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  1. #241
    I am Murloc! Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sydänyö View Post
    It's such an unimaginable disconnect people have. "WoW is dying", or some other shit, when it's got more subscribers than all the other western MMO's that have come and gone during it's lifetime.
    Sure McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any chain in the world -- billions -- but they don't taste as good as one made at home (nor as healthy).

    Size itself doesn't make the best, size just shows people playing is what is more convenient (when was the last time you saw an EQ2 game box at Wal-Mart to buy?).

    People play WoW because it's there and low maintenance for them (don't need a fancy computer to play) and it's a simple game. It serves their purpose.

    How WoW retains players is that the players don't want to try and give other MMOs a chance, as they have their convenience before them. They want WoW in another game that isn't WoW, and get dissatisfied and come back.

    I like the other MMOs as they are different from WoW and each has something very unique to them that's fun -- EQ2's crafting system; guild halls and housing; friendlier community; commitment to stick to things and not quit...and their world isn't destroyed; DDO's multi-class builds; their dungeons (now THOSE are dungeons, some with 6hr average run times!); and loot system; RIFT's dynamic world; true exploration achieves...and shinies even on top of mountains!

    There's room for more than *just* one MMO.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes.
    They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."


  2. #242
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Sure McDonald's sells more hamburgers than any chain in the world -- billions -- but they don't taste as good as one made at home (nor as healthy).

    Size itself doesn't make the best, size just shows people playing is what is more convenient (when was the last time you saw an EQ2 game box at Wal-Mart to buy?).

    People play WoW because it's there and low maintenance for them (don't need a fancy computer to play) and it's a simple game. It serves their purpose.

    How WoW retains players is that the players don't want to try and give other MMOs a chance, as they have their convenience before them. They want WoW in another game that isn't WoW, and get dissatisfied and come back.

    I like the other MMOs as they are different from WoW and each has something very unique to them that's fun -- EQ2's crafting system; guild halls and housing; friendlier community; commitment to stick to things and not quit...and their world isn't destroyed; DDO's multi-class builds; their dungeons (now THOSE are dungeons, some with 6hr average run times!); and loot system; RIFT's dynamic world; true exploration achieves...and shinies even on top of mountains!

    There's room for more than *just* one MMO.
    Not that just. People have established relationships in wow. They have guilds they like to play with and friends they like to play with and it's harder to abandon that for something new. Nobody wants to reforge those social connections that have already been made.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    There's room for more than *just* one MMO.
    I wasn't, and I'm sure nobody is, disputing that fact. Of course there's room for more; there are several with subscribers still playing them.

    It's just so hilarious to see these "WoW went down from 12 million to 9 million, OMG it's dead!" -threads.

    I personally have like 50 games on my game PC right now. Not that I have time to play them, but I definitely support the idea of having more than one MMO. I just don't support the incessant whining about how WoW is dying and how something needs to be done and whatever.

  4. #244
    Pandaren Monk meathead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Ok tell me how come they can put out AAA content and a way faster rate then blizzard.

    It even makes blizzard look worse if its true that rifts sub base is smaller then runscape yet they can put out AAA content even things people have been asking for in WOW "Player house's"

    also tracking websites have been know to be wrong a lot.
    "Ok tell me how come they can put out AAA content and a way faster rate then blizzard."

    thats easy to answer- its because blizz have shifted most of the old good devs "the ones that made wow/great" on to titian,blizzs new mmo.i think they only have a handfull or tow of devs working on wow theses days.wow is an after thought in blizzs mind,its nothing more then a cash cow until titian is ready. wow is in maintenance mode,sadly its glory days are long gone,just like most of the devs. wow is in maintenance mode,while back in the day wow was improvement/pioneering mode.it set the standard for other mmos.

    rift is still kinda new,there devs are still trying to make the game better,its there main focus point.where do you think wow got the idea for the new bgs in mop from?thats right other mmo/rift.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Blizzard need to implement some kind of long-term AA.
    [...]
    WoW became very easy to walk away from.
    The problem with AA is that it makes the game hard to come back to. That's worse than making it easy to walk away from.

    The existence of their own kind of AA is why after I left Rift I never considered going back.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Not that just. People have established relationships in wow. They have guilds they like to play with and friends they like to play with and it's harder to abandon that for something new. Nobody wants to reforge those social connections that have already been made.
    I really do feel the established connections are a huge part of at least a decent portion of the playerbase. I can't say how much or anything, but I think it's probably substantial.

    I'm sure that part of WoW's huge numbers are more of a 'constant churn' of newer gamers who play a game for awhile and move on; but they get roughly the same amount of these coming in as they do going out, so this won't really show. They still have the subs, even if the people only sub for, say, 3-6 months and then leave. They simply even out.

    From what I understand, these days WoW's subs are fairly balanced between East and West in terms of numbers, with what I believe to be slightly more in the West, but these days it seems to be pretty close. This does tell me that-since it used to be from what I recall heavier on the west, the Western populations lost subs, while they gained in Asia(again, equaling out-but it would explain why some more of the Western servers feel more slim.) To Blizz, if 500k leave the West but 500k join in the east, they still have retained their 500k; but to Western players, that's X amount of servers that feel more empty(and to the folks in the East, that's more lively for them.) As a side note-I wonder what caused a faster popularity gain over in the East? I understand they get the game later than we do(China does anyway to my memory), but I have noticed over time a faster gain in Asian subscriptions, but because of 'same-y' overall subscriptions, it leads me to believe that Asia may actually end up equalling the West soon in terms of subs. I suppose it might be no different why the West gained so much in the first place-the more people play, the more social ties crop up, the more people want to stick and get yet others into it.)

    As for what they need to do to keep their 10m? Well, not a repeat of Cataclysm's release schedule for one. So far, so good, but anything can happen. This is probably one of the bigger things.

    Making sure people don't run out of things to do-while at the *same time* making sure what people can do is both A. Fun, and B. They have a choice of the fun. While Wrath definitely had flaws, I believe several factors led into it becoming the most popular expansion.

    -Easy for new players/casuals to get into, with a little something for the hard-nosed players in the shape of Heroic modes(especially stuff like Yogg-0 and LK HC)
    -Quite a variety of content
    -Very alt-friendly(you could essentially choose how to gear up)
    -Storyline being something that many old WC3 players who may have quit before Wrath came out-maybe even back in Vanilla-wanted to come back to see, since it was the stuff they remembered with Arthas and the like


    I think after Arthas, the game did lose a little steam for the 'old guard' in terms of the plot. I actually remember a blue saying that a pretty hefty chunk of today's subs are actually not the original Vanilla crew(and given Vanilla rocked about 7 million, that's a LOT of turnover.) But the social ties really are important-I do think that a fair amount of today's 10m are made up of Wrath players, with the rest still being some of the older Vanilla/TBC crowd, and then some Cata+people, and a helping of new. But Wrath is a good four years old now-that's a decent amount of time to build up some solid gaming buddies.

    I think time will tell with this expansion. it's fighting against age, so I don't ever see it getting as big as Wrath again(who knows, though), but it depends if they can keep a large enough group of players to keep the other players who are only playing because of friends at this point(of which I really can't say how many there are of.)
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

  7. #247
    Again, since Blizzard introduced the technique of open world play across servers without loading screens, they found the Holy Grail of MMO play without the trouble of dying single server play that plagued every MMO released since the introduction of Ultima On Line.

    Curious that cross server play was set in 3 year steps: 2006 BG's, 2009 dungeons, 2012 open world play.

    It is obvious that the next 3 years this cross server play will be perfected further and integrated in their new MMO from the very start (along with seamless phasing as shown in the excellent examples of Tillar farming)

    -----

    So the number of players ... Has now become an obsolete discussion ... as a 200k player WoW in this cross server mechanism is ... 20 times bigger than the biggest WoW server could EVER hold in the past.

    It is the ONLY thing needed to keep WoW up eternally or as long as Blizzard decides to close the one server cluster (probably the size of a Nintendo Cube by 2025 ...).

    So Blizzard invented the eternal full player worlds with this new mechanic. Whether there are 10 million players or 200k.

    Sad times for Blizzard haters ... I know. The proof has always been in the pudding. As early as 2006.

  8. #248
    I am Murloc! Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aureth View Post
    I think after Arthas, the game did lose a little steam for the 'old guard' in terms of the plot. I actually remember a blue saying that a pretty hefty chunk of today's subs are actually not the original Vanilla crew(and given Vanilla rocked about 7 million, that's a LOT of turnover.) But the social ties really are important-I do think that a fair amount of today's 10m are made up of Wrath players, with the rest still being some of the older Vanilla/TBC crowd, and then some Cata+people, and a helping of new. But Wrath is a good four years old now-that's a decent amount of time to build up some solid gaming buddies.

    I think time will tell with this expansion. it's fighting against age, so I don't ever see it getting as big as Wrath again(who knows, though), but it depends if they can keep a large enough group of players to keep the other players who are only playing because of friends at this point(of which I really can't say how many there are of.)
    It lost it because after having a central villain from WC (where people related to him before even WotLK existed) there's no replacement.

    Heroes need leaders to admire and have some chief antagonist to have a purpose to keep treading forth.

    Without a reason for the fight and a means to justify the fight, let alone someone to smite who leads it, the story falls flat.

    The "glory" is a return to having a meaning to be a hero in the game.

    There's too much focusing on the parts that divides the attention. If you're too much focused on losing an AoE for example, how do you think having a final showdown in 1 1/2 years will feel worthwhile now?

    The story is the glue that binds the pieces together. Since WotLK the story isn't really there, and the pieces are becoming like Deathwing at the end of DS.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes.
    They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."


  9. #249
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    Again, since Blizzard introduced the technique of open world play across servers without loading screens, they found the Holy Grail of MMO play without the trouble of dying single server play that plagued every MMO released since the introduction of Ultima On Line.

    Curious that cross server play was set in 3 year steps: 2006 BG's, 2009 dungeons, 2012 open world play.

    It is obvious that the next 3 years this cross server play will be perfected further and integrated in their new MMO from the very start (along with seamless phasing as shown in the excellent examples of Tillar farming)

    -----

    So the number of players ... Has now become an obsolete discussion ... as a 200k player WoW in this cross server mechanism is ... 20 times bigger than the biggest WoW server could EVER hold in the past.

    It is the ONLY thing needed to keep WoW up eternally or as long as Blizzard decides to close the one server cluster (probably the size of a Nintendo Cube by 2025 ...).

    So Blizzard invented the eternal full player worlds with this new mechanic. Whether there are 10 million players or 200k.

    Sad times for Blizzard haters ... I know. The proof has always been in the pudding. As early as 2006.
    Indeed.
    It's quote funny when all the haters saying - "omg, WoW is so old, it won't last longer" when actually all the tech they have it's miles ahead from competition. When the time will come for new character models, haters will peobably die in shame, not WoW.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    Again, since Blizzard introduced the technique of open world play across servers without loading screens, they found the Holy Grail of MMO play without the trouble of dying single server play that plagued every MMO released since the introduction of Ultima On Line.

    Curious that cross server play was set in 3 year steps: 2006 BG's, 2009 dungeons, 2012 open world play.



    It is obvious that the next 3 years this cross server play will be perfected further and integrated in their new MMO from the very start (along with seamless phasing as shown in the excellent examples of Tillar farming)

    -----

    So the number of players ... Has now become an obsolete discussion ... as a 200k player WoW in this cross server mechanism is ... 20 times bigger than the biggest WoW server could EVER hold in the past.

    It is the ONLY thing needed to keep WoW up eternally or as long as Blizzard decides to close the one server cluster (probably the size of a Nintendo Cube by 2025 ...).

    So Blizzard invented the eternal full player worlds with this new mechanic. Whether there are 10 million players or 200k.

    Sad times for Blizzard haters ... I know. The proof has always been in the pudding. As early as 2006.
    I forgot to add that the usual Blizzard trashers will want to avoid this post as it settles the CORE discussion in a rather straight manner:

    WoW is dying is meaningless after what Blizzard introduced with this cross realm server mechanic.

    As could be seen already 2 steps above.

    It is so important that very few people realise it.

  11. #251
    They need to listen to their consumer's valid complaints. I cancelled my account last night, because I truly felt it was the only way to air my grievances with the daily quests debacle. I only have limited time to play, and I hate that all I seem to be doing are daily quests, especially because other reputations are gated behind getting to Revered with the Golden Lotus. I hate it, and it would be nice to have the option to run dungeons with a Tabard instead.
    Have you heard of the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV? With an expanded free trial which you can play through the entirety of A Realm Reborn and the award winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 for free with no restrictions on playtime?

  12. #252
    Deleted
    Simple:

    -Re-do the Dailies design.
    -Keep content coming in a fast paste
    -Keep content challening for players

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Kudos View Post
    They need to listen to their consumer's valid complaints. I cancelled my account last night, because I truly felt it was the only way to air my grievances with the daily quests debacle. I only have limited time to play, and I hate that all I seem to be doing are daily quests, especially because other reputations are gated behind getting to Revered with the Golden Lotus. I hate it, and it would be nice to have the option to run dungeons with a Tabard instead.
    Your arguments are about the colour of the door mat, while Blizzard is constructing a nucleair power house of server techniques, you complain about the colour of a door mat.

  14. #254
    Several things blizz needs to do
    #1 faster releases of new content
    #2 Add incentive for 25m raiding or kill both 10/25 and replace with 15m
    #3 Reward the hardcore players with something that is out of reach of the average player.
    #4 Update player models
    #5 Give us another expansion focused on the burning legion
    #6 Decrease travel time by increasing the flight speed of Taxi's/flightmasters and adding portals linking all the capital cities.
    #7 Burn stormwind to the ground and make ironforge the new capital

    Well #7 wouldn't exactly be required but it would make me squeal like a giddy little schoolgirl.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankendog View Post
    I'm not sure why you have such a hatred for Rift, but you need to get off your high horse. The best part is in 1 quarter, WoW will most likely lose more players total then rift might have. When new sub numbers come out with the amount of people that are out of their 1 year locked subscription from the D3 deal, I am eager to see the results. That is very sad, and a very poor business model. Rift is really the expansion BC needed. It has separate raid lock outs, one level of raid difficulty, which is hard, and many 10 mans or 20 mans. Not to mention the talent system allows one to custom tailor their character to a encounter.

    WoW abandoned most of all of these things, which took time. The things that made WoW grow to such a large game are being changed. Dailes were a gift at 70, not something that needed to be done every day. Now dailies are substituting for actual content, and raids are more then lackluster in WoW. Such a shame.

    On the other hand, i can play Rift instead. A game with diverse talents, a focus on PvE raiding, a great community, and devs i can actually see do something. But, with your attitude to Rift, i do hope that anyone that agrees with you never purchases Rift, as the game will be much better off without people such as yourself. I mean really, if you were only copy and pasting from EJ, you never took time to learn your class.
    First of all, I don't care enough about Rift to hate it.

    If you're enjoying it then good for you, however a lot of Rift's playerbase did not stick around

    And don't give me that "spec diversity" nonsense ... every class in rift has a cookie cutter spec that u need to follow for progression.

    and spare me ur Rift marketing campaign ... if half the things you said were actually true then the game wouldn't be a hollow corpse with less activity than barbie land online.
    Gamers are too obsessed with the death of games. Imagine if all that energy was channeled into the LIFE of games.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    Your arguments are about the colour of the door mat, while Blizzard is constructing a nucleair power house of server techniques, you complain about the colour of a door mat.
    He makes a good point none the less it is kind of crappy that several reputations are gated via golden lotus rep.
    Though I do find it rather laughable that it would annoy someone enough to the point of quitting.

  17. #257
    I am Murloc! Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    Your arguments are about the colour of the door mat, while Blizzard is constructing a nucleair power house of server techniques, you complain about the colour of a door mat.
    People complained about the Edsel as it looked ugly.

    Guess what happened to the Edsel?

    It does matter.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes.
    They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."


  18. #258
    Deleted
    I'm really enjoying what they have given us. More of the same please.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Because it's an MMO in 2012 and it isn't called World of Warcraft?
    We got a winner, Every MMO that isnt World of Warcraft is pretty much dead or dying, Remember the hype from a year ago how SWTOR was going to totally crush World of Warcraft, Well i am sure it didnt happen.

    Haters will always be haters and with this group of people blizzard can NEVER do anything right. Just an example they complain that we dont have new textures on the characters. And if blizzard gets that done they will complain why redo textures it isnt content, In short they will complain and bitch and moan regardless of what Blizzard does and i am pretty sure a fair amount of them would prefer to see blizzard do poorly.

    All that is needed to retain subs is proper pacing of content and only work on the premise of max 18 month long expansion max 3 tiers of gears in this time frame

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    People complained about the Edsel as it looked ugly.

    Guess what happened to the Edsel?

    It does matter.
    These so called in game problems of colour, dailies, difficulty or nerfs have nothing to do with long term mmo design.

    To answer a general market question like in the OP, you need to look at the long term planning and game development in a technical manner, not indulge in trivial content which is merely a one coat paint.

    Things that DID matter were server related or huge design decisions: cross server BG's, cross server dungeons/raids, cross server open worlds, seamless background loading worlds in Vanilla WOW, phasing (now perfected with fabulous Tiller farming growth and Pet Battles)...

    Those are the things to look at in long term play, not the fact you do a daily too often.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2012-11-10 at 10:30 PM.

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