Horde's opinion: Garrosh

[Dreknar20]

War is about having something to fight for. Garrosh doesn't have anything to fight for. He's started the war just to have a war.

Uh.....not really
Its not just mindless war.

There is a purpose to it, to secure better lands and better future for the Horde.
Nations are forged in blood and iron. You dont become the worlds superpower through handshakes and blowjobs, only war can achieve that.

---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 01:14 AM ----------

War is about uniting your people under a common cause. Garrosh has consistently splintered the Horde for the "betterment" of the orcs at the expense of all other Horde races.

True, but its not like the other racial leaders are really trying to work together to win are they?

[grisset]

He is a rough baddie, and therefore people don't like him. Easy as that. Who cares that he did more to advance the Horde in one year than Thrall and Vol'jin for, like, a decade?

What advances are you talking about? Segregating all the "inferior" races in Orgrimmar? Starting a war for no reason with enemies he can't defeat? Starving the citizens to use resources on war machines? Allying with warmongering former enemies?

---------- Post added 2012-11-09 at 09:22 PM ----------

Uh.....not really
Its not just mindless war.

There is a purpose to it, to secure better lands and better future for the Horde.
Nations are forged in blood and iron. You dont become the worlds superpower through handshakes and blowjobs, only war can achieve that.

Ok, so Lebensraum... We know how that turned out...

And why is he trying to become the world's super power? Why does he want to subjugate everyone to his will?

True, but its not like the other racial leaders are really trying to work together to win are they?

Horde wise, not yet. I suspect Baine, Lor'Themar and Vol'Jin, if he comes out of the shadows, will start to get together soon. Alliance has humans, dwarves and nelves so far uniting under Varian for a common goal.

[Nindoriel]

1. Reinforced Orgrimmar = Better protection for the horde races that call the city home.

Was it Garrosh, who single-handedly built that city? And who says Thrall would not have done something similar. The city was destroyed, of course they would rebuilt it.

2. Advances into Ashenvale have secured vital lumber for the Horde.

They've been doing that for years, even before Garrosh came into the Horde. I've never really understood why they needed the lumber from Ashenvale so desperately. There are so many other places to chop lumber.

3. Brought the Dragonmaw into the Horde.

Actually that was me. I remember vividly how I went there on my Blood Elf mage and got the Dragonmaw to rejoin the Horde.Garrosh didn't do a damn thing.
Seriously, though. It's one of those things, it's not really a big plan or a strategy that was there, it was just the Dragonmaw joined the Horde, the Wildhammer joined the Alliance. Just like with Blood Elves, Draenei, Taunka, Frostborn, Worgen, Goblins, Jinyu, Hozen.

He didn't have that big plan of bringing the Dragonmaw into the Horde that he worked on tirelessly for months. It was like "look, there's orcs, let's get them to join.". It's a bit meh, but alright let's say that's a point for him. He strengthend the Horde's forces.

4. Brought down the staging point of any future Alliance attack on the Horde in Kalimdor (Argue the means all you want, it needed to be done to protect the Tauren, Trolls, Orcs and Goblins from alliance invasion. Remember Taurajo.)

Taurajo was nothing compared to Theramore. What Garrosh did was use the races of the Horde for his war. He has send his soldiers into battle to die needlessly. He knew they were going to drop that bomb on that place anyway. What kind of leader just throws away the lifes of his soldiers like that.

In Taurajo the Alliance didn't kill civilians and they actually punished the looters that went in there to plunder. The Alliance didn't drop a manabomb on that place to annihilate everything. It needed to be done to protect the Horde? Are you delusional? Theramore was no threat. If there was one person in the whole WoW universe that stood for peace between the Alliance and the Horde it was Jaina.

5. Ordered a more mechanised military and viable navy for the Horde.

The thing here is that, it's not so important what he does, as much as what he wants to achieve. I will totally admit that he showed he's a good tactician. Garrosh is not stupid. And he strengthened the military forces. But he did that because he wants war. And don't tell me its World of Warcraft. There is no big war going on between the Alliance and the Horde. There are no daily battles in Durotar and Elwynn.

Strong military is what Garrosh needs to be victorious. But it's his intentions we should judge. Why attack Allaince cities in the first place? Why does the Horde need another war?

6. Successfully led the Warsong Offensive to victory against the Scourge (Don't bother arguing whether you think this is correct, lore says he was praised as a huge success for his Northrend campaign)

Fair point. Although it wasn't just the Horde that fought the Scourge, the Alliance forces were in there, too. And it wasn't Garrosh alone on the Horde side either. And I'm sure if Saurfang wouldn't have been there to keep him in check Garrosh would've done something stupid. But alright let's say another point, because the war against the Scourge was a good cause.

7. Brought the Houjin Pandaren into the Horde.

No he didnt. He didn't even know they existed until the first one walked up into his throne room. They came to him simply because they are adventurers and they met Horde soldiers on the Wandering Isle.

So, Garrosh is not an idiot. He knows what he wants, he knows his fair share of tactics. He did help the Horde no doubt, but most of what he did was to fuel his war. Bringing the Dragonmaw in to have more grunts to do his bidding. Building strong weapons so that he could defeat his enemies. But what has his war so far brought the orcs. Good weaponry gives you nothing if you use it wrong.

Theramore has not helped the Horde. As I said before, it has given the Horde and the Alliance a reason to dispose of Garrosh.

[Dreknar20]

Ok, so Lebensraum... We know how that turned out...

And why is he trying to become the world's super power? Why does he want to subjugate everyone to his will?
l.

Manifest Destiny......remember how that worked out?

Why does he want to become a superpower? Who dsnt? What leader wldnt want their nation to become stronger and more powerful.

---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 01:31 AM ----------

They've been doing that for years, even before Garrosh came into the Horde. I've never really understood why they needed the lumber from Ashenvale so desperately. There are so many other places to chop lumber.
.

But Thrall didnt really press for it.
Garrosh turned it from border skirmishes to full scale invasion.

And apprantly Ashenvele is the best place to harvest resources, since it was the only thing the Horde leaders could think of in the meeting during the Shattering

[grisset]

Manifest Destiny......remember how that worked out?

Why does he want to become a superpower? Who dsnt? What leader wldnt want their nation to become stronger and more powerful.

That worked because we used manipulation and not all out war. When we fought, we fought a vastly out numbered and out gunned force. Garrosh is marching blindly into war with an enemy who out numbers him and slightly ahead on technology.

Making your country stronger is great, but not at the expense of your people and other nations to do it.

[Dreknar20]

That worked because we used manipulation and not all out war. When we fought, we fought a vastly out numbered and out gunned force. Garrosh is marching blindly into war with an enemy who out numbers him and slightly ahead on technology.

Making your country stronger is great, but not at the expense of your people and other nations to do it.

Well thats why Garrosh is becoming more and more unstable and using more dangerous and powerful weapons in order to achieve victory.

Every war means your people have to sacrifice, all the more means to do anything to win, or else all that sacrifice earns you jack shit

Thats basically what war is, one nation trying to gain something at the expense of another nation. And why should the Horde care about the Alliance? They are as much enemies of the Horde as the Legion or Scourge

[Nezex]

Garrosh is a great War General but unfortunately Generals generally don't make good leaders. He's too aggressive doesn't have wisdom or vision, he rules with and only respects strength and power.

I really don't mind being at war, my problem is when I chose the Horde it was because they seemed to me more right, the good guys if you will, the alliance appeared arrogant and I quite liked taking there faces off. Garrosh seems to have changed our roles, were now the arrogant ones and the alliance seem more level headed, I believe that a good leader can make his people believe what there doing is right even if its not.

Also the world isn't split into good an evil Jaina for example was an alliance good guy someone that wasn't arrogant i liked, Garrosh lost me when he turned her against the Horde. He also didnt do himself any favours when he went all Nazi on his own faction, specially as the Orcs were my least liked horde race.

[Dreknar20]

specially as the Orcs were my least liked horde race.

=0

How bout you come here and say that to my Axes

[Justignoreme]

Manifest Destiny......remember how that worked out?

Manifest destiny had a lot of help from hand of fate (and a lot of broken treaties where the Native Americans were so clearly lied to and suckered). If not for smallpox, Europeans would've *never* been able to gain a foothold in the new world. They couldn't bring the muscle it took to take on strong nations in the East which held wealth, power, and resources. That's also the reality of history. No one *ever* ruled the entire world. Western history likes to make big deals out of Rome and Greece, the reality is their nations were not "the whole world" or even a majority of it, their armies weren't invincible, and they always had rivals which they rarely went to war with because it would ruin them. For all of Rome's power and might they mastered the art of dominating broken, in-fighting tribal nations, they never went head-to-head with the giant next door in Persia, nor did they even try to sail for India or China.

Why does he want to become a superpower? Who dsnt? What leader wldnt want their nation to become stronger and more powerful.

Leaders that don't want to mire their nations endlessly in wars which kill their citizens, make enemies all over, and drain resources, wills, and diminish whatever prosperity may have started at the beginning of their campaign.

But Thrall didnt really press for it.
Garrosh turned it from border skirmishes to full scale invasion.

And apprantly Ashenvele is the best place to harvest resources, since it was the only thing the Horde leaders could think of in the meeting during the Shattering

They wanted lumber, but not from their friends in Lordaeron, not from whatever Druidic magic the Tauren demonstrated they knew to grow and repair structures without the need to harvest trees. They wanted to steal it from another country and were happy to send countless of their own to die in vain in Ashenvale. Cause that was the end result, they all threw their lives away, Warsong Lumberyard was destroyed, and though the blindsiding to the Night Elves was initially costly, the Orcs lost the entire campaign. And things like that are why countries don't endlessly wage war, even in Ancient and Medieval times, it was ALWAYS more beneficial to make trade agreements and mutually prosper and many nations, especially in the East during those times, rose to the top as the most powerful and wealthy nations in the world because of trade and the ability to defend their borders and trade routes from invasion, not invading other nations and ruining them. In our real world religion, over race, was a primary motivating factor for a lot of wars. Religion simply doesn't factor in to WoW, and for good reason.

[Dreknar20]

For all of Rome's power and might they mastered the art of dominating broken, in-fighting tribal nations, they never went head-to-head with the giant next door in Persia, nor did they even try to sail for India or China.
.

Rome actually beat the Parthian's asses a few times times

And Rome defeated much more "civiliazed" opponents than random barbarians, but thats getting OT

---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 02:23 AM ----------

Leaders that don't want to mire their nations endlessly in wars which kill their citizens, make enemies all over, and drain resources, wills, and diminish whatever prosperity may have started at the beginning of their campaign.

No they dont.

Which is part of the reason Garrosh is becoming more and more desperate, and is becoming more willing to use whatever weapon and whatever means in order to gain an edge over the Alliance

[Justignoreme]

Rome actually beat the Parthian's asses a few times times

and the Parthians also took a giant crap on the Romans, including decapitating an entire legion and capturing an arrogant emperor. Rome never secured any land in Persia for any amount of time, and vice-versa. To cite winning a few battles here and there as proof of their dominance is fallacy, they lost just as many.

No they dont.
Which is part of the reason Garrosh is becoming more and more desperate, and is becoming more willing to use whatever weapon and whatever means in order to gain an edge over the Alliance

So genocide, slavery are acceptable means when desperate? Does he not realise that these are the things that will prevent his would be victims from granting mercy upon his people?
Think Germany and Russia in WWII. Germans would rather murder a town full of Russian civilians than leave them be upon retreat. The favour was returned everywhere the Red Army showed up in Germany when the tide turned.

Garrosh has already made his intentions clear when it comes to the fate of those he wants to capture. He would have them enslaved or murdered outright. Those people will *never* be loyal to him or his horde. again since WoW occurs in "real time" we don't see 100 years down the road, but even if Garrosh had succeeded in winning, you think his Horde would last? At the best it'd stay together until he kicked off, in which everyone would splinter back to their smaller nations like the real Horde of Genghis Khan. Also, that murdering bastard was also not invincible either, his armies met their match in Egypt, the Himalayas and Japan with spectacular defeats which he never tried to "reconsile". Further still his own kin and descended were ashamed and abhorred his reputation and legacy despite being in his family line.

[grisset]

Well thats why Garrosh is becoming more and more unstable and using more dangerous and powerful weapons in order to achieve victory.

Every war means your people have to sacrifice, all the more means to do anything to win, or else all that sacrifice earns you jack shit

Thats basically what war is, one nation trying to gain something at the expense of another nation. And why should the Horde care about the Alliance? They are as much enemies of the Horde as the Legion or Scourge

Ah, the fundamental understanding between pro- and anti-Garrosh people. I think all arguments stem from the bolded, and I don't think there's any way to convince either side of the argument that their way is right.

I see the Alliance as my enemy the way the United States sees China as their enemy.

[Dreknar20]

I think all arguments stem from the bolded, and I don't think there's any way to convince either side of the argument that their way is right.
.

Hehe
Every army believed God was on their side
Every army believed they had right on their side

And as George Carlin said, "Someones gonna be fucking dissapointed"

---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 02:45 AM ----------

I see the Alliance as my enemy the way the United States sees China as their enemy.

Yet when it comes to war and you need to kill them will you feel the same?

Happens all the time in war. Both sides always try and demonize the other side, make them seem less like themselves.
Because if we convince people they are not like us, it becomes easier to kill them

As in Warcraft, in Tides of War, a buncha people wanted to object to Baine calling the Alliance races "people"
And theres always places where humans or whatever refer to Horde races as beasts, monsters, or creatures

Because if they were "people" they would be on our side right?

[grisset]

Hehe
Every army believed God was on their side
Every army believed they had right on their side

And as George Carlin said, "Someones gonna be fucking dissapointed"

---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 02:45 AM ----------


Yet when it comes to war and you need to kill them will you feel the same?

Happens all the time in war. Both sides always try and demonize the other side, make them seem less like themselves.
Because if we convince people they are not like us, it becomes easier to kill them

As in Warcraft, in Tides of War, a buncha people wanted to object to Baine calling the Alliance races "people"
And theres always places where humans or whatever refer to Horde races as beasts, monsters, or creatures

Because if they were "people" they would be on our side right?

If it came to war with just cause, killing would indeed become necessary. The problem with Garrosh for me is that I don't see the war itself as necessary. There was no just cause in my eyes for us to attack the Alliance.

Like I said, I see Allies as China. We don't see eye to eye on many issues, but it doesn't come to open hostility because of it.

[Justignoreme]

Happens all the time in war. Both sides always try and demonize the other side, make them seem less like themselves.
Because if we convince people they are not like us, it becomes easier to kill them

Garrosh is going far beyond "demonizing" Alliance races. He isn't saying "Orcs, the Alliance kills your babies, takes food off your table, and wants to enslave you" he says "the Alliance are weak, disgusting cowards that have no honour, paint the world red with their blood and you will be rewarded!"

It's stark constrast, as the prior is laughable, the latter is vicious.

[Schaden]

War is about having something to fight for.

Man, it's almost like that's the central theme of this expansion or something.

[Snorkle]

Where's the option for "I hate his guts and can't wait for me and/or voljin to put him out of OUR misery!" ?

[Dreknar20]

Man, it's almost like that's the central theme of this expansion or something.

i dont think so, both sides have reasons to fight

To me its more about not why we fight, but how we fight.
You can fight "normally" or in Metzen's own words "beat them so bad their grandparents would cry"

---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 03:50 AM ----------

Where's the option for "I hate his guts and can't wait for me and/or voljin to put him out of OUR misery!" ?

I think thats option 2

[Schaden]

Was it Garrosh, who single-handedly built that city? And who says Thrall would not have done something similar. The city was destroyed, of course they would rebuilt it.

This whole point is moot for that reason. We have no idea what Thrall would've done or how he would've proceeded with rebuilding Orgrimmar.

They've been doing that for years, even before Garrosh came into the Horde. I've never really understood why they needed the lumber from Ashenvale so desperately. There are so many other places to chop lumber.

Correct. Though lumber is needed, even in a city made of steel. Forges, cooking fires, troll structures, various war machines require lumber, such as the Demolishers that are so iconic for the Horde. Furniture, target dummies, crates, and the list goes on.

Also, the closest other place to harvest lumber is Azshara (sparse woodlands, small trees, also being used by the Goblins), or....Ferelas and Ungoro. Ashenvale makes loads of sense.

Actually that was me. I remember vividly how I went there on my Blood Elf mage and got the Dragonmaw to rejoin the Horde.Garrosh didn't do a damn thing.
Seriously, though. It's one of those things, it's not really a big plan or a strategy that was there, it was just the Dragonmaw joined the Horde, the Wildhammer joined the Alliance. Just like with Blood Elves, Draenei, Taunka, Frostborn, Worgen, Goblins, Jinyu, Hozen.

And his swim was due to him sending off his flank and guard and he paid the price for it.

Taurajo was nothing compared to Theramore. What Garrosh did was use the races of the Horde for his war. He has send his soldiers into battle to die needlessly. He knew they were going to drop that bomb on that place anyway. What kind of leader just throws away the lifes of his soldiers like that.

In Taurajo the Alliance didn't kill civilians and they actually punished the looters that went in there to plunder. The Alliance didn't drop a manabomb on that place to annihilate everything. It needed to be done to protect the Horde? Are you delusional? Theramore was no threat. If there was one person in the whole WoW universe that stood for peace between the Alliance and the Horde it was Jaina.

Firstly: the Alliance is still responsible for the actions of their soldiers. And they DID kill civilians. You do a quest there to literally put the souls of the tauren killed there to rest. One guy tried to fight off the invaders with a skinning knife. Another died creating a distraction so others could escape. Those people were murdered, the Alliance doesn't get a pass on this one.

And, tbh, he's right. Theramore was the staging ground for the Alliance forces that invaded the Barrens. Those Alliance forces that attacked Turajo? They arrived on Kalimdor by way of Theramore. That same army that forced the Tauren to wall off Mulgore and severing the trade route of grain and water from Mulgore to Orgrimmar. Which triggered a famine in Orgrimmar. And with the Southfury River rendered undrinkable from the goblin workshops in Azshara, the only way to get fresh water and grain to Durotar is no longer through the secure, quick route of the Barrens, but up through Stonetalon Mountains where Grimtotem raiding parties harass caravans. So yeah, Theramore is a huge problem for the Horde, along with the occupying Alliance forces that it houses.

The thing here is that, it's not so important what he does, as much as what he wants to achieve. I will totally admit that he showed he's a good tactician. Garrosh is not stupid. And he strengthened the military forces. But he did that because he wants war. And don't tell me its World of Warcraft. There is no big war going on between the Alliance and the Horde. There are no daily battles in Durotar and Elwynn.

Strong military is what Garrosh needs to be victorious. But it's his intentions we should judge. Why attack Allaince cities in the first place? Why does the Horde need another war?

No, Garrosh isn't dumb, I'll give you that. He's just reckless, tactless and fatally obstinate.

/Also points to the Barrens for your "War"craft needs.

Fair point. Although it wasn't just the Horde that fought the Scourge, the Alliance forces were in there, too. And it wasn't Garrosh alone on the Horde side either. And I'm sure if Saurfang wouldn't have been there to keep him in check Garrosh would've done something stupid. But alright let's say another point, because the war against the Scourge was a good cause.

Yeah, he was commander, but all the actual military operations were lead by the Saurfangs, Sylvanas, or Thrall. If you remember the quest you get in Agmar's Hammer, Saurfang Sr. is explicitly working behind his back to assure things go smoothly. The most Garrosh did was antagonize Varian in Dalaran in that one cut scene.

No he didnt. He didn't even know they existed until the first one walked up into his throne room. They came to him simply because they are adventurers and they met Horde soldiers on the Wandering Isle.

So, Garrosh is not an idiot. He knows what he wants, he knows his fair share of tactics. He did help the Horde no doubt, but most of what he did was to fuel his war. Bringing the Dragonmaw in to have more grunts to do his bidding. Building strong weapons so that he could defeat his enemies. But what has his war so far brought the orcs. Good weaponry gives you nothing if you use it wrong.

Theramore has not helped the Horde. As I said before, it has given the Horde and the Alliance a reason to dispose of Garrosh.

Pretty much. He's done some good stuff for the Horde, namely expanding the navy. Which may or may not be helpful since the Alliance have a lot more experience with naval battle and have considerably expanded their aerial forces. Horde needs focus on keeping an airship from being destroyed. :P

[grisset]

Man, it's almost like that's the central theme of this expansion or something.

It's why I picked it. Garrosh has nothing to fight for, which is why he will lose the war