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  1. #1

    Simple Prot paladin question

    Hello,

    I'm a raid leader of a relatively casual raid. We have a prot paladin who is having a huge problem generating threat and aside from some obvious changes that my friends have made I do still have one question.

    Is there any viable reason...AT ALL...for a prot paladin to not cap hit and expertise? He gave me some reasons that I honestly cannot remember and his gear is not as good as the rest of my raid's gear but I've been assured that his gear should not affect his ability to generate threat to the point where my DPS are afraid to...well...do their job. I apologize if this has been asked before but my quick scan of the forum didn't show any topics related to this specifically.

    Thank you in advance for your help and guidance.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Achtland View Post
    Hello,

    I'm a raid leader of a relatively casual raid. We have a prot paladin who is having a huge problem generating threat and aside from some obvious changes that my friends have made I do still have one question.

    Is there any viable reason...AT ALL...for a prot paladin to not cap hit and expertise? He gave me some reasons that I honestly cannot remember and his gear is not as good as the rest of my raid's gear but I've been assured that his gear should not affect his ability to generate threat to the point where my DPS are afraid to...well...do their job. I apologize if this has been asked before but my quick scan of the forum didn't show any topics related to this specifically.

    Thank you in advance for your help and guidance.
    Without seeing his gear it is not much we can do. Realise you do not want to hang him out, but without an armory it is impossible to help you really.
    Especially when you do not even know his reason for gearing as he has done.

    Try to find out what he says about his gear, why he is gearing like he is.

    Give us some basic information ( if not armory link )

    How is his averege ilvl
    How is he gemming
    How is he reforging
    How is he enchanting
    What trinkets are he using

    Current hit,exp,mastery,haste, dodge, parry, stamina values.

    The more you answer the more we can help you.

    In most cases capping hit and expertise is benefitial, however there are some situations and gearing strategies that are completely viable where this is not the case. This especially apply to 25 man raiding.

    Either way, even if he is sitting at 0% hit 0% expertise, he should not be losing aggro to dps. If he losing aggro he is either in green gear and dps full epic or he is messing up his rotation. Logs could also help.
    You can always tell him to read up on his rotation a bit.

  3. #3
    Yeah to add to what Firefly has said:

    Are you talking about trash or bosses?

    If bosses, which in particular?

    In general Paladin aoe threat is pretty woeful, but this is less of a case for dps to be pulling aggro and more of a case for your other tank to end up with the lions share of the mobs.

    Also, I would be surprised if he is utilising a build which didn't require hit/expertise capping - these things are pretty stock standard unless you are:

    A. On the cutting edge of content.
    B. A theorycrafting genius.

    Your guy sounds like neither.

    Similarly, is he gemming avoidance stats? Because stacking dodge/parry will lower your dps and thus your threat pretty quickly.

    Lastly (as obvious as this is)... does he have righteous fury on?

    Also, does he have glyph of the battle healer? Coz the heal threat from that glyph alone can really help.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    Yeah to add to what Firefly has said:

    Are you talking about trash or bosses?

    If bosses, which in particular?

    In general Paladin aoe threat is pretty woeful, but this is less of a case for dps to be pulling aggro and more of a case for your other tank to end up with the lions share of the mobs.

    Also, I would be surprised if he is utilising a build which didn't require hit/expertise capping - these things are pretty stock standard unless you are:

    A. On the cutting edge of content.
    B. A theorycrafting genius.

    Your guy sounds like neither.

    Similarly, is he gemming avoidance stats? Because stacking dodge/parry will lower your dps and thus your threat pretty quickly.

    Lastly (as obvious as this is)... does he have righteous fury on?

    Also, does he have glyph of the battle healer? Coz the heal threat from that glyph alone can really help.
    Please believe me when I say that I'm not trying to gimp your help. I'm trying to obtain it without shoving his name all over a forum that he might frequent. Especially as my forum name and main name are the same lol Some people are weird about accepting this kind of help but I want it for my own knowledge as well given that my tanking has been limited to bear and to cata content besides.

    I'll see if I can answer some of your questions, however. His equipped item level is 466. This is a LOT lower than the majority of my raid but he says the gear isn't the issue.

    The simplest boss I can relate to you(but not the only boss there's problems on) both is Stone Guardians. Our dps will hold back a full 5-7 seconds before dpsing the bosses and they still manage to rip the dogs off him. I've only managed to avoid the deaths that plague my DK, mage and lock only because I have fade macro'd to like every spell when he tanks ><. He tanks two. He has only has ONE piece of reforged gear and this is his shield.

    His stats are as follows:

    Mastery: 16.65%
    Hit: +1.36%
    Expertise: 3.55%
    Dodge: 11.29%
    Parry: 15.17%
    Block: 29.71%

    His Talents are as follows:

    Pursuit of Justice
    Fist of Justice
    Sacred Shield
    Hand of Purity
    Sanctified Wrath
    Execution Sentence

    Glyphs are as Follows:

    Alabaster Shield
    Devine Protection
    Holy Wrath

    Trinkets are:

    Bitterest balebrew charm
    Brawlers Statue

    He IS gemming for stam and mastery. His enchants are hit on his cloak..no shoulder enchant.

    I would be happy to link you my parses except again, I'm trying to do this as anonymously as possible.(that and secretly my spriesty dps sucks since I'm more busy fixing everyone else >< =P)

    I hope that painted a clearer picture.
    Last edited by Achtland; 2012-11-22 at 04:45 AM.

  5. #5
    Okay. The guy is quite undergeared. He is sitting below 470 item level whilst most dps are above 480 which of course can be a concern.

    To be quite fair with him, stone guards HC is the only fight where I actually lost aggro myself some time this expansion, if dps go all about in the pull ( especially on different dogs ) your vengeance is low and can be hard to make some decent threat. Solved this by putting up a skull and only single target for the first 10 seconds, after that it is chill. Dps never waited though, burn from the pull. But yeah, try assigning skul in the pull.

    He is missing enchants on shoulders and legs.
    Missing belt buckle
    Missing 2x BS gems

    i450 helmet????
    No meta gem, no mega socket bonus?
    Really, the dude could practically take on a cloth helmet and get better results than his current helmet.
    Must fix.

    He got no reforging whatsoever.
    ( 137 dodge -> 137 mastery )
    He is using pandaren step enchant together with pursuit of justice ( does not stack )

    He is gemming for mastery and still seem to prioritze dodge and parry alot which is weird.
    Going for a stamina + avoidance build is fine, but he is going for mastery and still retain alot of avoidance which just does not work out well.

    He should get a ghost iron dragonlin with +600 hit exp mastery
    Replace that brawler statue
    Replace some enchants where he can do better ( like wrist )
    Reforge to hit/exp on every gear piece.

    All in all his gear is not so good, and he has optimized his gear badly making it even worse.

    If you are raiding 10 man I would suggest him to go for hit+exp+mastery
    If you are raiding 25 man go for a bit more stam+hit+exp>mastery

    If he is struggling with pull aggro he should use Potion of Mogu Power as prepot.
    Wings in pull helps alot
    He could use strength flask aswell.

    No glyph of the battle healer? What? Fix asap.
    Focused shield is nice for single target but if not single target he should not glyph it.
    Make sure he uses seal of insight.
    Make sure he use righteous fury.

    Feels like he has been slacking alot with his gear with enchants and stuff and alot of 450 + sub optimal gear pieces.
    He could really work on his gear in heroics. From just a quick glance he can get a good 6-7 upgrades in heroics ( some of them small basically changing one 463 for a better 463 like the ring for example )

    But yeah, still feels like the rotation is a big problem and if you can help him understand his rotation better he should hold aggro better. Strength prepot as said before with wings.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-11-22 at 05:27 AM.

  6. #6
    Yeah basically as above.

    There is very little (no in my mind) excuse to have that low expertise and hit unless you just dinged 90.

    Straight stam trinkets also aren't optimal, he would be better off with a Relic of Niuzao (8k on my server) or the expertise trinket off Gandling paired with the Ghost Iron Dragonling with hit/exp/mastery.

    And yeah, I know this doesn't help at all, but I tanked Stone Guard in 462 gear without any problems with threat.

    It really looks like the gear discrepancy between him and your dps is too large to handle easily, and his strange gemming and lack of reforge isn't helping either.

    I would go out on a limb and say he is one of the players who refuses to do dailies, which is fine, assuming you put the effort into your gear in other ways - which it sounds like he hasn't.

    Basically, his gear needs to improve to catch up with yours, as does his stats/gems/reforge and likely his rotation :S

    EDIT: Looking at his armory, his wep enchant isn't helping for threat either. He would be better off with Windsong or Dancing Steel.

    Also, he has a lot (a lot) of justice point gear - when regular heroic gear would be superior. I really don't enjoy being "that guy" but it seems like he isn't very invested in his character. Lots of gear needed from heroics, no items from reputation, minimal theorycrafting, no reforging, minimal enchants - kind of a deadly combination.

    Talent wise he could also try the following to help in general tanking and threat generation:

    Change Hand of Purity --> Unbreakable Spirit
    Sanctified Wrath --> Holy Avenger
    Execution Sentence --> Light's Hammer (for better tanking) or Holy Prism (for better threat only when paired with Glyph of the Battle Healer)
    Last edited by Luciferiuz; 2012-11-22 at 05:41 AM.

  7. #7
    remember that when you tanked stone guards in 462 your dpsers were not decked in 485+

    Still, as said above, his gear can use some serious work, especially the head. No meta socket is just beyond me. How can you allow so much slacking with gear? It is not hard to grind heroics for gear. Within the week of release I had farmed 4 full different 463 gear sets, not a single 450. This included
    Haste gear set
    Avoidance gear set
    Dps gear set
    Alt dps gear set

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    remember that when you tanked stone guards in 462 your dpsers were not decked in 485+
    Yeah sorry, I was trying to pair that line with the line below it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    And yeah, I know this doesn't help at all, but I tanked Stone Guard in 462 gear without any problems with threat.

    It really looks like the gear discrepancy between him and your dps is too large to handle easily
    But yeah could have been a fair bit clearer, sorry about that.

  9. #9
    Aren't you guys just resourceful Thank you! I was wondering if you'd pick up my subtle hints =P

  10. #10
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    Not sure if a brick to the head may have been more subtle...... lets hope your guildie isn't as smart.

  11. #11
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    Making sure he use every global available is also something you might wanna look into in case he is not doing this.
    Recently lvled my prot pala up to 90 and started tanking normal alt runs, it's so important that every global is used at the start of a fight otherwise you are very likely to drop aggro at the start due to low vengeance.

    Hit cap is key, as well as getting as close to exp cap as possible to make sure he lands his threat and holy power generating abilities.

    To me, looking at armory, it seems like he is stuck in the old mindset of how prot pala works. Active mitigation changed this up quite a bit as you no longer should go for the traditional tankgear who has dodge/parry on them. You can still go pure avoidance gear like it almost seems like he is doing but avoidance is RNG, and that can screw you over hard since you can take a ton of spike damage in a matter of seconds because of it. We had a prot pala in our guild we had to spamheal 24/7 just to keep alive because he went with the traditional way of gearing his prot pala, ignoring hit and exp completely, valuing parry/dodge over all others.

    It says alot when I started tanking altruns on my pala, very undergeared compared to our prot pala in mainraids, and the healers said it was a relief to heal me compared to him. And I basically ignore parry/dodge completely unless it's a major upgrade in other fields.

    It's all about reaching that hit and expertise cap so that you can land your holy power generating abilities which then again gives you more uptime on Shield of the Rightous which again boosts your threat by a lot.

    Next comes mastery, which further increases the damage reduction from Shield of the Righteous as well as increasing the healing you do with Word of Glory every time you use SotR, this healing part stacks 5 times.

    After that, before dodge and parry, comes Haste, which due to a passive for prot and ret paladins reduces the cooldown and global on your holy power generating abilities which leads to more frequent SotR which again leads to more threat.

    Hope this helps and that you can convince him to change his ways
    Last edited by Zakkarioth; 2012-11-22 at 07:17 AM.
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    Not the abomination it has become...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zakkarioth View Post
    Making sure he use every global available is also something you might wanna look into in case he is not doing this.
    This aswell.

    Paladin tanks can really use every single global available to them. I am sitting at 13500 haste in raids and still I never have a single global when there is nothing I can do.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Elta View Post
    Not sure if a brick to the head may have been more subtle...... lets hope your guildie isn't as smart.
    I was as subtle as I intended to be. Most people won't actually go through the work to pick up my name and my class and then search through my guild roster. If they're that smart at all. I want to help him but my patience isn't unlimited and you all have solidified things I've already mentioned but couldn't nail down solidly just simply due to the fact that I'm most unfamiliar with prot paladins and because my only other exposure is from my husband who stacks haste and is nearly bloody invincible because of it. Healing him is boring as hell. He just doesn't take dmg in a raid setting like my guilds paladin and it's his alt besides.

    So again, thank you. I'm not beyond using this as a tool to help point out that I wasn't incorrect in most of my statements...Now i'm off to the priest forum to subject myself to ridicule and hopefully learn something.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zakkarioth View Post

    Next comes mastery, which further increases the damage reduction from Shield of the Righteous as well as increasing the healing you do with Word of Glory every time you use SotR, this healing part stacks 5 times.

    After that, before dodge and parry, comes Haste, which due to a passive for prot and ret paladins reduces the cooldown and global on your holy power generating abilities which leads to more frequent SotR which again leads to more threat.
    This was a nice little guide but you might want to mention that placing Mastery over Haste is your opinion.

    There are plenty of arguments for one over the other and vice versa so should probably just say pick one and stick with that, benefits as above, to stop the thread devolving into another mastery vs. haste cat fight.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 09:10 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Achtland View Post
    I was as subtle as I intended to be. Most people won't actually go through the work to pick up my name and my class and then search through my guild roster. If they're that smart at all.
    If your guildmate hasn't worked out how to do dailies or enchant his gear properly yet, I don't think we need to worry about him "figuring out" that he is being talked about on MMO-Champ.

    I mean, looking at this gear it seems like he hasn't even worked out how to do heroics properly yet :S
    Last edited by Luciferiuz; 2012-11-22 at 10:10 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    This was a nice little guide but you might want to mention that placing Mastery over Haste is your opinion.

    There are plenty of arguments for one over the other and vice versa so should probably just say pick one and stick with that, benefits as above, to stop the thread devolving into another mastery vs. haste cat fight.
    Well, as most people that read this forums know, I am a strong crusader for haste. However, looking at this tanks armory, I just dont see haste suitable for him which is why even I that prefer haste in 99.99% of cases suggests that he should go for mastery or stamina.

    And naturally, everything said in this thread or any other thread is a matter of personal opinion.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well, as most people that read this forums know, I am a strong crusader for haste. However, looking at this tanks armory, I just dont see haste suitable for him which is why even I that prefer haste in 99.99% of cases suggests that he should go for mastery or stamina.

    And naturally, everything said in this thread or any other thread is a matter of personal opinion.
    Yeah I was referring to Zakk really as the way he set things out didn't leave much room for interpretation. I know you were talking about several builds and gearing strategies earlier on so it's a little more transparent that you see things as transitive instead of being in a fixed state.

    Just in the event that his guildmate does stumble on here, I'd hope he would think to do his own research instead of having his stat order spelled out for him.

  17. #17
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    Well since you generally need a bit of knowledge of the rotation if you're gonna max out haste before mastery, which i highly doubt this paladin has, hence why i put mastery > haste.
    For more advanced players i would suggest haste over mastery any day.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    This aswell.

    Paladin tanks can really use every single global available to them. I am sitting at 13500 haste in raids and still I never have a single global when there is nothing I can do.
    Just being annoyingly picky but as haste lowers your gcd (as you well know), your second sentence is a bit pointless. Just saying
    Keeping it url since 1864.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    Just being annoyingly picky but as haste lowers your gcd (as you well know), your second sentence is a bit pointless. Just saying
    Actually it does. But not the way I orginally thought.
    Haste actually gives you alot MORE to use your GCDs on. Probably why I have never experienced "free gcds".
    Just made a huge wall of text about it, but realised it would be completely off-topic. If you want a detalied explanation feel free to PM me.
    Short version:

    haste - More GC procs = Actually more spells to use
    Does not lower Consecration Duration however lowers cooldown - Which work in both ways, it gives you an additional filler ( reapply Cons before duration is over ). However it still have cons on an 9s CD other than that you can reapply it. Which gives you slightly more GCDs.
    Does not affect all GCDs which causes some spells to push your rotation back. = Pushes back your rotation to give you more GCDs to use spells on.

    All in all, I think more haste = less free GCDs. So I was wrong in my original statement, was actually the other way around.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zakkarioth View Post
    Well since you generally need a bit of knowledge of the rotation if you're gonna max out haste before mastery, which i highly doubt this paladin has, hence why i put mastery > haste.
    For more advanced players i would suggest haste over mastery any day.
    Fair enough, although I really don't find out rotation as complex as some people suggest.

    Either way, all the information is now readily available in this thread so mission accomplished.

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