Poll: Is Garrosh a suitable Leader?

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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Manifest Destiny......remember how that worked out?

    Why does he want to become a superpower? Who dsnt? What leader wldnt want their nation to become stronger and more powerful.
    That worked because we used manipulation and not all out war. When we fought, we fought a vastly out numbered and out gunned force. Garrosh is marching blindly into war with an enemy who out numbers him and slightly ahead on technology.

    Making your country stronger is great, but not at the expense of your people and other nations to do it.
    If there's one thing World of Warcraft players hate more than people who don't play, it's people that do play but not as much as them.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by grisset View Post
    That worked because we used manipulation and not all out war. When we fought, we fought a vastly out numbered and out gunned force. Garrosh is marching blindly into war with an enemy who out numbers him and slightly ahead on technology.

    Making your country stronger is great, but not at the expense of your people and other nations to do it.
    Well thats why Garrosh is becoming more and more unstable and using more dangerous and powerful weapons in order to achieve victory.

    Every war means your people have to sacrifice, all the more means to do anything to win, or else all that sacrifice earns you jack shit

    Thats basically what war is, one nation trying to gain something at the expense of another nation. And why should the Horde care about the Alliance? They are as much enemies of the Horde as the Legion or Scourge
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  3. #143
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    Garrosh is a great War General but unfortunately Generals generally don't make good leaders. He's too aggressive doesn't have wisdom or vision, he rules with and only respects strength and power.

    I really don't mind being at war, my problem is when I chose the Horde it was because they seemed to me more right, the good guys if you will, the alliance appeared arrogant and I quite liked taking there faces off. Garrosh seems to have changed our roles, were now the arrogant ones and the alliance seem more level headed, I believe that a good leader can make his people believe what there doing is right even if its not.

    Also the world isn't split into good an evil Jaina for example was an alliance good guy someone that wasn't arrogant i liked, Garrosh lost me when he turned her against the Horde. He also didnt do himself any favours when he went all Nazi on his own faction, specially as the Orcs were my least liked horde race.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nezex View Post
    specially as the Orcs were my least liked horde race.
    =0

    How bout you come here and say that to my Axes
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Manifest Destiny......remember how that worked out?
    Manifest destiny had a lot of help from hand of fate (and a lot of broken treaties where the Native Americans were so clearly lied to and suckered). If not for smallpox, Europeans would've *never* been able to gain a foothold in the new world. They couldn't bring the muscle it took to take on strong nations in the East which held wealth, power, and resources. That's also the reality of history. No one *ever* ruled the entire world. Western history likes to make big deals out of Rome and Greece, the reality is their nations were not "the whole world" or even a majority of it, their armies weren't invincible, and they always had rivals which they rarely went to war with because it would ruin them. For all of Rome's power and might they mastered the art of dominating broken, in-fighting tribal nations, they never went head-to-head with the giant next door in Persia, nor did they even try to sail for India or China.

    Why does he want to become a superpower? Who dsnt? What leader wldnt want their nation to become stronger and more powerful.
    Leaders that don't want to mire their nations endlessly in wars which kill their citizens, make enemies all over, and drain resources, wills, and diminish whatever prosperity may have started at the beginning of their campaign.

    But Thrall didnt really press for it.
    Garrosh turned it from border skirmishes to full scale invasion.

    And apprantly Ashenvele is the best place to harvest resources, since it was the only thing the Horde leaders could think of in the meeting during the Shattering
    They wanted lumber, but not from their friends in Lordaeron, not from whatever Druidic magic the Tauren demonstrated they knew to grow and repair structures without the need to harvest trees. They wanted to steal it from another country and were happy to send countless of their own to die in vain in Ashenvale. Cause that was the end result, they all threw their lives away, Warsong Lumberyard was destroyed, and though the blindsiding to the Night Elves was initially costly, the Orcs lost the entire campaign. And things like that are why countries don't endlessly wage war, even in Ancient and Medieval times, it was ALWAYS more beneficial to make trade agreements and mutually prosper and many nations, especially in the East during those times, rose to the top as the most powerful and wealthy nations in the world because of trade and the ability to defend their borders and trade routes from invasion, not invading other nations and ruining them. In our real world religion, over race, was a primary motivating factor for a lot of wars. Religion simply doesn't factor in to WoW, and for good reason.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    For all of Rome's power and might they mastered the art of dominating broken, in-fighting tribal nations, they never went head-to-head with the giant next door in Persia, nor did they even try to sail for India or China.
    .
    Rome actually beat the Parthian's asses a few times times

    And Rome defeated much more "civiliazed" opponents than random barbarians, but thats getting OT

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 02:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Leaders that don't want to mire their nations endlessly in wars which kill their citizens, make enemies all over, and drain resources, wills, and diminish whatever prosperity may have started at the beginning of their campaign.
    No they dont.

    Which is part of the reason Garrosh is becoming more and more desperate, and is becoming more willing to use whatever weapon and whatever means in order to gain an edge over the Alliance
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-11-10 at 02:27 AM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Rome actually beat the Parthian's asses a few times times
    and the Parthians also took a giant crap on the Romans, including decapitating an entire legion and capturing an arrogant emperor. Rome never secured any land in Persia for any amount of time, and vice-versa. To cite winning a few battles here and there as proof of their dominance is fallacy, they lost just as many.

    No they dont.
    Which is part of the reason Garrosh is becoming more and more desperate, and is becoming more willing to use whatever weapon and whatever means in order to gain an edge over the Alliance
    So genocide, slavery are acceptable means when desperate? Does he not realise that these are the things that will prevent his would be victims from granting mercy upon his people?
    Think Germany and Russia in WWII. Germans would rather murder a town full of Russian civilians than leave them be upon retreat. The favour was returned everywhere the Red Army showed up in Germany when the tide turned.

    Garrosh has already made his intentions clear when it comes to the fate of those he wants to capture. He would have them enslaved or murdered outright. Those people will *never* be loyal to him or his horde. again since WoW occurs in "real time" we don't see 100 years down the road, but even if Garrosh had succeeded in winning, you think his Horde would last? At the best it'd stay together until he kicked off, in which everyone would splinter back to their smaller nations like the real Horde of Genghis Khan. Also, that murdering bastard was also not invincible either, his armies met their match in Egypt, the Himalayas and Japan with spectacular defeats which he never tried to "reconsile". Further still his own kin and descended were ashamed and abhorred his reputation and legacy despite being in his family line.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Well thats why Garrosh is becoming more and more unstable and using more dangerous and powerful weapons in order to achieve victory.

    Every war means your people have to sacrifice, all the more means to do anything to win, or else all that sacrifice earns you jack shit

    Thats basically what war is, one nation trying to gain something at the expense of another nation. And why should the Horde care about the Alliance? They are as much enemies of the Horde as the Legion or Scourge
    Ah, the fundamental understanding between pro- and anti-Garrosh people. I think all arguments stem from the bolded, and I don't think there's any way to convince either side of the argument that their way is right.

    I see the Alliance as my enemy the way the United States sees China as their enemy.
    If there's one thing World of Warcraft players hate more than people who don't play, it's people that do play but not as much as them.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by grisset View Post
    I think all arguments stem from the bolded, and I don't think there's any way to convince either side of the argument that their way is right.
    .
    Hehe
    Every army believed God was on their side
    Every army believed they had right on their side

    And as George Carlin said, "Someones gonna be fucking dissapointed"

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 02:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by grisset View Post
    I see the Alliance as my enemy the way the United States sees China as their enemy.
    Yet when it comes to war and you need to kill them will you feel the same?

    Happens all the time in war. Both sides always try and demonize the other side, make them seem less like themselves.
    Because if we convince people they are not like us, it becomes easier to kill them

    As in Warcraft, in Tides of War, a buncha people wanted to object to Baine calling the Alliance races "people"
    And theres always places where humans or whatever refer to Horde races as beasts, monsters, or creatures

    Because if they were "people" they would be on our side right?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Hehe
    Every army believed God was on their side
    Every army believed they had right on their side

    And as George Carlin said, "Someones gonna be fucking dissapointed"

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 02:45 AM ----------


    Yet when it comes to war and you need to kill them will you feel the same?

    Happens all the time in war. Both sides always try and demonize the other side, make them seem less like themselves.
    Because if we convince people they are not like us, it becomes easier to kill them

    As in Warcraft, in Tides of War, a buncha people wanted to object to Baine calling the Alliance races "people"
    And theres always places where humans or whatever refer to Horde races as beasts, monsters, or creatures

    Because if they were "people" they would be on our side right?
    If it came to war with just cause, killing would indeed become necessary. The problem with Garrosh for me is that I don't see the war itself as necessary. There was no just cause in my eyes for us to attack the Alliance.

    Like I said, I see Allies as China. We don't see eye to eye on many issues, but it doesn't come to open hostility because of it.
    If there's one thing World of Warcraft players hate more than people who don't play, it's people that do play but not as much as them.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Happens all the time in war. Both sides always try and demonize the other side, make them seem less like themselves.
    Because if we convince people they are not like us, it becomes easier to kill them
    Garrosh is going far beyond "demonizing" Alliance races. He isn't saying "Orcs, the Alliance kills your babies, takes food off your table, and wants to enslave you" he says "the Alliance are weak, disgusting cowards that have no honour, paint the world red with their blood and you will be rewarded!"

    It's stark constrast, as the prior is laughable, the latter is vicious.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by grisset View Post
    War is about having something to fight for.
    Man, it's almost like that's the central theme of this expansion or something.

  13. #153
    Where's the option for "I hate his guts and can't wait for me and/or voljin to put him out of OUR misery!" ?

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden View Post
    Man, it's almost like that's the central theme of this expansion or something.
    i dont think so, both sides have reasons to fight

    To me its more about not why we fight, but how we fight.
    You can fight "normally" or in Metzen's own words "beat them so bad their grandparents would cry"

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 03:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorkle View Post
    Where's the option for "I hate his guts and can't wait for me and/or voljin to put him out of OUR misery!" ?
    I think thats option 2
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Was it Garrosh, who single-handedly built that city? And who says Thrall would not have done something similar. The city was destroyed, of course they would rebuilt it.
    This whole point is moot for that reason. We have no idea what Thrall would've done or how he would've proceeded with rebuilding Orgrimmar.

    They've been doing that for years, even before Garrosh came into the Horde. I've never really understood why they needed the lumber from Ashenvale so desperately. There are so many other places to chop lumber.
    Correct. Though lumber is needed, even in a city made of steel. Forges, cooking fires, troll structures, various war machines require lumber, such as the Demolishers that are so iconic for the Horde. Furniture, target dummies, crates, and the list goes on.

    Also, the closest other place to harvest lumber is Azshara (sparse woodlands, small trees, also being used by the Goblins), or....Ferelas and Ungoro. Ashenvale makes loads of sense.

    Actually that was me. I remember vividly how I went there on my Blood Elf mage and got the Dragonmaw to rejoin the Horde.Garrosh didn't do a damn thing.
    Seriously, though. It's one of those things, it's not really a big plan or a strategy that was there, it was just the Dragonmaw joined the Horde, the Wildhammer joined the Alliance. Just like with Blood Elves, Draenei, Taunka, Frostborn, Worgen, Goblins, Jinyu, Hozen.
    And his swim was due to him sending off his flank and guard and he paid the price for it.

    Taurajo was nothing compared to Theramore. What Garrosh did was use the races of the Horde for his war. He has send his soldiers into battle to die needlessly. He knew they were going to drop that bomb on that place anyway. What kind of leader just throws away the lifes of his soldiers like that.

    In Taurajo the Alliance didn't kill civilians and they actually punished the looters that went in there to plunder. The Alliance didn't drop a manabomb on that place to annihilate everything. It needed to be done to protect the Horde? Are you delusional? Theramore was no threat. If there was one person in the whole WoW universe that stood for peace between the Alliance and the Horde it was Jaina.
    Firstly: the Alliance is still responsible for the actions of their soldiers. And they DID kill civilians. You do a quest there to literally put the souls of the tauren killed there to rest. One guy tried to fight off the invaders with a skinning knife. Another died creating a distraction so others could escape. Those people were murdered, the Alliance doesn't get a pass on this one.

    And, tbh, he's right. Theramore was the staging ground for the Alliance forces that invaded the Barrens. Those Alliance forces that attacked Turajo? They arrived on Kalimdor by way of Theramore. That same army that forced the Tauren to wall off Mulgore and severing the trade route of grain and water from Mulgore to Orgrimmar. Which triggered a famine in Orgrimmar. And with the Southfury River rendered undrinkable from the goblin workshops in Azshara, the only way to get fresh water and grain to Durotar is no longer through the secure, quick route of the Barrens, but up through Stonetalon Mountains where Grimtotem raiding parties harass caravans. So yeah, Theramore is a huge problem for the Horde, along with the occupying Alliance forces that it houses.

    The thing here is that, it's not so important what he does, as much as what he wants to achieve. I will totally admit that he showed he's a good tactician. Garrosh is not stupid. And he strengthened the military forces. But he did that because he wants war. And don't tell me its World of Warcraft. There is no big war going on between the Alliance and the Horde. There are no daily battles in Durotar and Elwynn.

    Strong military is what Garrosh needs to be victorious. But it's his intentions we should judge. Why attack Allaince cities in the first place? Why does the Horde need another war?
    No, Garrosh isn't dumb, I'll give you that. He's just reckless, tactless and fatally obstinate.

    /Also points to the Barrens for your "War"craft needs.

    Fair point. Although it wasn't just the Horde that fought the Scourge, the Alliance forces were in there, too. And it wasn't Garrosh alone on the Horde side either. And I'm sure if Saurfang wouldn't have been there to keep him in check Garrosh would've done something stupid. But alright let's say another point, because the war against the Scourge was a good cause.
    Yeah, he was commander, but all the actual military operations were lead by the Saurfangs, Sylvanas, or Thrall. If you remember the quest you get in Agmar's Hammer, Saurfang Sr. is explicitly working behind his back to assure things go smoothly. The most Garrosh did was antagonize Varian in Dalaran in that one cut scene.

    No he didnt. He didn't even know they existed until the first one walked up into his throne room. They came to him simply because they are adventurers and they met Horde soldiers on the Wandering Isle.

    So, Garrosh is not an idiot. He knows what he wants, he knows his fair share of tactics. He did help the Horde no doubt, but most of what he did was to fuel his war. Bringing the Dragonmaw in to have more grunts to do his bidding. Building strong weapons so that he could defeat his enemies. But what has his war so far brought the orcs. Good weaponry gives you nothing if you use it wrong.

    Theramore has not helped the Horde. As I said before, it has given the Horde and the Alliance a reason to dispose of Garrosh.
    Pretty much. He's done some good stuff for the Horde, namely expanding the navy. Which may or may not be helpful since the Alliance have a lot more experience with naval battle and have considerably expanded their aerial forces. Horde needs focus on keeping an airship from being destroyed. :P
    Last edited by Schaden; 2012-11-10 at 04:27 AM.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden View Post
    Man, it's almost like that's the central theme of this expansion or something.
    It's why I picked it. Garrosh has nothing to fight for, which is why he will lose the war
    If there's one thing World of Warcraft players hate more than people who don't play, it's people that do play but not as much as them.

  17. #157
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    Many of the leaders come on the field and fight with thier troops. In the fight against the nightelves, both Tyrande and Varian were there. He has 0 respect for any other race than his own and is more of a tyrant than a good leader.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    What Garrosh did was use the races of the Horde for his war. He has send his soldiers into battle to die needlessly. He knew they were going to drop that bomb on that place anyway. What kind of leader just throws away the lifes of his soldiers like that.
    .
    How was the battle for Theremore a "needless" waste of lives? Did they not complete their objectives?
    If anything it saved Horde lives, regardless if people deem it "dishonorable" or not

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 08:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    It needed to be done to protect the Horde? Are you delusional? Theramore was no threat. If there was one person in the whole WoW universe that stood for peace between the Alliance and the Horde it was Jaina..
    If that were true how do you explain all the troops in the Southern Barrens? Troops that wear the tabard and fight under the flag of Theremore.

    Theramore is an Alliance city. The Horde is at war with the Alliance, it isnt hard to connect the dots
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-11-10 at 08:21 AM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  19. #159
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    sylvanas!!!!!!!!!

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden View Post
    This whole point is moot for that reason. We have no idea what Thrall would've done or how he would've proceeded with rebuilding Orgrimmar.



    Correct. Though lumber is needed, even in a city made of steel. Forges, cooking fires, troll structures, various war machines require lumber, such as the Demolishers that are so iconic for the Horde. Furniture, target dummies, crates, and the list goes on.

    Also, the closest other place to harvest lumber is Azshara (sparse woodlands, small trees, also being used by the Goblins), or....Ferelas and Ungoro. Ashenvale makes loads of sense.



    And his swim was due to him sending off his flank and guard and he paid the price for it.



    Firstly: the Alliance is still responsible for the actions of their soldiers. And they DID kill civilians. You do a quest there to literally put the souls of the tauren killed there to rest. One guy tried to fight off the invaders with a skinning knife. Another died creating a distraction so others could escape. Those people were murdered, the Alliance doesn't get a pass on this one.

    And, tbh, he's right. Theramore was the staging ground for the Alliance forces that invaded the Barrens. Those Alliance forces that attacked Turajo? They arrived on Kalimdor by way of Theramore. That same army that forced the Tauren to wall off Mulgore and severing the trade route of grain and water from Mulgore to Orgrimmar. Which triggered a famine in Orgrimmar. And with the Southfury River rendered undrinkable from the goblin workshops in Azshara, the only way to get fresh water and grain to Durotar is no longer through the secure, quick route of the Barrens, but up through Stonetalon Mountains where Grimtotem raiding parties harass caravans. So yeah, Theramore is a huge problem for the Horde, along with the occupying Alliance forces that it houses.



    No, Garrosh isn't dumb, I'll give you that. He's just reckless, tactless and fatally obstinate.

    /Also points to the Barrens for your "War"craft needs.



    Yeah, he was commander, but all the actual military operations were lead by the Saurfangs, Sylvanas, or Thrall. If you remember the quest you get in Agmar's Hammer, Saurfang Sr. is explicitly working behind his back to assure things go smoothly. The most Garrosh did was antagonize Varian in Dalaran in that one cut scene.



    Pretty much. He's done some good stuff for the Horde, namely expanding the navy. Which may or may not be helpful since the Alliance have a lot more experience with naval battle and have considerably expanded their aerial forces. Horde needs focus on keeping an airship from being destroyed. :P
    Alright lumber is needed, but while Ashenvale makes sense, it also costs lives. There are other means to get lumber. There was even a possibility of trading with the Alliance but Garrosh didn't care much for that.

    As for the Taurajo thing, I remember that quest, but I also remember someone said they gave the civilians a chance to evacuate. Can't find a source for that now, though.

    And Theramore was a way for the Alliance to get into the Barrens. In that sense it isn't directly a threat, but it's certainly something the Alliance did use to attack the Horde in the Barrens. However, as other Horde members have pointed out, attacking it would incur the wrath of the Alliance. Silvermoon and the Undercity feared attacks to avenge the fall of Theramore and the Night Elves would have been there to deal with, too. Garrosh planned to conquer Kalimdor in one sweep motion. But he failed and now has to deal with the consequences. Also they eradicated Theramore and the forces there, but it can still be used by the Alliance, because there aren't actually any Horde forces there. They've turned it into a crater, but didn't establish a base there. So did they really help the Horde one bit by destroying Theramore? If they wanted to prevent Alliance attacks, they've failed, because the Alliance has become more determined to fight them, even Jaina, who was caught in the middle of all this. What was Jaine to do, oppose the Alliance forces "no you're not getting to use Theramore as way to establish base on Kalimdor!"

    See that's the ironic part here. Jaina, who helped kill her own father to help the orcs, who worked towards peace between the Alliance and the Horde, saw her own city getting razed. And that's the worst part of the Theramore attack - the way the attack was executed. It wasn't a fight, it was unjustified slaughter, and that's why Baine, Vol'jin and a lot of others were so disgusted by it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 10:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    How was the battle for Theremore a "needless" waste of lives? Did they not complete their objectives?
    If anything it saved Horde lives, regardless if people deem it "dishonorable" or not
    Because Garrosh planned to drop the manabomb on that place, yet still send soldiers in there to fight the troops. He send them in there, let them fight a bit, retreated, and then dropped the bomb. Why not just drop the bomb? Or if you have to create a diversion at least attack carefully. Try to not waste your soldiers lifes. Instead he threw them in there to die needlessly, for what he perceives is the glory of the Horde. And like I said before, even defeating Theramore did not help the Horde. If they attacked it, so that there would be no threat emanating from it, he failed. Because all he's done is giving the Alliance and the Horde even more reason to go after him. Jaina had the means to destroy Orgrimmar with the focusing Iris. It was only because Thrall and Kalec made her come to her senses that Orgrimmar still exists. If it wasn't for them Garrosh's actions would've dealt the Horde a massive blow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    If that were true how do you explain all the troops in the Southern Barrens? Troops that wear the tabard and fight under the flag of Theremore.

    Theramore is an Alliance city. The Horde is at war with the Alliance, it isnt hard to connect the dots
    The whole war thing is rather loose. It's not an all-out-war, even now we've never reached that point. Sure the Alliance attacked Taurajo, although I would even argue that they only wanted to establish more bases in the Barrens to keep an eye on the orcs because they perceive them as a threat.

    But here's the main thing. Garrosh would've attacked Theramore regardless. Do you think he needed Taurajo as a reason to attack? Do you think he wanted to avenge the Tauren that died there? Even if there was no aggression coming from the Alliance on Kalimdor, even if the Alliance would not have attacked Taurajo, even if Theremore was just minding its own business, Garrosh would've attacked them anyway. Because he wants to conquer Azeroth for the Horde.
    Last edited by mmocedbf46d113; 2012-11-10 at 09:33 AM.

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