter thing than to break your opponent on the dps meter!

Garrosh is a competitive guy (lorewise) and thats why i like him, his father Grom Hellscream was eager to crush anyone who would be so mad to stand in his way, thats why he is one of my favorite characters.

Trask and other "horde" dudes you are not competitive and you forget Horde's main WARCALL: "Victory or Death!"

True Horde players know what im talking about!

[Trassk]

Well the quote actually raises the question of whether a noble final act can redeem all the evil in one's life, and the answer given is 'no, it doesn't.' Not sure I 100% agree with this perspective, but it adds an interesting topic to characters like Grom and Darth Vader. Does that final act of sacrifice really redeem them?

The book is The Black Prism, first in Brent Week's Lightbringer trilogy. But I've only just started reading it, and I'm sore other books have raised that question long before this one.

It shows they have a level of decency hidden deep inside them. Does it as you say redeem there actions and a lifetime of wickedness? No, the conclusion isn't a black and white scenario.

If you could lump characters into different containers, ones like Thrall, Anduin, Malfurion and Baine go in one on the left, characters like old gods, the legion and twilight hammer in another on the right, and then theres an assortment of other containers, some held more to the left, some held more to the right.

---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 07:45 PM ----------

The problem with peace hippies like Trask and other guys who think garrosh is evuul (omg hes evull... damn) is that they are not guys of competition.
Theres no sweeter thing than to have a 2400 player at your feet lying defeated in the arena.... make him an alliance player and its 10 times better.
Theres no sweeter thing than to break you dirrect guild opponent, make that alliance guild and its 10 times better.
Theres no sweeter thing than to break you opponent on the dps meter!

Garrosh is a competitive guy (lorewise) and thats why i like him, his father Grom Hellscream was eager to crush anyone who would be so mad to stand in his way, thats why he is one of my favorite characters.

Trask and other "horde" dudes you are not competitive and you forget Horde's main WARCALL: "Victory or Death!"

First off, you pretty ignorant if you fail to understand what I've been saying all though this.
Second, you purposely ignore what so many have pointed out about why Garrosh is such a bad character, and yet you think his faults are interesting because it appeals you some negative perception of how you view things.

You have a one dimensional way of looking at the horde, its history, the mistakes of its past. but then you probably never will understand why those mistakes of the past were relevant.

[keksplace]

It shows they have a level of decency hidden deep inside them. Does it as you say redeem there actions and a lifetime of wickedness? No, the conclusion isn't a black and white scenario.

If you could lump characters into different containers, ones like Thrall, Anduin, Malfurion and Baine go in one on the left, characters like old gods, the legion and twilight hammer in another on the right, and then theres an assortment of other containers, some held more to the left, some held more to the right.

---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 07:45 PM ----------



First off, you pretty ignorant if you fail to understand what I've been saying all though this.
Second, you purposely ignore what so many have pointed out about why Garrosh is such a bad character, and yet you think his faults are interesting because it appeals you some negative perception of how you view things.

You have a one dimensional way of looking at the horde, its history, the mistakes of its past. but then you probably never will understand why those mistakes of the past were relevant.

Tell me what mistakes of the past?
I tell you what mistakes... think about it.. would Grom Hellscream want to anihilate the night elves after their puny surprise attack on him? YES
Thrall would listen to him? NO

If hed listen with Cenarius broken down the night elves would have been surely at the peak of extinction? And we would defend Azeroth from BL without their weak assistance.



What other mistake? When humans were at the peak of extinction (along with dwarves because they were allied) at the hands of Doomhammer? When Gul'dan betrayed the Horde (god damn what luck... like winning the lottery)?

What other mistake? When draeneis were at peak of extinction on Draenor? When Velen (probably the character you like) was piss-scared of Gul'dan?
When Gul'dan could destroy Velens entire puny race in one spell (like he destroyed the arrakoa)?


Alliance can thank Elune or w/e stupid gods they have, that Gul'dan was not loyal to the Horde... for alliance was no more now.

[Mails-Prowers]

Keksplace you still fail to get it through your thick skull. THE 95% OF THE POPULATION of Warcraft are peace hippies as you call them. Do you understand that you, Dreknar, Carpenter, Raubez and many others I remember are the minority and you will never have what you want because every game doesn't work like you think it works. In the case of Warcraft the Horde were the aggressors and the war they want to do with Azeroth cannot be won. It's not the Alliance only. All of the Neutral Factions are Alliance Based. Their mission is to protect Azeroth from every threat. You need to understand that the Horde will eventually lose everything like they did in the Second War.

Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. And in your case it's gonna be fun turning your Warchief into Muffins and all you followers into Cupcakes in the Siege of Orgrimmar.

[keksplace]

Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. And in your case it's gonna be fun turning your Warchief into Muffins and all you followers into Cupcakes in the Siege of Orgrimmar.

I wish id have the chance to oppose, and see how you would turn me into cupcake, youd need to call the other 24 of your so called raiders to bring me down pup.
If you would come alone, you could consider me a BOSS.

[Immitis]

If it's that "I won't let my people starve in the desert" thing, I don't buy it. It's never even been established that his people are starving in the desert. Seems like one of the writers was just pulling an excuse for his dickery out of their ass.

i remember someone who was also evil using that excuse... hmmm who could it be... OH YEAH GANONDORF THE DEMON KING @_@

[Pesthos]

In mmo's i usualy detach myself from major npc's. why? Due to game mechanics they are impossible to appreciate as a whole, they are always vulnerable to silly twists or to serve as lore bandage or even to satisfy players whims (plus to many writers). Its not like Vader or let's say Aragorn. Even if their story wasn't planned since the bigining, they always had a consistent progression trough their existence. I find mmo's to volatile lore speaking. just my 2 cents =)

[Flaks]

In mmo's i usualy detach myself from major npc's. why? Due to game mechanics they are impossible to appreciate as a whole, they are always vulnerable to silly twists or to serve as lore bandage or even to satisfy players whims (plus to many writers). Its not like Vader or let's say Aragorn. Even if their story wasn't planned since the bigining, they always had a consistent progression trough their existence. I find mmo's to volatile lore speaking. just my 2 cents =)

Very good point. Most characters developed in WoW have very choppy story telling with little to no coherency to how they came to where they are and where they're from. I think the ONLY exception to this is Anduin.

[Haven]

[QUOTE=grisset;19050943]What advances are you talking about? Segregating all the "inferior" races in Orgrimmar? Starting a war for no reason with enemies he can't defeat? Starving the citizens to use resources on war machines? Allying with warmongering former enemies?[COLOR="red"]
Uhm, you missed, like, the entire Cataclysm story and a great deal of novels. All wars are fought for resources. Garrosh didn't want his people to sit and die in barren Durotar, Horde needed land and whatever that land could provide. Cataclysm made everything scarce, hence battle for lumber and food in Ashenvale, battles in Barrens with the advancing Alliance. Learn your lore, this was explained a thousand times at the start of Cataclysm.

By "inferior" races you might mean those who openly hinder and weaken the Horde (trolls). I wonder what song would they sing if human fleet would land further north - to Echo Isles instead of Theramore and Northwatch Hold.

Enemies he couldn't defeat? Are you talking of Alliance which does nothing both in game and novels but get beaten by Horde, causing Alliance audience to rightfully enrage? We, the players, know that Horde and Alliance are both undefeatable because it's a game about their eternal conflict. The characters of the game don't know that.

Starving the citizens to build war machines? Show me the examples. Especially war machines made of food.

[KrazyK923]

Oh you can like such a character I have no issue with that. Its just when people try to justify that kind of behavour as normal and one that should be an example to others is when it crosses the line.

Hell, I like yogg Saron and the Lich king as villians, but you wouldn't get me saying shit like 'he's to misunderstood he just wants to take care of the undead', alright, I accept a bad guy for what he/she is, I don't try to sugar coat it.

And thats exactly what Garrosh fans are doing now, they are attempting to sugarcoat his bad ways because they think its fun to act like that.

Again. This is a game.

[Trassk]

Again. This is a game.

If your going to keep saying that on threads where people are discussing lore, then its nobody elses problem but your own.

[Immitis]

Again. This is a game.

this is no mere game my kind sir... THIS! IS! WARCRAFT!!!!!!! ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

[KrazyK923]

If your going to keep saying that on threads where people are discussing lore, then its nobody elses problem but your own.

No, you're belittling people who enjoy a game and its lore because they disagree with you.

[Schaden]

Very good point. Most characters developed in WoW have very choppy story telling with little to no coherency to how they came to where they are and where they're from. I think the ONLY exception to this is Anduin.

Its also a limitation of the medium. Books and movies are very passive things. We read/observe the events that have been pre-scripted, we get to have first person views and thoughts. But since we are immersed in the story itself, we don't get that kind of insight, it has to be delivered in a different way. If anything, I think Garrosh suffers from missing bridges in his characterization, particularly from post-Wrath to Cataclysm and his time after Thrall told him that Grom died a hero.